Canada Navy Canada SSK program

[oldcpu]

Hello again everyone! Let’s all get behind this Mark Carney decision! The real work now begins for Canada and the TKMS Type 212CD Germany/Norway sub offering to hammer out the final details before the build begins. If contracts are not signed before the end of 2027 and negotiations go south, don’t forget that Hanwha Ocean waits in the wings!! The KSS III Batch II is a larger & heavier sub (4000+ tonnes) and is also a great choice for Canada and the RCN as well. Again, let’s see what happens by this time + next year and hope it will be a good deal for all!! Cheers!!

I agree. I believe this to be a win-win for the RCN that appears to be playing out.

Both submarines have their advantages ... and it is good to seeing the project move forward.

I think the RCN has a big challenge ahead of it where they need to first keep the existing submarines going, as they form an invaluable personnel experience base for eventual training/maintenance/operation of the Type-212CD.

Further the manpower side of things for the new submarines needs to be sorted, from manning the project office to support not only the final negotiations with TKMS for the Type-212CD, but also to continue staffing that project office to oversee the massive multi-year procurement process,

In parallel the RCN needs to recruit personnel to be trained to both man and maintain the new Type-212CD.

And infrastructure changes in places like Halifax area and Esquimalt area which needs to be monitored by Naval staff, and also if any of the industrial offsets involve submarine equipment then I think the RCN will need to monitor that also.

I don't believe a "Field of Dreams" approach ( "If you build it - they will come" ) will be enough by itself. The RCN (and the CF in general) has what I call a "Crisis of Invisibility" where it would be beneficial to positively improve public awareness of the Canadian Navy so to aid in recruitment, retention, and support for future budgets - all in the interest of preserving Canadian sovereignty.

The entire aspect of potentially operating the Type-212CD in the Arctic raises a number of interesting possibilities, from the possibility of any northern 'mobile base ship' (such, for example, as a hypothetical G-LAAM or even JSS) will likely need to have additional submarine tender functionality added. The question of a global capable (?) possible submarine rescue ship likely needs to be considered. Can a future JSS or hypothetical G-LAAM be modified to have such submarine tender/rescue functionality? Is a new ship required? And if such aspects are deemed useful and fundable, then there could be long lead times for procurement of such, where starting sooner rather than later, may be prudent.

I also wonder if related to both the RCAF and the RCN, if north Arctic airfields may see infrastructure changes, not only to support the RCAF but also support the RCN? The idea being that any potential (hypothetical) Canadian mobile base ship, could have the possibility of rapid urgent support (med-evac or urgent parts) transferred from southern Canada to the Arctic airbase (if appropriate infrastructure there), and then to a hypothetical Arctic submarine tender/mobile base ship, and then to a Type-212CD - which may find such support urgently needed in the Arctic. Such logistics support could possibly increase Arctic patrol times of Type-212CD submarines. Clearly this is massive speculation by myself but I do wonder if logistics aspects (that may have very long lead times to setup) need to be assessed now? ...

Its possible such long range support plans/programs may require relatively early initiation to have available soon after the submarines go operational.

 

[DAVEBLOGGINS]

I agree. I believe this to be a win-win for the RCN that appears to be playing out.

Both submarines have their advantages ... and it is good to seeing the project move forward.

I think the RCN has a big challenge ahead of it where they need to first keep the existing submarines going, as they form an invaluable personnel experience base for eventual training/maintenance/operation of the Type-212CD.

Further the manpower side of things for the new submarines needs to be sorted, from manning the project office to support not only the final negotiations with TKMS for the Type-212CD, but also to continue staffing that project office to oversee the massive multi-year procurement process,

In parallel the RCN needs to recruit personnel to be trained to both man and maintain the new Type-212CD.

And infrastructure changes in places like Halifax area and Esquimalt area which needs to be monitored by Naval staff, and also if any of the industrial offsets involve submarine equipment then I think the RCN will need to monitor that also.

I don't believe a "Field of Dreams" approach ( "If you build it - they will come" ) will be enough by itself. The RCN (and the CF in general) has what I call a "Crisis of Invisibility" where it would be beneficial to positively improve public awareness of the Canadian Navy so to aid in recruitment, retention, and support for future budgets - all in the interest of preserving Canadian sovereignty.

