TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[TheInsider]

And we are back to square 1.

Obsolete doesn't mean useless. It will be the best tank we have when finally we see it in service but we should start designing the tank of 2030s today. That way, when we produce the first 250 units of Altay by 2030 we can switch to a next-gen tank. Half a decade is not much time. We can't continue producing Altays while next-gen tanks become available post-2030.

I wouldn't be surprised if the next-gen Korean tank starts mobility tests before 2030.

Here look at this.

South Korea's 2030s NG-MBT Main Battle Tank promises advanced capabilities | Defense News November 2023 Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army year 2023 | Archive News year

South Korea's 2030s NG-MBT Main Battle Tank promises advanced capabilities

armyrecognition.com

 

[Timur]

The problem with the drones is that it is a fairly new thing especially in the way they are using them after DEASH's example. The technology to counter this threat is also decades old, but due to the reality that there was not a threat like this before, nobody integrated a countermeasure. Also the war in Ukraine is fought with Sovyet technology and when drones came nobody was prepared. I would like to see how a 400, 1000 or even 5000 dollars worth drone will operate in jammed environment. The best thing it can do is RTB. Just integrate a cheap jammer and you are done with this threat. It may be a jammer that is jamming a small perimeter around the tank or a directed jammer integrated into the RCWS. Not a problem. All our new batches of MRAPs are equipped with jammers already so we know it is possible and it will not be something difficult or costly to implement.

In future, drones that have the autonomy to perform missions in EW environment trough AI decision making may be a problem, but again it is nothing that can not be countered. these drones can be effectively countered both trough APS systems as they are not even flying fast (nor the munitions they drop) or other hard kill measures can be implemented again trough the RCWS system of the tank/armored vehicle.

I think many people here are too harsh on the industry and armed forces for still not implementing these countermeasures. It's not tank's fail, but rather the slow bureaucracy and the conservatism within the armed forces (not only TSK). It is always slow with these things.

just wait for AI it will give great friend and foe identification.. for now its not realy ready but in years this will revolutionize drones and missiles and they will be even great in highly jammed areas

 

[Radonsider]

And going back to tanks of the future, when you put 4 AESA radars on an armored vehicle and an APS that costs what, 5-6 million dollars?, putting enough non reactive and composite plates that can stop a RPG-29 is basically a necessity. It needs to be able to stop dumbest short range rockets as well so that you won't lose all that tech easily. That's why very lightly armored fire platforms don't make sense. Look at Gaza. Lots of hits, miniscule number of penetrations. An RPG is nothing for a Merkava or a Namer, but it would make short work of any other armored vehicle.

You know what (kinda) works against those? Cope cages with integrated ERA

People were joking about the "cope cages" but they have proven themselves to be a good counter against FPV dropped munitions and ones with ERA integrated work against RPG-riding FPVs

 

[Huelague]

130 or 140mm main gun.

Against what targets?

 

[UkroTurk]

Altay is obsolete. Tanks of the 2030s will be inherently different with
3-man crew
50 tonnes of total weight
Smaller volume and lower silhouette.
Autoloader and unmanned turret
Hybrid propulsion
130 or 140mm main gun.
Next-gen internal combustion engines like American ACE opposed piston or MTU 892 Xa

Altay will have a T3 version
The T3 version will have an autoloader and unmanned turret and currently, this is as far as it goes.
If we expand the T3 project we might develop a 130 or 140mm gun for T3 and a hybrid propulsion system but this is limit of Altay.

We can't magically lower its weight to 50 tonnes.
We can't magically lower the total volume/dimensions and silhouette.
We can't magically turn it into a 3-man crew tank.

400 ALTAY MBT will be useful and lethal for next 40 years.
400 Altay won't be useless in 40 years.

Look, today still we could welcome medium weight tanks, IFVs with 120mm gun.

Low silhouette was the doctrine of WW2. Today low IR sign is more important. We could dress Anti-Heat skin on ALTAY. Also ALTAY could be upgraded with APS etc.

Noone said here , Turkish Land Forces would order thousands of Altay.

In future,There will always be an option for ALTAY next gen.

Who knows, after ten years manned tanks ( with 3 crew ) might be absolute..

 

[Quasar]

-ALTAY as it is, will be a modern and still some how affordable tank (and we need to keep it that way for a while) , sure Fantasy tanks do exist as prototypes or in very limited numbers... only a jammer can be expected as a potential needed near future upgrade to Altay for now

-ALTAY is the response to current threats and Türkiye's current potantial adversaries

 

[uçuyorum]

-ALTAY as it is, will be a modern and still some how affordable tank (and we need to keep it that way for a while) , sure Fantasy tanks do exist as prototypes or in very limited numbers... only a jammer can be expected as a potential needed near future upgrade to Altay for now

-ALTAY is the response to current threats and Türkiye's current potantial adversaries

I can't stop wondering if a brand new design, not specifically for Altay but for MBT concept in general, could come up with an actually useful and streamlined version of a "copecage" that reduces the impact of drones and smaller top attack munitions and one that doesn't impact the RCWS negatively

 

[TheInsider]

We can't sell Altay when AbramsX, K3, and KF51 Panther become available globally and this is not a distant future we are discussing. Those three projects gained momentum, they are not on paper projects.

Obsolete doesn't mean useless. An AK-47 is a useful rifle but I would rather have an MPT if I can.

