India Coffee House

[Nilgiri]

All news and analysis regarding India - Turkey relations, esp from Indian context/perspective etc.

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'Turkey, India trade grows steadily'

Bilateral trade volume target $10B for 2020, $25B for 2023, says head of DEIK's Turkey-India Business Council - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Trade volume between Turkey and India has posted a steady growth for the last two years, a business council head has said.

"Surpassing $8 billion trade volume, of which $7 billion are imports and $1.2 billion exports, we achieved our target last year," Tevfik Donmez, head of the Turkey-India Business Council of Turkey’s Foreign Economic Relations Board (DEIK), told Anadolu Agency on Tuesday.

The two countries set a bilateral trade volume target of $10 billion for 2020, and $25 billion for 2023, he said.

"Despite a 20-25% decrease in foreign trade in the first and second quarter of 2020, we believe we will catch up by the end of the year."

As cultural and economic paradigm is changing around the world, Donmez said, political, economic and cultural ties between Turkey and India have gained more importance.

He pointed out that India has an upward trend in ease of doing business due to simplification of laws and regulations, and a more transparent fiscal policy.

Noting that India has various opportunities for Turkish investors, Donmez said: "India, where a number of pharmaceutical raw materials are produced, has significant mutual potential for Turkey, which is a producer of high value-added products such as medical devices and test kits."

Touching upon India's wedding industry, Donmez said Turkey hosted 25 Indian weddings, surpassing $100 million last year.

"Despite a fall this year, we have projected to reach new records in Indian wedding tourism industry in Turkey in 2021," he said.

 

[Nilgiri]

Ties with Turkey need ‘course correction’: Indian envoy

Turkish think-tank hosts ambassador Sanjay Panda to discuss India's Turkey policy - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

The Indian ambassador to Turkey Sanjay Panda called for “course correction” in bilateral relations for “larger goals” of the two G20-member countries.

Addressing a virtual meetup hosted by Cemal Demir, who leads the Istanbul-based think-tank South Asia Strategic Research Center (GASAM), on Wednesday, the Indian envoy said any bilateral relationship has to be “seen in its totality.”

“The perception [about India-Turkey relations] is shaped by a false narrative… you cannot have that narrative blocking this relationship,” he said, alleging: “Turkish media has also fallen victim to this false narrative.”

Referring to his recent meeting with Turkish parliament speaker Mustafa Sentop, Panda said: “We cannot be on the same page on every issue but that doesn’t mean we cannot move forward."

The envoy said Indian investors are waiting to “come and invest in Turkey," given the "right environment."

Praising a Turkish company for constructing a tunnel in India’s state of Himachal Pradesh, the envoy described it as “a remarkable job that makes us proud.”

Without naming anyone, Panda said: “Two countries of the stature of India and Turkey, somehow, have missed the larger picture, [and are] caught in certain issues, not looking at this bilateral relation as standalone relation, which should stand on its own merit.”

“We are missing the track… sky is the limit… what we have attained is just tip of the iceberg,” the Indian envoy said, referring to over $8 billion annual bilateral trade. “Turkey and India have a deep historical, civilizational and cultural connect.”

He said India has always considered Turkey a friendly nation with which it shares the attributes of democracy, secularism and rule of law. "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk’s name and his legacy hold a particular appeal for every Indian,” he said.



Turkey’s geopolitical importance

The Indian envoy said New Delhi "recognizes the strategic significance of Turkey.”

“Located at the crossroads of Asia and Europe, it is geopolitically an important player in a volatile region, and economically, as a hub for third country exports, particularly as a stepping stone into the EU market,” he said.

He said the two sides have to “optimize this potential for multifaceted cooperation across a wide spectrum, ranging from trade and investment to defense and high technology.”

Referring to bilateral cooperation at multilateral forums, Panda maintained: “There is convergence of views on global issues, and have generally supported each other on issues of mutual interest.”

“Turkey joining an Indian initiative, the Coalition for Disaster Resilient Infrastructure, last week exemplifies our collaboration for a common cause,” he added.

On the challenges against multilateralism, Panda called for cooperation between Turkey and India for "bringing about necessary reforms at the UN, especially the Security Council, to make them relevant to contemporary realities.”



‘Victims of terrorism’

The Indian envoy said the two countries are “victims of terrorism, including cross-border terrorism.”

