TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Lool]

Altay is a fiasco because of its 14 million euro price tag.

Wtf? 14 million euros!? That is a fqing rip off
Abrams tanks cost around 4.5-5.5 million dollars per tank and Altay is triple that price tag? Insanity

 

[Heartbang]

Wtf? 14 million euros!? That is a fqing rip off
Abrams tanks cost around 4.5-5.5 million dollars per tank and Altay is triple that price tag? Insanity

larger production volumes can help with that.

 

[Lool]

@TheInsider
what about BMC Power? Werent they supposed to develop marine engines? All what I saw is the BATU engine and that is it

 

[Yasar_TR]

Wtf? 14 million euros!? That is a fqing rip off
Abrams tanks cost around 4.5-5.5 million dollars per tank and Altay is triple that price tag? Insanity

Abrams M1A2 with today’s dollar value is 10.5 million dollars a piece at cost. (With inflation adjustment)
That is 9.75 million Euros each.
US engineering labour cost is 10 to 12 times more than Turkish equivalents. (~38dollars per hour for USA - ~3 dollars per hour for Turkey) So you would expect a much lower price for Turkish products.

 

[TheInsider]

Vanilla Altay will be outdated when it achieves operational capability. It is delayed so much that subsystems of Altay is being redesigned to keep them up to date. Altay brings no substantial capability increase over a modernized M-60 or Leo-2A4. Altay costs 14 million euros per unit. It was ready for mass production by the end of 2016. There was no embargo at that time. We could have bought 50 or 100 engines if we took a decision at that moment.


IMHO we should have started the production of Altay as early as possible and should have given the first tanks to the training brigade.

I don't know anything about a marine engine derived from BATU. It is possible but i don't think buying a marine engine off the shelf at that size will ever be a problem.

 

[Zafer]

You can't put a price tag on an independent new tank.

 

[CAN_TR]

Altay T1 & T2 configuration are becoming outdated anyways, they better focus on the T3 with unmanned turret, autoloader and redesign the hull inside like T14 Aramata. Quality over Quantity, the age of large Tank divisions is over TSK should really think about a smaller but better equiped/trained armored units.

The ongoing conflicts around the world are showing us that Tanks without IFV and Infantry support are extremly vulnerable against Infantry armed with AT weapons. Also APS (active protection systems) is a must have in order to defend against more modern top-attack ATGM's and UCAV's.

Another priority of TSK should be modern IFV's, min. 30mm gun, ATGM pod and APS. I personally also believe that the modernization of ACV-15 is wasted money. Kaplan MT is another cheap and indegenius option for us the German have a similar Medium Tank build on the Lynx hull.

We have money for many useless things which i will not mention but when it comes to military procurement funds are lacking everywhere.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

The Altay serial production contract covers 250 tanks and its total cost is approximately 4 billion Euros. Although this appears to be a value of 16 million Euros per tank, the reality is not like that. The Altay serial production contract covers not only the production of 250 serial production Altay T1 and T2 tanks, but also the BATU 1500hp engine, the development of T3 unmanned turret development/production, the establishment of the Tank excellence center and overall logistics support, so it is not possible to calculate the unit cost of Altay with the available data.

 

[TheInsider]

The unit cost of Altay is 13 to 14 million euros. Even at 12 million euros (3billion total for 250 Altay) it is still expensive and I doubt the remaining terms of the contract will cost more than 1 billion.

 

[Baljak]

If the production plan of Altay, which is divided into four stages(T1, T2, T3), is carried out normally, the price may fall below $10 million. The question is whether the production line of the factory that produces Altay is maintained continuously or whether an order request is received from the customer.

The expected unit price of the Altay tank could have been cheaper if the manufacturers of each part of the tank had maintained the factory's production line since the release of the last prototype of the Altay. If the factories that produce each part of the tank are unable to maintain their production lines, it is natural for the tank's production cost to rise. This is not a big surprise. Type 10, Japan's newest main battle tank, only produces about 13 low-rate-productions a year, so the price of type 10 is $15 million.

Guys, considering that Altay's 120 mm 55 caliber gun, advanced hydraulic suspension for recoil absorption and maneuverability, optical and electronic devices for hunter-killer, soft-kill and hard-kill APS, this price is not that high.

Altay is not just a third-generation tank, but a tank that can be classified as a fourth-generation tank. It is nonsense to say that Altay is unconditionally expensive, ignoring the various high-tech features included in Altay

 

[fire starter]

If the production plan of Altay, which is divided into four stages(T1, T2, T3), is carried out normally, the price may fall below $10 million. The question is whether the production line of the factory that produces Altay is maintained continuously or whether an order request is received from the customer.

The expected unit price of the Altay tank could have been cheaper if the manufacturers of each part of the tank had maintained the factory's production line since the release of the last prototype of the Altay. If the factories that produce each part of the tank are unable to maintain their production lines, it is natural for the tank's production cost to rise. This is not a big surprise. Type 10, Japan's newest main battle tank, only produces about 13 low-rate-productions a year, so the price of type 10 is $15 million.

Guys, considering that Altay's 120 mm 55 caliber gun, advanced hydraulic suspension for recoil absorption and maneuverability, optical and electronic devices for hunter-killer, soft-kill and hard-kill APS, this price is not that high.

Altay is not just a third-generation tank, but a tank that can be classified as a fourth-generation tank. It is nonsense to say that Altay is unconditionally expensive, ignoring the various high-tech features included in Altay

What is the criteria of 4th gen tank.

 

[MarcusZidanta]

What is the criteria of 4th gen tank.

There isn't a criteria, the generations mean newer or older. Generally speaking unmanned turrets, active protection systems, advanced electronics, gunfire detection, advanced composite armour and maybe even stealth but this is a grey area.