 

[Radonsider]

We can't sell Altay when AbramsX, K3, and KF51 Panther become available globally and this is not a distant future we are discussing. Those three projects gained momentum, they are not on paper projects.

Obsolete doesn't mean useless. An AK-47 is a useful rifle but I would rather have an MPT if I can.

None of them are "real" tanks. They are all -failed- TDs

 

[UkroTurk]

AK-47

Comparing today's design with ancient AK-47??!!
BTW MPT is AR-15 platform and since the 70ies , the rifle is still useful.

The ALTAY MBT has latest and most fresh design.

 

[CAN_TR]

We can't sell Altay when AbramsX, K3, and KF51 Panther become available globally and this is not a distant future we are discussing. Those three projects gained momentum, they are not on paper projects.

Obsolete doesn't mean useless. An AK-47 is a useful rifle but I would rather have an MPT if I can.

Altay T3 is pretty much up to date even in the next decade, the only thing that needs an upgrade is the tank gun from 120mm to at least 130mm and a urgent solution to counter new threats like small UAV's and FPV's.

The futuristic/stealth look of AbramsX and K3 are more bling bling than functional.

 

[Radonsider]

Altay T3 is pretty much up to date even in the next decade, the only thing that needs an upgrade is the tank gun from 120mm to at least 130mm and a urgent solution to counter new threats like small UAV's and FPV's.

The futuristic/stealth look of AbramsX and K3 are more bling bling than functional.


View attachment 65725

2 points from that chart is already present in Altay rn (VR/AR thing and guided munitions (Tanok)

 

[Bogeyman]

Ukrainian tank officer speaking to El Mundo

- The era of tanks on the battlefield is now a thing of the past, thanks to drones.

- Drones rule the battlefield and there are thousands of them. The tank is now the most vulnerable weapon. They will not be used soon.

EL MUNDO visita por tercera vez a los tanquistas de la Brigada 92, acosados por los drones: "Nunca sabes si volverás vivo la noche siguiente"

Andrii no desea hablar de la guerra porque, después de varios encuentros con este reportero desde los primeros compases de la invasión, tiene una gran noticia que dar: acaba de ser

amp.elmundo.es

Ukrainian tank officers think that using tanks is tantamount to suicide.

 

[YeşilVatan]

Ukrainian tank officer speaking to El Mundo

- The era of tanks on the battlefield is now a thing of the past, thanks to drones.

- Drones rule the battlefield and there are thousands of them. The tank is now the most vulnerable weapon. They will not be used soon.

EL MUNDO visita por tercera vez a los tanquistas de la Brigada 92, acosados por los drones: "Nunca sabes si volverás vivo la noche siguiente"

Andrii no desea hablar de la guerra porque, después de varios encuentros con este reportero desde los primeros compases de la invasión, tiene una gran noticia que dar: acaba de ser

amp.elmundo.es

Ukrainian tank officers think that using tanks is tantamount to suicide.

One has to keep in mind that Russian-Ukrainian situation is pretty unique, as both can't get air dominance over the battlespace. This is pretty rare case, coupled with wide use of ATGMs, leads to stabilized lines and trench warfare which renders tanks ineffective.

 

[Nutuk]

Well the use of tank has certainly a high challenge with drones, however we also do not have anything yet to replace the tank.

Using a tank is challenging, not using a tank is equally challenging

 

[Bogeyman]

One has to keep in mind that Russian-Ukrainian situation is pretty unique, as both can't get air dominance over the battlespace. This is pretty rare case, coupled with wide use of ATGMs, leads to stabilized lines and trench warfare which renders tanks ineffective.

The threat here is related to very low altitude air defense. It is now possible to destroy tanks with mortars released from UAVs. It is very easy for active protection systems to run out of cartridges. And micro kamikaze drones are raining down from the sky like bullets. Even if Ukraine retains control of the airspace, it will still not alleviate the threats to these tanks.

 

[Anmdt]

The threat here is related to very low altitude air defense. It is now possible to destroy tanks with mortars released from UAVs. It is very easy for active protection systems to run out of cartridges. And micro kamikaze drones are raining down from the sky like bullets. Even if Ukraine retains control of the airspace, it will still not alleviate the threats to these tanks.

In my opinion simple Jammers like the one Meteksan developed for tanks would also intervene with those mortar-RPG carrying FPV drones. I am not an expert on the topic but i know FPV channels are analogue and fixed, easy to detect, easy to jam.

 

[Afif]

In my opinion simple Jammers like the one Meteksan developed for tanks would also intervene with those mortar-RPG carrying FPV drones. I am not an expert on the topic but i know FPV channels are analogue and fixed, easy to detect, easy to jam.

Yes, but the counter point to this, is ubiquity of AI enabled target recognition, and GPS independence terrain based navigation.

 

[Bogeyman]

In my opinion simple Jammers like the one Meteksan developed for tanks would also intervene with those mortar-RPG carrying FPV drones. I am not an expert on the topic but i know FPV channels are analogue and fixed, easy to detect, easy to jam.

While the other side can provide electronic support and attack, I doubt that this tactic will work 100%. Therefore, maintaining electronic warfare superiority even at the tactical level is a critical issue.

 

[Afif]

The M230LF with the ability to fire smart airburst ammunitions for counter-UAS role has been mounted on Abrams X.

When integrated with APS's radars, it will be able to shoot down small FVP drones and quadcopters efficiently.

Plus, it also enables the tank to perform IFV role.