Urging non-interference in the Jammu and Kashmir dispute, the Indian envoy said: “India-Turkey relations have been hostage to some misconception about history based on a wrong narrative crafted and propagated by vested interests. Such narrative also included giving color of religion to a matter, namely Jammu and Kashmir which is wholly internal to India.”

“That should be respected,” he insisted.

“How can one gloss over the armed aggression against Jammu and Kashmir in 1947 which is the root cause of the problem,” he claimed, alleging: “Continued cross-border terrorist activities cost the lives of over 42,000 innocent Kashmiris.”

Panda said: “No stones are left unturned to reinforce this false narrative through diverse means, such as raising the matter at every conceivable multilateral forum, dragging the subject to seminars and conferences irrespective of the subject under discussion, instigating public, organizing public demonstrations even in third countries causing law and order problems, and even by the sponsorship of terrorism.”



‘Way forward and course correction’

“Ties can certainly be put back on track – if not overnight, incrementally,” the Indian envoy said. “India is ready to work towards this end. However, such progress can be achieved only on purely independent bilateral considerations not influenced by either country’s relationship with any third country."

He said: "any interference [in internal affairs] is totally unwelcomed."

The ambassador argued that Turkey and India need to achieve “mutual understanding of political-security issues, especially sensitivity on issues of core concern to either side [which] lies at the root of the development of relations.”

“Once we have the right political environment, we could make the most of the post-COVID-19 pandemic opportunities by reimagining and reconfiguring our partnership,” he said.

“Let us recognize this big picture in our bilateral ties and embark on an urgent course correction. It is only then India and Turkey can realize their full potential as natural partners in the 21st century.”

GASAM head Demir, for his part, said if relations between Ankara and New Delhi can be developed in the framework of national and international interests it will be profitable for both.

He underlined that an independent policy within the framework of democratic rule of law is needed to strengthen the current bilateral relations.

 

[Jackdaws]

India's founding ethos is based on secularism and pluralism. This was quite important to two main architects of the freedom movement - an extremely religious Hindu - Mahatma Gandhi and an agnostic and quasi - British Nehru.

Now one looks at Jinnah and sees a man who exploited religious fissures for personal gain.

Modi does the same.

Let's look at the similarities -

1. Excellent Orators
2. Jinnah spread fear about Hindus to gain popularity among Muslim masses; vice versa for Modi
3. Jinnah was distant enough from his wife to pursue his political career and his wife committed suicide. Modi abandoned his wife for his political career.
4. Both hate(d) the ideals of Nehru
5. Both were not averse to pushing their followers toward violence - Modi has done that in Godhra and Jinnah through Direct Action Day.

Feel free to add other similarities.

But what does that mean for India? There have always been religious tensions simmering in India - Nehru ardently tried to forge a sense of nationhood and celebrate our diversity.

Today under Modi, it is safe to say that Muslim citizens fear being relegated to second class status.

Is Modi indeed the Hindu Jinnah?

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri @Raptor

 

[Nilgiri]

Some impulses are shared, but lot of differences between them and the eras, given one lived upstream and one lives downstream. Direct comparison is near impossible.

I would suggest reading of my reply here to gain where I come from overall:

Books and Research Materials

@Kaptaan @VCheng @Yankeestani @Waz Are you guys aware that Imran has been recommending books. Al criticism aside, i think this is a good step. PM Imran's book club: This December, he recommends reading History of the Pathans With juggling household responsibilities, study workload and long...

defencehub.live

 

[Nilgiri]

 

[Null/Void]

Why the Indian Far-Right LOVE Israel - YouTube

 

[Nilgiri]

He should do an episode on Bangladesh to be consistent on actual extremely "far-right" consequence.

It's right there on the map for all to see....why is there now and why was it not there as such when the British left (who I'm sure this guy will call extremely far-right too) .

 

[Deliorman]

It’s pretty funny to read Indian Zionist comments all around the web. That strong love towards Israel by some Indians seems very strange to me and the root of it is probably that for many Super Hindus Israel is some kind of an example of how to kick Muslim asses etc.... I bet that it’s roots are again from the Pak- Ind conflict- the rivalry that basically is the reason for all crazyness on the Subcontinent.