The entire aspect of potentially operating the Type-212CD in the Arctic raises a number of interesting possibilities, from the possibility of any northern 'mobile base ship' (such, for example, as a hypothetical G-LAAM or even JSS) will likely need to have additional submarine tender functionality added. The question of a global capable (?) possible submarine rescue ship likely needs to be considered. Can a future JSS or hypothetical G-LAAM be modified to have such submarine tender/rescue functionality? Is a new ship required? And if such aspects are deemed useful and fundable, then there could be long lead times for procurement of such, where starting sooner rather than later, may be prudent.

I also wonder if related to both the RCAF and the RCN, if north Arctic airfields may see infrastructure changes, not only to support the RCAF but also support the RCN? The idea being that any potential (hypothetical) Canadian mobile base ship, could have the possibility of rapid urgent support (med-evac or urgent parts) transferred from southern Canada to the Arctic airbase (if appropriate infrastructure there), and then to a hypothetical Arctic submarine tender/mobile base ship, and then to a Type-212CD - which may find such support urgently needed in the Arctic. Such logistics support could possibly increase Arctic patrol times of Type-212CD submarines. Clearly this is massive speculation by myself but I do wonder if logistics aspects (that may have very long lead times to setup) need to be assessed now? ...

Its possible such long range support plans/programs may require relatively early initiation to have available soon after the submarines go operational.

Hello "oldcpu". This government decision on the TKMS Type 212 CD (if everything comes to pass by the end of 2027) may be a win-win for both the RCN and Canada. As you said, a lot of things have to be at least "in place" very soon. A Canadian Submarine Tender type vessel (s) will need to be seriously considered. That is why I have been so interested in a Canadian "Mobile Base Vessel (s) for the RCN to not only act as an Amphibious Humanitary Assistance/Disaster Relief (HA/DR) and Command ship, but also do double-duty as a Submarine Tender for our new 212 CD fleet (see below). This is a ship that has not been built......yet. It would need to be based on the Polar Class 2 Arctic Ice Breakers now being built for the Canadian Coast Guard in Vancouver/Davie Shipyards. A vessel that would be at least 30,000 + tonnes with a flight deck and hanger below deck to house a Sqn of CH 148 helos; a Sqn of attack/transport helos; UAVs/XLUUVs/ Submarine Rescue UUVs; with the ability to repair the 212 CD fleet in place. These vessels would be pre-positioned near Arctic Air Bases. A fleet of between 4-6 of these vessels would need to be built here in Canada.

I agree. I believe this to be a win-win for the RCN that appears to be playing out.

Both submarines have their advantages ... and it is good to seeing the project move forward.

I think the RCN has a big challenge ahead of it where they need to first keep the existing submarines going, as they form an invaluable personnel experience base for eventual training/maintenance/operation of the Type-212CD.

Further the manpower side of things for the new submarines needs to be sorted, from manning the project office to support not only the final negotiations with TKMS for the Type-212CD, but also to continue staffing that project office to oversee the massive multi-year procurement process,

In parallel the RCN needs to recruit personnel to be trained to both man and maintain the new Type-212CD.

And infrastructure changes in places like Halifax area and Esquimalt area which needs to be monitored by Naval staff, and also if any of the industrial offsets involve submarine equipment then I think the RCN will need to monitor that also.

I don't believe a "Field of Dreams" approach ( "If you build it - they will come" ) will be enough by itself. The RCN (and the CF in general) has what I call a "Crisis of Invisibility" where it would be beneficial to positively improve public awareness of the Canadian Navy so to aid in recruitment, retention, and support for future budgets - all in the interest of preserving Canadian sovereignty.

The entire aspect of potentially operating the Type-212CD in the Arctic raises a number of interesting possibilities, from the possibility of any northern 'mobile base ship' (such, for example, as a hypothetical G-LAAM or even JSS) will likely need to have additional submarine tender functionality added. The question of a global capable (?) possible submarine rescue ship likely needs to be considered. Can a future JSS or hypothetical G-LAAM be modified to have such submarine tender/rescue functionality? Is a new ship required? And if such aspects are deemed useful and fundable, then there could be long lead times for procurement of such, where starting sooner rather than later, may be prudent.

