India Defence Exports and Relations

[Rajendra Chola]

By the way...an observation:

Armenia has spent over $400 million over the last couple months purchasing weapons in India alone ($250 million for MBRLs, ATGMs and now this $155 million). That's over half of their entire defence budget (about ~$750 million).

I don't know what else they're buying and from who, but this shopping spree seems to have started shortly after Nancy Pelosi's visit to Yerevan. I wonder if she left her purse behind?

I won't be surprised if its actually the US that's covertly funding these purchases. Armenia is Russia's last remaining ally in the Caucasus and the defence relationship is one of the critical lynchpins that keeps Armenia tied to Russia at the hip despite everything. The Americans would love to pitch in to ensure Armenia moves away from reliance on Russian systems at the tactical level by purchasing from whoever else, while the US could sooner or later decide to step in to provide the strategic-level relationship Armenia needs.

Deprive Russia of an ally, and at the same time gain a foothold in a country bordering Erdogan's Turkey - a useful tool to exert pressure in the future. Two birds one stone? Remember it was the current administration in DC that formally recognized the Armenian genocide.

Steps are certainly being taken by the US to prop up Armenia.

Ofcourse they are not going to pay 400m this year. It will be divided over the next 2-4 years. Or we don’t know if it’s an soft loan. GoI has attempted not to make it a big deal out of the sales.

And this sale may not be for Armenia. Except for one article, which is Business standard who are not experts in defence reporting, it might be Saudi as well. They evaluated 2 of Kalyani artillery. Have anyone got confirmation form a real source in any article?

 

[Rajendra Chola]

If you do realpolitik you should understand Regardless of erdogan, India-turkey defence relationship at any significant level is never gonna work out as long as turkey cosnider pakistan an strategic ally.

And ( fortunately or unfortunately, depending on person's view ) turkey always considered pakistan an strategic ally even when the hardcore seculars were in power. It is a long standing military to military relationship.

Strategic alleys does not mean they are willing to sell their strategic weapons for free. They will say, it’s available to you but not for India. But india can still buy non strategic weapon system as it classifies. Turkey won an contract to sell LPD to Indian Navy in 2017. It was under final discussions when Erdogsn went to UN in 2019, made comments and deal fell through. Now this ship is an non strategic defence item.

Turkey did have an “healthy” relationship with india. India is not expecting close or strategic relationship with Turkey but an relationship based on mutual respect.

All Mr. Erdogan did was destroy that “healthy” relationship. Will Erdogan take it lightly if we comment on Kurds issue? India have no locus standi on that issue same as Turkey has on Kashmir.

 

[Baryshx]

By the way...an observation:

Armenia has spent over $400 million over the last couple months purchasing weapons in India alone ($250 million for MBRLs, ATGMs and now this $155 million). That's over half of their entire defence budget (about ~$750 million).

I don't know what else they're buying and from who, but this shopping spree seems to have started shortly after Nancy Pelosi's visit to Yerevan. I wonder if she left her purse behind?

I won't be surprised if its actually the US that's covertly funding these purchases. Armenia is Russia's last remaining ally in the Caucasus and the defence relationship is one of the critical lynchpins that keeps Armenia tied to Russia at the hip despite everything. The Americans would love to pitch in to ensure Armenia moves away from reliance on Russian systems at the tactical level by purchasing from whoever else, while the US could sooner or later decide to step in to provide the strategic-level relationship Armenia needs.

Deprive Russia of an ally, and at the same time gain a foothold in a country bordering Erdogan's Turkey - a useful tool to exert pressure in the future. Two birds one stone? Remember it was the current administration in DC that formally recognized the Armenian genocide.

Steps are certainly being taken by the US to prop up Armenia.

I think you overestimated Armenia. Armenia is nothing. It cannot be an element of oppression geographically, economically, politically or militarily. Georgia is a better country for cooperation, it also has a coast on the Black Sea.

 

[Afif]

Strategic alleys does not mean they are willing to sell their strategic weapons for free. They will say, it’s available to you but not for India. But india can still buy non strategic weapon system as it classifies. Turkey won an contract to sell LPD to Indian Navy in 2017. It was under final discussions when Erdogsn went to UN in 2019, made comments and deal fell through. Now this ship is an non strategic defence item.

Turkey did have an “healthy” relationship with india. India is not expecting close or strategic relationship with Turkey but an relationship based on mutual respect.

All Mr. Erdogan did was destroy that “healthy” relationship. Will Erdogan take it lightly if we comment on Kurds issue? India have no locus standi on that issue same as Turkey has on Kashmir.

I didn't said strategic allies exchange their strategic assets for free!
And of course india can have a 'healthy' relationship with turkey and buy some non strategic military assets

that deal ultimately gone through! Didn't it ?

Last but not the least, turkey's legal stance on kashmir issue is same as the Un security Council and lot of other countries in the world. ( which is it is a disputed territory between PK and india ) it's not like I am erdogan's fan or something, but I still think modi government just made a big deal from his speech considering there was nothing new from turkey's long time legal stance.