Still I bet that the huuuuge majority of Indians in general probably don’t even care about Israel or Middle East politics at all. It’s just a huge country full of all kinds of people so you can find all kinds of personalities especially on a place like internet.

ps The most pathetic personalities though are the American Evangelicals and their African Converts that praise Israel like it is some kind of a religious duty. I feel like even Israelis feel annoyed by these creeps.

 

[Nilgiri]

It’s pretty funny to read Indian Zionist comments all around the web. That strong love towards Israel by some Indians seems very strange to me and the root of it is probably that for many Super Hindus Israel is some kind of an example of how to kick Muslim asses etc.... I bet that it’s roots are again from the Pak- Ind conflict- the rivalry that basically is the reason for all crazyness on the Subcontinent.

Still I bet that the huuuuge majority of Indians in general probably don’t even care about Israel or Middle East politics at all. It’s just a huge country full of all kinds of people so you can find all kinds of personalities especially on a place like internet.

ps The most pathetic personalities though are the American Evangelicals and their African Converts that praise Israel like it is some kind of a religious duty. I feel like even Israelis feel annoyed by these creeps.

Lot of people have no lives or productivity so they got to go to echo chamber blab to feel good.

 

[Ryder]

It’s pretty funny to read Indian Zionist comments all around the web. That strong love towards Israel by some Indians seems very strange to me and the root of it is probably that for many Super Hindus Israel is some kind of an example of how to kick Muslim asses etc.... I bet that it’s roots are again from the Pak- Ind conflict- the rivalry that basically is the reason for all crazyness on the Subcontinent.

Still I bet that the huuuuge majority of Indians in general probably don’t even care about Israel or Middle East politics at all. It’s just a huge country full of all kinds of people so you can find all kinds of personalities especially on a place like internet.

ps The most pathetic personalities though are the American Evangelicals and their African Converts that praise Israel like it is some kind of a religious duty. I feel like even Israelis feel annoyed by these creeps.

The indian far right or hindu radical failed to realise that Islam and Judaism are pretty much similar not to mention both eat beef.

They think its its Israel vs Islam when in reality its Arabs vs Israel. Religion plays a role but like all struggles its geopolitics.

Funny how some of these losers live in Qatar, Uae and Bahrain

 

[crixus]

It’s pretty funny to read Indian Zionist comments all around the web. That strong love towards Israel by some Indians seems very strange to me and the root of it is probably that for many Super Hindus Israel is some kind of an example of how to kick Muslim asses etc.... I bet that it’s roots are again from the Pak- Ind conflict- the rivalry that basically is the reason for all crazyness on the Subcontinent.

Still I bet that the huuuuge majority of Indians in general probably don’t even care about Israel or Middle East politics at all. It’s just a huge country full of all kinds of people so you can find all kinds of personalities especially on a place like internet.

ps The most pathetic personalities though are the American Evangelicals and their African Converts that praise Israel like it is some kind of a religious duty. I feel like even Israelis feel annoyed by these creeps.

If killing and hurting Muslims is the reason, they should be loving CCP members more then Israel

 

[Raptor]

You guys got it totally wrong.
They mostly love the way how isreal tackles any situation,like hostile enemies surrounded them.
The situation of isreal and India is the same as per them
We're surrounded by hostile enemies like China and Pakistan.
So the situation according to them is pretty same.
So they draw inspiration from Isreal,that if this tiny country can save its existence,why India couldn't?

 

[Deliorman]

If killing and hurting Muslims is the reason, they should be loving CCP members more then Israel

Yeah but China is viewed as Pakistan’s BFF and also a country hostile towards India so they can’t like them.

The friend of my enemy is my enemy too.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

[Raptor]

Yeah but China is viewed as Pakistan’s BFF and also a country hostile towards India so they can’t like them.

The friend of my enemy is my enemy too.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

If India would've joined chinese BRI,china would've ditched Pakistan,I can assure you!!
For china India is a bigger market than Pakistan would ever be and not to forget soft power influence,the Indians have direct influence over Congress and this would be a major victory for China.
Also it would have no major power opposing China in entire Asia except Japan.

 

[Nilgiri]

You guys got it totally wrong.
They mostly love the way how isreal tackles any situation,like hostile enemies surrounded them.
The situation of isreal and India is the same as per them
We're surrounded by hostile enemies like China and Pakistan.
So the situation according to them is pretty same.
So they draw inspiration from Isreal,that if this tiny country can save its existence,why India couldn't?