I also wonder if related to both the RCAF and the RCN, if north Arctic airfields may see infrastructure changes, not only to support the RCAF but also support the RCN? The idea being that any potential (hypothetical) Canadian mobile base ship, could have the possibility of rapid urgent support (med-evac or urgent parts) transferred from southern Canada to the Arctic airbase (if appropriate infrastructure there), and then to a hypothetical Arctic submarine tender/mobile base ship, and then to a Type-212CD - which may find such support urgently needed in the Arctic. Such logistics support could possibly increase Arctic patrol times of Type-212CD submarines. Clearly this is massive speculation by myself but I do wonder if logistics aspects (that may have very long lead times to setup) need to be assessed now? ...

Its possible such long range support plans/programs may require relatively early initiation to have available soon after the submarines go operational.

Hello "oldcpu". This government decision on the TKMS Type 212 CD (if everything comes to pass by the end of 2027) may be a win-win for both the RCN and Canada. As you said, a lot of things have to be at least "in place" very soon. A Canadian Submarine Tender type vessel (s) will need to be seriously considered. That is why I have been so interested in a Canadian "Mobile Base Vessel (s) for the RCN to not only act as an Amphibious Humanitary Assistance/Disaster Relief (HA/DR) and Command ship, but also do double-duty as a Submarine Tender for our new 212 CD fleet (see below). This is a ship that has not been built......yet. It would need to be based on the Polar Class 2 Arctic Ice Breakers now being built for the Canadian Coast Guard in Vancouver/Davie Shipyards. A vessel that would be at least 30,000 + tonnes with a flight deck and hanger below deck to house a Sqn of CH 148 helos; a Sqn of attack/transport helos; UAVs/XLUUVs/ Submarine Rescue UUVs; with the ability to repair the 212 CD fleet in place. These vessels would be pre-positioned near Arctic Air Bases. A fleet of between 4-6 of these vessels would need to be built here in Canada.

Canadian Navy Eyes Ice-Capable Amphibious Landing Ships for Arctic Defence

As climate change accelerates the melting of Arctic ice and opens up new strategic vulnerabilities in Canada's vast northern territories, the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) is revisiting a long-dormant idea: the acquisition of amphibious assault ships tailored for polar operations. Vice-Admiral Angus

readyayeready.com

 

[oldcpu]

Hello "oldcpu". This government decision on the TKMS Type 212 CD (if everything comes to pass by the end of 2027) may be a win-win for both the RCN and Canada. As you said, a lot of things have to be at least "in place" very soon. A Canadian Submarine Tender type vessel (s) will need to be seriously considered. That is why I have been so interested in a Canadian "Mobile Base Vessel (s) for the RCN to not only act as an Amphibious Humanitary Assistance/Disaster Relief (HA/DR) and Command ship, but also do double-duty as a Submarine Tender for our new 212 CD fleet (see below). This is a ship that has not been built......yet. It would need to be based on the Polar Class 2 Arctic Ice Breakers now being built for the Canadian Coast Guard in Vancouver/Davie Shipyards. A vessel that would be at least 30,000 + tonnes with a flight deck and hanger below deck to house a Sqn of CH 148 helos; a Sqn of attack/transport helos; UAVs/XLUUVs/ Submarine Rescue UUVs; with the ability to repair the 212 CD fleet in place. These vessels would be pre-positioned near Arctic Air Bases. A fleet of between 4-6 of these vessels would need to be built here in Canada.

Canadian Navy Eyes Ice-Capable Amphibious Landing Ships for Arctic Defence

As climate change accelerates the melting of Arctic ice and opens up new strategic vulnerabilities in Canada's vast northern territories, the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) is revisiting a long-dormant idea: the acquisition of amphibious assault ships tailored for polar operations. Vice-Admiral Angus

readyayeready.com

i 100% support such an approach.

I fear to a certain extent such a vessel may push the budget in which the RCN can convince their 'political masters' is necessary, but I do believe such is necessary if the Canadian government , who represent the Canadian people, if they wish the RCN to be serious re Canadian northern sovereignty in the Arctic.

IMHO it harps back to my pet peeve about a 'crisis of invisibility'. ... and how far can the RCN go without the Canadian public both aware of the need for the RCN and fully behind in supporting the RCN.

