TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

Combat-Master

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View attachment 42505
The 120 mm ammunition produced by MKE has almost the same performance and specifications as the 120 mm ammunition M322, M325 made in Israel, which I have often seen at Defense Expo. It's probably an ammunition produced by obtaining license rights from Elbit Systems in Israel.

When Otokar developed Altay tanks, they imported DM53 and DM63 to conduct firepower tests for Altay tanks, but now they are banned from importing German ammunition, so they seem to be supplied with ammunition from Israel. Considering that the ammunition used by Turkish forces in Syria in the past in Sabra tanks was also K276 APFSDS imported from South Korea, receiving ammunition from Israel is not a bad option. It is a smart two-track strategy for Turkey to supplied 120 mm tank ammunition from Israel because of the German arms embargo.

And some people might think, "Why doesn't Turkiye develop its own 120 mm ammunition?"

Currently, only 11 countries in the world develop and produce 120 mm ammunition by themselves. So can't other countries develop their own ammunition? No, not at all. They know that it is much more cost effective to import and use ammunition from abroad than to develop and produce it on their own. We should focus on economic reasons for this.

I don't need to be unnecessarily serious here, but I want to explain. The development and production of 120 mm ammunition requires research and development including metallurgy, chemical, composite materials, electrical engineering, and ballistic engineering, and an independent production plant that produces penetrators (Tungsten alloy), propellants (Plasticizer), sabot (Light metal), and combustible cartridge case (Cellulose compounds).

And if Turkey develops and produces its own ammunition, how much will it cost to get 120 mm ammunition? Also, if Turkey imports ammunition from Israel, how much would it cost to get 120 mm of ammunition? I understand why the majority of Turkish are obsessed with localization, but the military industry is also an area where cost and efficiency are important.

Considering the current political and economic situation in Turkey, Turkey will need a lot of money to develop and produce 120mm ammunition on its own. Assuming Turkey can buy 10 120 mm ammunition from Israel at a cost of $1,000, if Turkey develops and produces 120 mm ammunition on its own, it will only get six 120 mm ammunition at $1000. There's a bad example of this: the Altay tank. The estimated cost of producing an Altay tank is 13.75 million dollars, while the cost of producing a K2 tank, which was teased a few years ago as an expensive tank, is 8.5 million dollars. Of course, the cost of tank production could go down even further when Altay's mass production. And there are many other reasons why the production cost of Altay tanks has increased.

I know that in Turkey's current political situation, localizing parts is an important issue when developing military weapons. But what I want to say here is that don't have to be too obsessed with localization in the process of developing military weapons. The military industry is also an area where benefits and losses exist in the end.



View attachment 42507
Conclusion: Dolar molar, Altay tanklarının üretimini durduramaz. (Dollars or nothing can't stop the production of Altay tanks)

There's no probability to it - as part of the Turkish-Israeli M60 Sabra tank modernization programme in which contract included tech transfer of 120mm APFSDS-T and TPCSDS-T rounds to Turkey, Turkey has been producing 120mm round for over a decade.

I don't know where you have gained info on Otokar acquiring tank rounds for Altay, since DM53 and DM63 rounds already exist in Turkish land forces inventory and those tests wouldn't be conducted outside of the Turkish armed forces range so plenty of those rounds exist in Turkey, why would Otokar go to Germany? make it make sense,

MKE recently developed 120mm HE tank round, while yes - it would be more cost effective acquiring from abroad, however no country were selling these round to Turkey. So The the "obsession" as you put it to producing Locally, is there for good reason and these HE rounds were very much needed during operations in Syria.
 

Baljak

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There's no probability to it - as part of the Turkish-Israeli M60 Sabra tank modernization programme in which contract included tech transfer of 120mm APFSDS-T and TPCSDS-T rounds to Turkey, Turkey has been producing 120mm round for over a decade.