They are not totally wrong. It depends what is meant by "far right" and whom they are even talking about.

Far right and far left (as much as they hate each other) are both extremist totalitarian mindsets that are the pathways for mass killing and extermination of people.

Putting this to practice (And take power and then wield that power on innocent beings) rather than online blab is very different subject to get into.

I always give benefit of doubt that people are talking about the online blab folks...when they talking about "far right" and "far left"....and I give them further credit if they are able to call out the same types in their own community.

They are found all around world, same kind of twits blabbing and trolling, and making other folks of same area or other parts of world cringe hard.

But when it come to power wielding folks, we must be very careful what is right-wing and what is actually far-right.

India has never had far-right of consequence commensurate to state sanctioned totalitarian-style atrocities (even sticking only to its region and not going to the "big 3" of 20th century).

That phenomenon has emanated in short few brutal years in our region in modern independent nation-state era in only one place: East Pakistan.

Skipping number of Hindus that died....the number of Muslims that died at hand of other Muslims by state-sanction and state-order far exceeds by magnitudes upon magnitudes (anything found in India, much less state sanctioned) in just immediate operation searchlight (about 2 weeks) even.

Expand that to what happened in the many months after, its something unimaginable to do and tolerate within India.

It is why India stands in one piece regd what it inherited after independence, unlike Jinnah's creation.

If the people in this thread and elsewhere realise that the greatest "far right" and "far left" totalitarian evil inflicted on most Muslims in general in 20th century was by other Muslims and call that out first and foremost (and that clearly being manifested in Pakistan regime in this region, and its not even close)....they add to their credibility to then criticize any tendencies regarding this within India (politicians, mobs and online blab in about that order of importance).

If India would've joined chinese BRI,china would've ditched Pakistan,I can assure you!!
For china India is a bigger market than Pakistan would ever be and not to forget soft power influence,the Indians have direct influence over Congress and this would be a major victory for China.
Also it would have no major power opposing China in entire Asia except Japan.

Sorry thats wrong. Maybe a regular minded China, but under CCP nope. They see India as a full on rival that needs to be contained, constrained and put in its place.

India joining BRI would just make them money and they would still think the same and do the same w.r.t Pakistan.

If they didn't come around to western liberal way by western liberal countries under US Aegis giving them trillions of dollars of market access (for literally free since they didnt pay into it like Japan, SoKo etc) in 90s....there is literally no way India joining BRI changes that as that is mere drop in bucket relatively compared to what has enriched China last 40 years.

This has always been their thinking since they charged west into turkestan and tibet (on statist diktat)....and got emboldened by Soviet and Indian non-reaction to both respectively (both wanted good relations with Mao and PRC at the time).

There was no pragmatic reason for them to come into further conflict with both USSR and India at ussuri and ladakh/NEFA respectively either.

The one with India continues as India is still same political legacy whereas USSR broke up....so they could start new with Russia.

This is why they gave the CHIC-4 design (among other strategic things) to Pakistan, probably the greatest damage they have ever done to India.

 

[Jackdaws]

India did not even formally have diplomatic relations with Israel till the 1990s under Narasimha Rao. This was because of India's support to the Palestinian cause.

However, to facilitate the emigration of Indian Jews to Israel, there was a diplomatic outpost in Bombay but no formal relations.

For Israelis, coming to India is almost a right of passage and you see them in Goa and Rajasthan quite a bit. They also end up fighting with locals, especially in Goa.

It is a bit of a bizarre relationship.

 

[Nilgiri]

Jews have lived in India a very long time....so one cannot strictly say there is no history between India and Jews and they are complete strangers to having a relationship etc.

In fact Indian jews that emgirated to Israel after its formation form a vital bridge between the two countries. One Israeli I have as friend is actually Marathi jew background....he forms a good bridge for me to understand Israel better.

A more famous bridge is JFR Jacob, Indian Army General people can read about.

India is one of very few places that has seen no anti-semitism on jewish minority like was regular feature in many places of world historically (sadly). This has been said by the Jews themselves.