Some of these factors make for example the K2 Panther better than German Leopard 2s. Contrary to all the fanboys.
Indian FMBT fits that criteria on paper at least, not sure. We don't have prototype for Altay with South korean engine yet.

Tanks are not what they were in WW2. You can't just spearhead blitzkrieg into the enemy. Advanced communication and coordination of Air Forces around the world means air superiority is everything in modern warfare, you can see that in ukraine-russia war.

 

[fire starter]

The Altay serial production contract covers 250 tanks and its total cost is approximately 4 billion Euros. Although this appears to be a value of 16 million Euros per tank, the reality is not like that. The Altay serial production contract covers not only the production of 250 serial production Altay T1 and T2 tanks, but also the BATU 1500hp engine, the development of T3 unmanned turret development/production, the establishment of the Tank excellence center and overall logistics support, so it is not possible to calculate the unit cost of Altay with the available data.

View attachment 44383

Is it possible to add unmanned turret in existing tank. Won't it require significant design change.

 

[Yasar_TR]

If the production plan of Altay, which is divided into four stages(T1, T2, T3), is carried out normally, the price may fall below $10 million. The question is whether the production line of the factory that produces Altay is maintained continuously or whether an order request is received from the customer.

The expected unit price of the Altay tank could have been cheaper if the manufacturers of each part of the tank had maintained the factory's production line since the release of the last prototype of the Altay. If the factories that produce each part of the tank are unable to maintain their production lines, it is natural for the tank's production cost to rise. This is not a big surprise. Type 10, Japan's newest main battle tank, only produces about 13 low-rate-productions a year, so the price of type 10 is $15 million.

Guys, considering that Altay's 120 mm 55 caliber gun, advanced hydraulic suspension for recoil absorption and maneuverability, optical and electronic devices for hunter-killer, soft-kill and hard-kill APS, this price is not that high.

Altay is not just a third-generation tank, but a tank that can be classified as a fourth-generation tank. It is nonsense to say that Altay is unconditionally expensive, ignoring the various high-tech features included in Altay

All of what you say are well noted. But Abrams M1A2 tank in it’s latest guise, is arguably the top tank today amongst the tanks like leopard and black panther with it’s more advanced armour, fire control system etc. Abrams M1 has been battle tested over and over again and almost all relevant parts have been replaced with more advanced ones. It’s engine performance increased and consumption of fuel decreased.
It costs 9.5million Euros a piece with US production costs.
It may sell for 15-16 million Euros when Gulf states want to purchase it. But the cost to US army is estimated at 9.5 million Euros.
I agree it costs more to produce few units. There are economies of scale in play when it comes to producing vehicles like this. But you calculate your unit price according to how many you want to produce and sell within a given timeframe. You then add your development costs and distribute this cost to each unit accordingly.
Also South Korean and US manufacturing cost bases are much higher than Turkish ones. Many engineering companies I know in UK, that do not want to produce parts and machinery in China, are going to Turkey for it’s lower production costs. Therefore 14million Euro price tag seems rather high. Even exorbitant!

 

[TheInsider]

BTW we can kiss goodbye to the Altay factory and tank excellence center. As the new admin of BMC made clear they won't be investing in a new factory. BMC is demolishing the Karasu tank factory construction field.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

The unit cost of Altay is 13 to 14 million euros. Even at 12 million euros (3billion total for 250 Altay) it is still expensive and I doubt the remaining terms of the contract will cost more than 1 billion.

Germany spent 45 million Euros to integrate Thropy APS into 17 Leopard tanks. This cost each Tropy APS to an average of 2.6 million Euros per tank for Germany a few years ago.

The estimated Trophy cost for Greece is predicted as 600 million Euros for 183 Leopard2A4 in Greek defence pages. This amounts to 3.2 million euros per tank at current price.

In this context, the unit cost of Leopard-2A4s with Thropy APS for Greeks will be around 6-7 million euros on average for an electronic + armor upgrade program according to costs shared on net.

From this point of view, the total cost of 4 billion Euros together with standard Akkor APS for 250 Altay T1/T2 + T3 unmanned turret + BATU 1500hp engine + overall logistics support + tank excellence center isn't expensive.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

BTW we can kiss goodbye to the Altay factory and tank excellence center. As the new admin of BMC made clear they won't be investing in a new factory. BMC is demolishing the Karasu tank factory construction field.

Tosyali is demolishing the Karasu tank factory and transporting the factory parts to the Ankara Kahramankazan. Most likely, they are going to invest for a tank serial production and R&D center in Ankara, not in Sakarya Karasu.

 

[TheInsider]

So no factory till 2026. What can I say, great?

 

[TheInsider]

Germany spent 45 million Euros to integrate Thropy APS into 17 Leopard tanks. This cost each Tropy APS to an average of 2.6 million Euros per tank for Germany a few years ago.

The estimated Trophy cost for Greece is predicted as 600 million Euros for 183 Leopard2A4 in Greek defence pages. This amounts to 3.2 million euros per tank at current price.

In this context, the unit cost of Leopard-2A4s with Thropy APS for Greeks will be around 6-7 million euros on average for an electronic + armor upgrade program according to costs shared on net.

From this point of view, the total cost of 4 billion Euros together with standard Akkor APS for 250 Altay T1/T2 + T3 unmanned turret + BATU 1500hp engine + overall logistics support + tank excellence center isn't expensive.

Germany can spend whatever it likes. Germany will probably pay 30 million euros for a UAV like TB2 if Germans companies develop it.

 

[I_Love_F16]

So no factory till 2026. What can I say, great?

Damn that hurts