 

[AzeriTank]

But emotionally it is an area of conflict, Turkiye and India should talk, establish better relations. Since India can establish relations with Russia and China, right?

to be honest, i even think Turkey and India talked it in Uzbekistan, to make Armenia look like it arming itself to start a new war and Azerbaijan will use this excuse to start the second war and take Zengezur

 

[AzeriTank]

I didn't said strategic allies exchange their strategic assets for free!
And of course india can have a 'healthy' relationship with turkey and buy some non strategic military assets

that deal ultimately gone through! Didn't it ?

Last but not the least, turkey's legal stance on kashmir issue is same as the Un security Council and lot of other countries in the world. ( which is it is a disputed territory between PK and india ) it's not like I am erdogan's fan or something, but I still think modi government just made a big deal from his speech considering there was nothing new from turkey's long time legal stance.

to be honest, this deal will create more issue for India than to Turkey, as Armenia there is no way they can win the war, thats why nobody wants to sell the weapon to them as it will crash their reputation. on the other hand, if India does it without talking to Turkey, which i dont believe, it will hit back India super bad. To be honest, There are rumor that Turkey gave PK the EW to make Indian jet to shoot its own helicopter and right after that India stopped all border attacks and gave Turkey 4BLN$ ship project. of course its just rumor, not 100% but just wanted to share another view. and here, Turkey and India work together, Erdogan and Modi met in Uzbekitan last time and might discussed it

 

[Afif]

to be honest, this deal will create more issue for India than to Turkey, as Armenia there is no way they can win the war, thats why nobody wants to sell the weapon to them as it will crash their reputation. on the other hand, if India does it without talking to Turkey, which i dont believe, it will hit back India super bad as we can see Turkey will arm Bangladesh and PK and might even push to take kashmir. As we saw, its not that easy to use nuclear.

i think turkish security cooperation with PK and BD doesnt depend on armenia india cooperation. turkey would provide weapons to both countries anyway for other reasons.

 

[AzeriTank]

i think turkish security cooperation with PK and BD doesnt depend on armenia india cooperation. turkey would provide weapons to both countries anyway for other reasons.

thats obviously, but selling a weapon is different here for obvious reasons and i believe India also understands the situation here as they gave the ship project to Turkish companies. However, our people are famous for revenge, look what happened to France in Afrika, they lost Libya, Tunis, Algeria, Mali, Senegal, Niger, Chad and so on just because they started to sell weapon to Greece. at the end of the day, i believe once Azerbaijan share videos of those artillery getting hit, India will not able export much as its reputation will go down and as a new market, its not a good idea.

 

[Marlii]

to be honest, this deal will create more issue for India than to Turkey, as Armenia there is no way they can win the war, thats why nobody wants to sell the weapon to them as it will crash their reputation. on the other hand, if India does it without talking to Turkey, which i dont believe, it will hit back India super bad. To be honest, There are rumor that Turkey gave PK the EW to make Indian jet to shoot its own helicopter and right after that India stopped all border attacks and gave Turkey 4BLN$ ship project. of course its just rumor, not 100% but just wanted to share another view. and here, Turkey and India work together, Erdogan and Modi met in Uzbekitan last time and might discussed it

Does turkey talk to india when it sells weapons to pakistan ? And I am not even gonna explain idiocy in your the whole EW to make indian helicopter down theory.the whole 4BLN ship project is nothing for the indian government as they are replenishment vessels and they don't want to drag the process and the deal well could have been cancelled but Erdogan kept his mouth shut for some time so the deal went ahead and the whole indo Turkish relationship would have been fine hadn't it been for erdogans loose mouth.indian government doesn't care where pakistan gets weapons from but publicly and in international forums challenging them is gonna send a bad message to both indian government and public

 

[Zapper]

There are rumor that Turkey gave PK the EW to make Indian jet to shoot its own helicopter and right after that India stopped all border attacks and gave Turkey 4BLN$ ship project. of course its just rumor, not 100% but just wanted to share another view. and here, Turkey and India work together, Erdogan and Modi met in Uzbekitan last time and might discussed it

PAF did effectively use it's AWACS to shoot down the Mig-21 but that has nothing to do with the helo being shot down. It was simply an error on the helo pilot's to follow the appropriate SOP by failing to turn on the IFF. The helo location was comparatively in land well within our territory which made the operators fire a Spyder SAM assuming it to be hostile in nature

 

[Zapper]

Turkey won an contract to sell LPD to Indian Navy in 2017. It was under final discussions when Erdogsn went to UN in 2019, made comments and deal fell through. Now this ship is an non strategic defence item

That deal came to light after Erdogan's barking since we wanted to muzzle him up with a bone like how we made Malaysia to revert their narrative by cutting Palm oil imports

Given the complex and sophisticated naval platforms we've been designing and building over the past couple of decades from corvettes, frigates, destroyers, subs, ACs, research/tracking vessels...do you actually think we'd given a relatively less complex platform like an LPD to our primary adversary's ally!