I don't know where you have gained info on Otokar acquiring tank rounds for Altay, since DM53 and DM63 rounds already exist in Turkish land forces inventory and those tests wouldn't be conducted outside of the Turkish armed forces range so plenty of those rounds exist in Turkey, why would Otokar go to Germany? make it make sense,

MKE recently developed 120mm HE tank round, while yes - it would be more cost effective acquiring from abroad, however no country were selling these round to Turkey. So The the "obsession" as you put it to producing Locally, is there for good reason and these HE rounds were very much needed during operations in Syria.
K-001.jpg

Thank you for letting me know something new that I didn't know! I could get information about the many ammunition they produce from the catalog provided by MKE.

Bulletproof Performance Test Equipment of the ADD.png

Bulletproof Performance Test Equipment (It was very difficult to find pictures that were more than 10 years old)

I work for a semiconductor company now, but the Korean company I worked for supplied bulletproof performance test equipment to the National Ballistic Protection Center in Turkey, which was established in October 2010

Since 2010, all armored vehicles and tanks manufactured in Turkey have been tested for bulletproof performance by the National Ballistic Protection Center.

In addition, a Korean ammunition producer in charge of designing Altay's composite armor and transferring bulletproof test technology tested the armour performance of Altay tanks with DM63, and DM63 failed to penetrate Altay's front armor and side turret armor. (This is a fact that German friends will be sad to know)
 
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Hexciter

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I work for a semiconductor company now, but the Korean company I worked for supplied bulletproof performance test equipment to the National Ballistic Protection Center in Turkey, which was established in October 2010

Since 2010, all armored vehicles and tanks manufactured in Turkey have been tested for bulletproof performance by the National Ballistic Protection Center.

In addition, a Korean ammunition producer in charge of designing Altay's composite armor and transferring bulletproof test technology tested the armour performance of Altay tanks with DM63, and DM63 failed to penetrate Altay's front armor and side turret armor. (This is a fact that German friends will be sad to know)
A very nice contribution from the defencehub’s S. Korean mod
Thanks
 

Huelague

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View attachment 42614
Thank you for letting me know something new that I didn't know! I could get information about the many ammunition they produce from the catalog provided by MKE.

View attachment 42615
Bulletproof Performance Test Equipment (It was very difficult to find pictures that were more than 10 years old)

I work for a semiconductor company now, but the Korean company I worked for supplied bulletproof performance test equipment to the National Ballistic Protection Center in Turkey, which was established in October 2010

Since 2010, all armored vehicles and tanks manufactured in Turkey have been tested for bulletproof performance by the National Ballistic Protection Center.

In addition, a Korean ammunition producer in charge of designing Altay's composite armor and transferring bulletproof test technology tested the armour performance of Altay tanks with DM63, and DM63 failed to penetrate Altay's front armor and side turret armor. (This is a fact that German friends will be sad to know)
When were the tests made?
 

Yasar_TR

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does that mean its better than Leopard 2's armor?
Not necessarily. It only means that Altay has, as good a protection as the comparable German tanks. That in turn means that Turkey and any other country that chooses Altay, will have a tank with top notch ballistic protection. (Which means German armour technology is not unique)
 

Merzifonlu

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German passive armour technology is not unique. Active armour technology? An another discussion topic.
 

I_Love_F16

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I’m very excited for the Altay to be honest. Overall it's a very good tank. I hope the engine and transmission issues are finally solved. Can’t wait for the mass production of the tank.
 

Baljak

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Altay's Armor vs Leopard's Armor. I honestly don't know about this

The company I worked for was only involved in the supply and operation of bulletproof performance testing equipment. I think Roketsan in Turkey or Samyang Comtech and Poongsan in Korea know better about the detailed performance of Altay armor.

These three companies participated in the design of the Altay tank's composite armor. Samyang Comtech, which developed K2's composite armor, and Poongsan, a South Korean ammunition producer, were involved in the design and performance test of the composite armor.

I remember that the design project of Altay Tank, which involved Hyundai Rotem and Korean partner companies, started in 2009 and ended in 2015. By the end of 2015, Hyundai Rotem and other Korean companies were involved in the design. Since the FTR model (P1), which was the first prototype of the Altay tank, was developed, my company has not been involved in bulletproof performance testing.

