TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Abdelaziz]

and Expensive...

The Turkish Land Forces are lacking modern Equipment.

- Firtina II is still produced like 6 per Year.
- Wheeled Howitzer isn't anywhere to be seen.
- YNHZA 1100 Vehicles, 8x8s and 6x6s.
- Tracked AV 1800 Vehicles.

I don't think there is enough Budget for 1000 Tanks. That would be ridiculous.

Altay will be prioritized over those .. so if there is problem with power groups supply ~ 300-400 tank at least will be produced .. more will be in other futuristic configurations

 

[Merzifonlu]

Altay will be prioritized over those .. so if there is problem with power groups supply ~ 300-400 tank at least will be produced .. more will be in other futuristic configurations

Actually, no. Altay is not a priority. IMO, priority for the our Land Forces at this stage is to create the "terrestrial autonomous armored drone concept" and to prepare the necessary infrastructure.

 

[Abdelaziz]

Actually, no. Altay is not a priority. IMO, priority for the our Land Forces at this stage is to create the "terrestrial autonomous armored drone concept" and to prepare the necessary infrastructure.

I dont agree actually .. turkish land force tanks are outdated .. they need urgently modern tanks ... countries around turkey have modern tanks like abrams , merkava , leopard 2a6,7 , leclerc .. and turkey still have m60 , m48 and leopard a1 !! .. the most urgent needs for turkish land forces are modern tank and modern IFV

 

[Combat-Master]

I dont agree actually .. turkish land force tanks are outdated .. they need urgently modern tanks ... countries around turkey have modern tanks like abrams , merkava , leopard 2a6,7 , leclerc .. and turkey still have m60 , m48 and leopard a1 !! .. the most urgent needs for turkish land forces are modern tank and modern IFV

I agree, Turkey will match the numbers in MBT, but we will see different designs being introduced. We may even see medium tanks being procured to replace M48 Patton tanks.

 

[Merzifonlu]

I dont agree actually .. turkish land force tanks are outdated .. they need urgently modern tanks ... countries around turkey have modern tanks like abrams , merkava , leopard 2a6,7 , leclerc .. and turkey still have m60 , m48 and leopard a1 !! .. the most urgent needs for turkish land forces are modern tank and modern IFV

Turkiye's tanks are outdated, I totally agree with that. But there is one thing you missed: The tank concept itself is outdated! Insisting on the outdated concept of "We will modernize the tanks" will do great harm to Turkiye, which is a money-scarce country. I think a maximum of 250 Altays will be produced. They, too, would do the job of directing the terrestrial armored drones rather than engaging in front-line combat themselves.

The need for modern IFV is another matter. The operational environment has become more deadly to humans than ever before. I can never forget a video from the Yemen War. The Houthis had thrown a (Metis-M?) ATGM on the Saudi military unit of 4-5 people, who had taken refuge in a secluded place to be thought of as bullets and was resting. In this war environment, an IFV capable of protecting soldiers from ATGMs and loitering ammunitions is very important. IMO, the 1500 HP national power pack is actually required for that IFV.

 

[Khagan1923]

We have ~300 L2A4 and ~M60TM in inventory. L2A4 modernization seems to have been dropped from the agenda so those tanks will 100% need to be replaced by Altay. I think 500 would be a good number. L2A4 as well as M60TM can be moved to reserves while Altay takes over frontline duties.

Comparing Russia or even Saudi Arabia to the TSK is a insult. Russia can't even establish Air Superiority against Ukraine whose Air Force is an relic from the Cold-War. It doesn't even posses BVR-AAM, Russia uses radars from the 60s and its AD-Systems have already been established over the last few years to be trash(The irony we bought one of those sytems'). Saudi Arabia, really? Do I need to say anything?


Stop insulting the TSK by comparing them to those two countries. Always love it when people say Tanks are over and their examples are the SAA, Russia and Saudi Arabia.