More posts I have made about Israel and India history (threads can be read for context):

Why Pakistan will be next to normalize with Israel

Why Pakistan will be next to normalize with Israel Islamabad denies any move is afoot but a Saudi and UAE-backed normalization of ties could soon be in the offing PESHAWAR- Last month, Pakistan’s Foreign Ministry rebutted a barrage of reports on social and mainstream media that suggested...

defencehub.live

Indonesian Politics (History, Issue, culture etc)

https://m.cnnindonesia.com/internasional/20201213145329-120-581542/israel-ingin-buka-hubungan-dengan-ri-kemlu-membantah that was quick😂 Cnbc article is newer. If they already "membantah" why it keep coming up?

defencehub.live

There is far more to this all than Indian "far right" (in whatever definition) and Israel.

 

[Jackdaws]

Jews have lived in India a very long time....so one cannot strictly say there is no history between India and Jews and they are complete strangers to having a relationship etc.

In fact Indian jews that emgirated to Israel after its formation form a vital bridge between the two countries. One Israeli I have as friend is actually Marathi jew background....he forms a good bridge for me to understand Israel better.

A more famous bridge is JFR Jacob, Indian Army General people can read about.

India is one of very few places that has seen no anti-semitism on jewish minority like was regular feature in many places of world historically (sadly). This has been said by the Jews themselves.

More posts I have made about Israel and India history (threads can be read for context):

Why Pakistan will be next to normalize with Israel

Why Pakistan will be next to normalize with Israel Islamabad denies any move is afoot but a Saudi and UAE-backed normalization of ties could soon be in the offing PESHAWAR- Last month, Pakistan’s Foreign Ministry rebutted a barrage of reports on social and mainstream media that suggested...

defencehub.live

Indonesian Politics (History, Issue, culture etc)

https://m.cnnindonesia.com/internasional/20201213145329-120-581542/israel-ingin-buka-hubungan-dengan-ri-kemlu-membantah that was quick😂 Cnbc article is newer. If they already "membantah" why it keep coming up?

defencehub.live

There is far more to this all than Indian "far right" (in whatever definition) and Israel.

Yes. And Indian Marathi Jews tend to have typical Marathi surnames ending with "kar".
A famous one is the actor David

David Abraham Cheulkar - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Raptor]

China, but under CCP nope. They see India as a full on rival that needs to be contained, constrained and put in its place.

India joining BRI would just make them money and they would still think the same and do the same w.r.t Pakistan.

India joining BRI and RCEP would've give them access to both are our lands(route through which BRI would pass)and market
As I said if India joins BRI it would pave for next projects which would take India-China relationships to a greater height ofcourse China would have advantage here,containment policy also works here.
In negotiations and stuff we didn't have that leverage back then,so China could've taken advantage of it.
Containing a country can be done in many ways such as economically,militarily and diplomatically etc.
Economic containment by these projects would be better than rest if China wants to contain India and that would more be possible if they made India join economic projects where they get maximum benifits.


We can have different opinions though.

 

[Nilgiri]

India joining BRI and RCEP would've give them access to both are our lands(route through which BRI would pass)and market
As I said if India joins BRI it would pave for next projects which would take India-China relationships to a greater height ofcourse China would have advantage here,containment policy also works here.


We can have different opinions though.

Again if its all about market money, they would have improved their relations with the west about 100 times more, given West built up their economy about that level (100 times). Simple case of input - output correlation. But what has happened instead?

This after all involves excess in proven established money and knowhow far far in abundance to what India can only potentially provide them in any forseeable future.

You have to live among Chinese, and learn Chinese to know more on this stuff.

People assume Chinese folks are all "money" + "strategy", thinking on the same paradigms as your own or some other countries. They are not....even more so with CCP.

The thinking is still very much entrenched in statist psyche at ANY cost.

This is exactly why Brezhnev had to threaten nuclear strikes on Beijing during the height of Ussuri.

This is exactly why Mao starved 30+ million peasants (who brought him to power) without blinking an eye and exporting grain to other countries all the while too.

So why people don't understand Xi and his coterie (and present CCP leaders in general) that were born and bred in that era....but choose to assume things about them...I will not understand that. It is exactly what CCP wants you to think about them....because misjudgment helps them....it shows them their propaganda is working.

People think they merely adopted the statist authoritarianism in some new globalist environment today....but like Bane said " I was born in it!"

If you know exactly how Xi's family suffered from CCP, how he obviously remembers that... and the psychology he is now acting out w.r.t them and others...it is all a long topic to get into....but none of it involves being nice to India if India only gives them all they claim to want. Especially dropping Pakistan lmao.

@Paro