At the time I was just an inexperienced young employee and it was my boss who was involved in the operation of the bulletproof testing equipment. Unfortunately, I didn't actually see Altay.

The only thing my boss knew was that Korean-made K279 and German-made DM63 ammunition were used for armor performance tests, and all these rounds failed to penetrate Altay's front and side turret armor. I remember this period as 2011, It is possible that the armor performance of the MTR model was tested before the Altay FTR model was developed.
 
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AzeriTank

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Althay's Armor vs Leopard's Armor. I honestly don't know about this

The company I worked for was only involved in the supply and operation of bulletproof performance testing equipment. I think Roketsan in Turkey or Samyang Comtech and Poongsan in Korea know better about the detailed performance of Altay armor.

These three companies participated in the design of the Altay tank's composite armor. Samyang Comtech, which developed K2's composite armor, and Pungsan, a South Korean ammunition producer, were involved in the design and performance test of the composite armor.

I remember that the design project of Altay Tank, which involved Hyundai Rotem and Korean partner companies, started in 2009 and ended in 2015. By the end of 2015, Hyundai Rotem and other Korean companies were involved in the design. Since the FTR model (P1), which was the first prototype of the Altay tank, was developed, my company has not been involved in bulletproof performance testing.

At the time I was just an inexperienced young employee and it was my boss who was involved in the operation of the bulletproof testing equipment. Unfortunately, I didn't actually see Altay.

The only thing my boss knew was that the K279 ammunition and the German DM63 ammunition produced in Korea were used for armor performance tests, and all of these bullets could not penetrate the front and side turret armor of Altay. I remember this period as 2011, It is possible that the armor performance of the MTR model was tested before the Altay FTR model was developed.
we all know that Turkey had armor problem until 2-3 years ago. It was dependent on other countries. However, to overcome this issue, Turkey invested in Finland and UK company that specifically specialized in Armor, they even moved their factories to Turkey.
 

UkroTurk

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Why doesn't Mr. Erdoğan give ALTAY TANK project to Baykar Holding as They have magic touch that Turkish Aerospace İnstitution couldn't give to UAVs?

@Combat-Master

İ heard you were looking for me
 
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Hexciter

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Marlii DFI

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I don’t think that you will get a response from Otokar. Altay’s rights not belonging to her and a MBT is an offensive weapon which kind are restricted to export to India.
K2 black panther is participating .but many in india were astonished to see Turkey get a RFI response for tanks from india as there were calls to cancel the navy tanker deal.but interesting to see Turkey getting their project successfull when we ourselves are in disarray on our own indigenous tank
 

Hexciter

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K2 black panther is participating .but many in india were astonished to see Turkey get a RFI response for tanks from india as there were calls to cancel the navy tanker deal.but interesting to see Turkey getting their project successfull when we ourselves are in disarray on our own indigenous tank
May be at a level of sub components with K2 or a like. e.g. Armour as it’s not offensive.
 

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As far as tanks are concerned i suspect that in the future they will operate in unison with armed UAV's designed entirely to help protect tanks either from air or potential ambushes.

I can see tanks moving while having several small armed UAV's operating around and above them using AI connected to the tanks crew providing intelligence and protection.
 

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I'm more suprised self propelled howitzers aren't considered more important especially with drones helping with targeting. There are too many threats to MBTs, considering their max firing range is much shorter.
 

Merzifonlu

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There are too many threats to MBTs, considering their max firing range is much shorter.
+1 Exactly! For this reason, the classic MBT concept has collapsed.

If tanks are to exist on battlefields, they have to undertake a different task than they do now. Of course, they will be equipped according to these new task descriptions. To me, this new task is to command unmanned armored terrestrial drones (and if necessary aerial drones) around them. Therefore, the new "MBTs" must be agile, small, well armored and well camouflaged. They will obtain their major firepower through the drones they command.
 
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