 

[Zafer]

Technology is changing and electrification is a thing, active protection is a thing, directed energy weapons is a thing, automation is a thing, artificial intelligence is a thing, sensor fusion, ground air integration are things now. There needs to be designs that take into account such considerations so I guess smaller number of each varying capabilities will be opted for specialized and effective force units. And you also need to bring these capabilities to table in due time. So tank business is not a one time thing but a continuous one.

 

[Abdelaziz]

Turkiye's tanks are outdated, I totally agree with that. But there is one thing you missed: The tank concept itself is outdated! Insisting on the outdated concept of "We will modernize the tanks" will do great harm to Turkiye, which is a money-scarce country. I think a maximum of 250 Altays will be produced. They, too, would do the job of directing the terrestrial armored drones rather than engaging in front-line combat themselves.

The need for modern IFV is another matter. The operational environment has become more deadly to humans than ever before. I can never forget a video from the Yemen War. The Houthis had thrown a (Metis-M?) ATGM on the Saudi military unit of 4-5 people, who had taken refuge in a secluded place to be thought of as bullets and was resting. In this war environment, an IFV capable of protecting soldiers from ATGMs and loitering ammunitions is very important. IMO, the 1500 HP national power pack is actually required for that IFV.

Imo tanks era is not over as claimed .. in the upcoming period .. the arms manufacturers will focus mainly on drones counter measures .. aktive protection measures are maturing rapidly .. this will increase the survival of the tank .. tanks are very important for land forces .. they cannot be replaced

 

[TheInsider]

Tanks are still important but the days of the 60+ ton behemoth tanks are over. Tanks will evolve. Lighter tanks(~50 tons) with less crew, even lighter optionally manned tanks, and even lighter robotic/unmanned tanks will appear.

Advanced nations can build lighter tanks without sacrificing armor protection if they remove one or two crew members (decreased internal volume which means lighter tanks) and replace their duties with automation and AI.

We should cut our Altay project short and quickly move on to those topics as we are well suited to develop those systems.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Infantry soldier in the field, is under a lot of threat at the moment. He can be prey to sharp shooters from far away.
So because of that, do we need to stop sending infantry in to battle?
No! We teach him not to stick his head out too much and provide him with necessary bulletproof vests etc., give him heavy machine gun and artillery cover and send him in to the battle ground.
Tanks are the same. They were invincible at one time. Then they were only matched by other tanks. Now they are easy prey if utilised in the same manner as they were in WW2. We need to have good armour/ERA, hide it well, give it a lot of fire power and protect it with active/passive protection systems, safeguard the crew better in a cage and use them very differently to what old tanks were used as. As a fighting machine on the ground, there is very little that can actually match the capability of a tank. So they are still vital part of land forces. But with increasing unit prices and ease of being falling prey to ATGMs, as well as their deployment method, their quantity in battleground will have to be seriously reconsidered.

 

[Zafer]

Advanced robotic drones like Skynet can kill all of them.
Small helicopters powered by small turbine engines like the TJ90 can be good precursors to it.

 

[Ruhnama]

I agree, Turkey will match the numbers in MBT, but we will see different designs being introduced. We may even see medium tanks being procured to replace M48 Patton tanks.

just hope this, if TSK replace m48 for marine navy and army to replace the M48 tank

 

[Combat-Master]

just hope this, if TSK replace m48 for marine navy and army to replace the M48 tank

M48 is definitely are the most concerning, they should be the first ones to go into retirement followed by M60 and Leopard 1. Though I'm in favour of replacing them with medium tanks - of which we have two to choose from FNSS or OTOKAR.

 

[Lool]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509423953567264770

 

[Combat-Master]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509423953567264770

Oh wow, he unblocked me on Twitter

 

[Combat-Master]

MKEK 120mm armour piercing tank munitions

120mm Tank Ammunition	MKE MOD 310	MKE MOD 290
Illustration
Type	High Explosive Anti-Tank, Multipurpose, Tracer	Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot, Tracer
Complete Round Weight	25kg	20kg
Complete Round Length	984 mm	984 mm
Cartridge Case	Combustible case	Combustible case
Muzzle Velocity	925 m/s	1705±15 m/s
Effective Range	~ 2000 m	~ 2000 m
Penetration	400 mm (Angled 34° steel plate)	658 mm (Angled 70° steel plate)

 

[TNAHN]

What is the latest situation in the Akkor project? We even watched the test video of the batu engine, but we could not see a single video of akkor. It has been more than 10 years since the project started, what is the reason for this delay?