 

[Rajendra Chola]

I didn't said strategic allies exchange their strategic assets for free!
And of course india can have a 'healthy' relationship with turkey and buy some non strategic military assets

that deal ultimately gone through! Didn't it ?

Last but not the least, turkey's legal stance on kashmir issue is same as the Un security Council and lot of other countries in the world. ( which is it is a disputed territory between PK and india ) it's not like I am erdogan's fan or something, but I still think modi government just made a big deal from his speech considering there was nothing new from turkey's long time legal stance.

FYI That deal did not go through. It’s for india to decide the nature of the comments. He made words like Genocide and stuff. And that was not really happening.. I guess what Turkey will think of Modi did the same from UN platform asking for Kurdish independence

 

[Rajendra Chola]

That deal came to light after Erdogan's barking since we wanted to muzzle him up with a bone like how we made Malaysia to revert their narrative by cutting Palm oil imports

Given the complex and sophisticated naval platforms we've been designing and building over the past couple of decades from corvettes, frigates, destroyers, subs, ACs, research/tracking vessels...do you actually think we'd given a relatively less complex platform like an LPD to our primary adversary's ally!

It’s an non strategic platform for sure. But I think for IN and MoD cost was a factor and they were the cheapest in the tender. Now cos of him, we are without 4 LPD

 

[Madokafc]

what kind of artillery you guys sold? 155 mm? towed or SPH?

 

[Marlii]

what kind of artillery you guys sold? 155 mm? towed or SPH?

The online chatter is that of SPH

 

[Marlii]

I didn't said strategic allies exchange their strategic assets for free!
And of course india can have a 'healthy' relationship with turkey and buy some non strategic military assets

that deal ultimately gone through! Didn't it ?

Last but not the least, turkey's legal stance on kashmir issue is same as the Un security Council and lot of other countries in the world. ( which is it is a disputed territory between PK and india ) it's not like I am erdogan's fan or something, but I still think modi government just made a big deal from his speech considering there was nothing new from turkey's long time legal stance.

Legal stance or not you can't go on a tirade on international forums on stuff that you don't have any issue to begin with.and for you it will not be a big deal but if an Indian PM goes mouthing on PKK ,Kurds let's see how they would respond and turkey didn't recieve any massive flak from india unlike the Malaysians with their palm oil

 

[Paro]

to be honest, this deal will create more issue for India than to Turkey, as Armenia there is no way they can win the war, thats why nobody wants to sell the weapon to them as it will crash their reputation. on the other hand, if India does it without talking to Turkey, which i dont believe, it will hit back India super bad. To be honest, There are rumor that Turkey gave PK the EW to make Indian jet to shoot its own helicopter and right after that India stopped all border attacks and gave Turkey 4BLN$ ship project. of course its just rumor, not 100% but just wanted to share another view. and here, Turkey and India work together, Erdogan and Modi met in Uzbekitan last time and might discussed it

I usually avoid your types but this is the best I have read on this forum. This is another level of self glory of an irrelevant player.

A big LOL from my side.

 

[Gessler]

Ofcourse they are not going to pay 400m this year. It will be divided over the next 2-4 years. Or we don’t know if it’s an soft loan. GoI has attempted not to make it a big deal out of the sales.

I meant it as a reference to the scale of their purchases compared to their annual defence spending. Of course it will be spread over multiple years. For the longest while Armenia could only afford to get Russian hand-me-downs (which are cheap to begin with), now something has changed.

And this sale may not be for Armenia. Except for one article, which is Business standard who are not experts in defence reporting, it might be Saudi as well. They evaluated 2 of Kalyani artillery. Have anyone got confirmation form a real source in any article?

The report is from Ajai Shukla who has been closely reporting on the Kalyani artillery program (as well as ATAGS program) for a while now. Take it for what its worth.

I think you overestimated Armenia. Armenia is nothing. It cannot be an element of oppression geographically, economically, politically or militarily. Georgia is a better country for cooperation, it also has a coast on the Black Sea.

Georgia has already been in the US orbit since 2008.

It’s an non strategic platform for sure. But I think for IN and MoD cost was a factor and they were the cheapest in the tender. Now cos of him, we are without 4 LPD

It's not an LPD, its a Fleet Support Ship (FSS) aka a refueling tanker of sorts, much like our current Deepak-class or the Aditya-class that GRSE built.

that deal ultimately gone through! Didn't it ?

It's been over 2 years since the Turkish consortium was selected, and no news. More than likely the deal is dead in the water.

 

[Zapper]

what kind of artillery you guys sold? 155 mm? towed or SPH?

This

 

[Nilgiri]

In this edition of The Defenders we will talk about the government focus on minimising import dependence in the defence sector.

Anchor- Maroof Raza

Guest- Sunil Mishra, Director General, Society of Indian Defence Manufacturers
Maj Gen (Retd.) Ravi Arora, Defence Expert