 

[oldcpu]

Hello "oldcpu". This government decision on the TKMS Type 212 CD (if everything comes to pass by the end of 2027) may be a win-win for both the RCN and Canada. As you said, a lot of things have to be at least "in place" very soon. A Canadian Submarine Tender type vessel (s) will need to be seriously considered. That is why I have been so interested in a Canadian "Mobile Base Vessel (s) for the RCN to not only act as an Amphibious Humanitary Assistance/Disaster Relief (HA/DR) and Command ship, but also do double-duty as a Submarine Tender for our new 212 CD fleet (see below). This is a ship that has not been built......yet. It would need to be based on the Polar Class 2 Arctic Ice Breakers now being built for the Canadian Coast Guard in Vancouver/Davie Shipyards.

I've been pondering what capabilities might be useful for an Arctic capable vessel with submarine tender functions, ... and in particular AIP equipped submarines.

That is why I have been so interested in a Canadian "Mobile Base Vessel (s) for the RCN to not only act as an Amphibious Humanitary Assistance/Disaster Relief (HA/DR) and Command ship, but also do double-duty as a Submarine Tender for our new 212 CD fleet (see below). This is a ship that has not been built..

Canada is bordered by three oceans: Pacific, Atlantic, and Arctic. I have had the view that 12 submarines is an excellent number, if one needs to split the submarines between three oceans (ie 4 nominally assigned per ocean). which would then hopefully yield 1 or 2 operational submarines per ocean at any one time.

One 'big' issue with that, is the Arctic, typically, is not a good place for conventional propulsion submarines. Nominally only nuclear propulsion (SSN or SSBNs) venture in the Arctic and for good reason. To get past the ice, it may be necessary to go underneath the ice, and a number of different routes may need be tried, before one finds the 'open' route. Maybe this will get easier with Global Warming, but maybe it won't.

While nuclear submarines are likely mostly limited by food/personnel, AIP submarines are heavily restricted (for under water operation) by how long their AIP system will run. That is typically limited by reactants (LOX/Hydrogen). If AIP restricts submarine underwater range from 21 to 40 days (at 3 to 5 knots) then maybe an AIP submarine could cross the Arctic, but maybe not. It would not have much margin if there are diversions/issues on the way.

While AIP is a Game Changer for conventional submarines, it may not change the game enough for the Canadian Arctic.

That had me thinking again about the "Mobile Base Vessel" pre-positioned in the Arctic. Could such a vessel replenish an AIP equipped conventional boat's reactant.

My first thought was - no. Likely not. Typically such reactant replenishment is only done in 1 or 2 home country naval ports. LOX/hydrogen is trucked in to a Naval base. Replenishing the submarines reactant is a bit risky with safety aspects paramount. Further storing LOX/hydrogen is not so easy.

So I asked myself, could LOX/Hydrogen be created dynamically on a Mobile base ship. I believe it is possible to procure commercial containers that have the capability to create LOX and also create hydrogen. Could such containers be placed on a Mobile Base ship? Well, to create LOX/Hydrogen, i think a large amount of power is needed. Possibly when at anchor, a mobile base ship's gas turbine engine would need to be de-coupled from the shaft, and dedicated to generating electrical power for the containers that create the reactants. Further, water would need be fed into the containers to assist in the hydrogen creation.

Replenishment would likely need finding an ice free land protected shelter in the Arctic, to replenish an AIP submarine.

Is this doable? To the best of my knowledge, no navy has built a supply ship, that can support an AIP equipped submarine by replenishing its reactants. So for the RCN to consider and implement such would be a first.

I suspect it would be very difficult to do.

But ... but ... if successful, a Mobile Base ship that could replenish a Type-212CD submarine's reactant, would be a game changer, in terms of enabling an Arctic patrol capability for such Type-212CD submarines.

=== And - if no Arctic base?

Without a mobile base ship (capable of AIP reactant replenishment) I think a Type-212 CD's "Arctic mission" may only be:
(a) motor from home port (Halifax or Esquimalt) on diesel engines (to preserve AIP reactant) to an Arctic entrance choke point
(b) submerge, switch to AIP, and monitor for any 'underwater' traffic in/out of the Arctic for a few weeks (while AIP runs down)
(c) when AIP reactant low, return to periscope depth, and head back to Halifax/Esquimalt on diesel engines.

However - if possible, in the Arctic, to replenish reactants, ... to me an Arctic base (capable of AIP reactant replenishment) appears to be yet another Game Changer, capitalizing on the game changing capability offered by AIP.

I wonder if any of this is being considered? Obviously I am speculating, and it could be, replenishing reactant at sea from a moble base ship/subtender, is simply not possible.