 

[Reality show]

What is the latest situation in the Akkor project? We even watched the test video of the batu engine, but we could not see a single video of akkor. It has been more than 10 years since the project started, what is the reason for this delay?

Everything is unclear when it comes to turkish defense projects and products .

 

[Baljak]

MKEK 120mm armour piercing tank munitions

120mm Tank Ammunition	MKE MOD 310	MKE MOD 290
Illustration	View attachment 42458	View attachment 42459
Type	High Explosive Anti-Tank, Multipurpose, Tracer	Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot, Tracer
Complete Round Weight	25kg	20kg
Complete Round Length	984 mm	984 mm
Cartridge Case	Combustible case	Combustible case
Muzzle Velocity	925 m/s	1705±15 m/s
Effective Range	~ 2000 m	~ 2000 m
Penetration	400 mm (Angled 34° steel plate)	658 mm (Angled 70° steel plate)

The 120 mm ammunition produced by MKE has almost the same performance and specifications as the 120 mm ammunition M322, M325 made in Israel, which I have often seen at Defense Expo. It's probably an ammunition produced by obtaining license rights from Elbit Systems in Israel.

When Otokar developed Altay tanks, they imported DM53 and DM63 to conduct firepower tests for Altay tanks, but now they are banned from importing German ammunition, so they seem to be supplied with ammunition from Israel. Considering that the ammunition used by Turkish forces in Syria in the past in Sabra tanks was also K276 APFSDS imported from South Korea, receiving ammunition from Israel is not a bad option. It is a smart two-track strategy for Turkey to supplied 120 mm tank ammunition from Israel because of the German arms embargo.

And some people might think, "Why doesn't Turkiye develop its own 120 mm ammunition?"

Currently, only 11 countries in the world develop and produce 120 mm ammunition by themselves. So can't other countries develop their own ammunition? No, not at all. They know that it is much more cost effective to import and use ammunition from abroad than to develop and produce it on their own. We should focus on economic reasons for this.

I don't need to be unnecessarily serious here, but I want to explain. The development and production of 120 mm ammunition requires research and development including metallurgy, chemical, composite materials, electrical engineering, and ballistic engineering, and an independent production plant that produces penetrators (Tungsten alloy), propellants (Plasticizer), sabot (Light metal), and combustible cartridge case (Cellulose compounds).

And if Turkey develops and produces its own ammunition, how much will it cost to get 120 mm ammunition? Also, if Turkey imports ammunition from Israel, how much would it cost to get 120 mm of ammunition? I understand why the majority of Turkish are obsessed with localization, but the military industry is also an area where cost and efficiency are important.

Considering the current political and economic situation in Turkey, Turkey will need a lot of money to develop and produce 120mm ammunition on its own. Assuming Turkey can buy 10 120 mm ammunition from Israel at a cost of $1,000, if Turkey develops and produces 120 mm ammunition on its own, it will only get six 120 mm ammunition at $1000. There's a bad example of this: the Altay tank. The estimated cost of producing an Altay tank is 13.75 million dollars, while the cost of producing a K2 tank, which was teased a few years ago as an expensive tank, is 8.5 million dollars. Of course, the cost of tank production could go down even further when Altay's mass production. And there are many other reasons why the production cost of Altay tanks has increased.

I know that in Turkey's current political situation, localizing parts is an important issue when developing military weapons. But what I want to say here is that don't have to be too obsessed with localization in the process of developing military weapons. The military industry is also an area where benefits and losses exist in the end.

Conclusion: Dolar molar, Altay tanklarının üretimini durduramaz. (Dollars or nothing can't stop the production of Altay tanks)

 

[Zafer]

I don't know the truth about where the MKE tank ammunition come from but if MKE will not produce that ammo they can go fact themselves. There must be a good reason why Isreal is making them when they can source from muitiple sources.