Discussion: Wider Adoption Of Amphibious Aircrafts For Indonesia?

FPXAllen

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Hello all.

Maaf sebelumnya, saya tadinya terpikir untuk menulis ini dalam salah satu thread yang sudah ada tapi mengingat ini bukan spesifik tentang pertahanan (walaupun masih ada sangkut-pautnya juga), dan karena formatnya adalah diskusi serius (yang sepertinya kurang cocok untuk dimasukkan dalam Warkop), jadi saya buat thread baru.

Kemudian, mohon maaf juga karena pakai bahasa Inggris. Ini semata-mata karena saya ingin mendapatkan masukan-masukan dari members lain termasuk para moderator yang bukan orang Indonesia yang mungkin memiliki pengetahuan yang sangat layak untuk dipertimbangkan. Saya berharap dengan semakin banyak input yang didapat, akan semakin membuka wawasan bagi kita semua.

Sorry in advance, I thought about writing this in one of the existing threads but considering it's not defense specific (although it's still related to it somehow), and because the format is a serious discussion (which doesn't seem suitable for inclusion in Casual Discussion / Warkop thread), so I created a new one.

Then, I also apologize for using English. This is solely because I wanted to get inputs from other members including moderators who are not Indonesians who may have knowledge that is very worthy of consideration. I hope that the more input we get, it will open up more insight for all of us.



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Wider Adoption Of Amphibious Aircrafts For Indonesia?

Indonesia, an archipelagic nation consisting of more than 17.000 islands, certainly has its own challenges when it comes to interconnecting those islands - especially smaller and remote ones. While it is true that most of those smaller islands aren't known to be inhabited, but some do, as well as some other which also happen to be located at the nation's borders.

There was an interest to acquire amphibious airplanes for Indonesia which resulted in a 2019 contract for six Bombardier / Viking Air CL-515 and one CL-415 (4 in SAR / multi-mission + 3 in firefighting configuration, delivery expected in 2024). However, allthough there's no doubt that they'll be valuable assets here, this still gave me another idea: What if Indonesia adopt more of this kind of aircraft for its primary (or secondary) means of transportation to and from its remote islands?

While it's not necessarily limited only for internal security or defence matter - such as monitoring those remote islands as well as building, manning and supplying sea border outposts or anti-submarine warfare, to name a few examples, those planes will be highly valuable for tourism industry, especially to reinvigorate tourism post Covid-19 pandemic which is still happening today. Furthermore, even if we exclude tourism, more of them means that there will be more valuable assets to have for search and rescue operations within and around Indonesia waters. In this case, first responders can arrive on the scene of emergencies a lot faster compared to using ships to reach those emergency locations.

I have researched a bit before I wrote this, and found out that commercial amphibious plane operations sharply decreased right after WWII. Higher operational and maintenance cost, as well as the construction of many land-based airports all around the world are some of the main causes which negated its advantages. But those are, arguably, mostly true only for countries which aren't archipelagic by nature.

Some might think that since we can just build airstrips in Indonesia's remote islands, therefore we don't need amphibious airplanes that much. Or that travelling by boats from the nearest island which has an airstrip to smaller ones nearby is far more economical. However, there are still some advantages to be gained if one can travel from major airports or seaplane ports directly to remote islands especially ones which are too small to build airstrip at.

Yes, there's an ongoing attempt at PTDI to build an amphibious version of the N219 transport aircraft and it is something that I'm eagerly waiting for. But since it wasn't purposely designed as amphibious aircraft from the beginning, it will face the same limitations as other types which are also converted land-based to amphibious aircrafts: reduced cargo capacity and range due to added weight and drag. Therefore, we might still need dedicated amphibious aircrafts that have more range and cargo capacity to fill in.

So with all that above, I would like to learn more from your perspective about this. Feel free to reply to include things that I may have missed and whether there are probably more cons than pros of what have already written here.
 

NEKO

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I think it will be useful for tourism in Raja Ampat, there are many islands that tourist can choose , and from the videos I watched from youtube its quite remote and I think they need to switch from jet plane to propeller plane then ride a boat, maybe we can built seaplane base among those resort islands, but maybe it will be opposed by the locals that offers boat service. Though the government can convince them that the plane was not to replace them, but to boost the tourism, the rich can use plane and the other still can use their boat service, more tourist = more money enter raja ampat which will also help the other locals, like they may sell more stuff to the tourist.

Raja ampat infrastructure is not that good, and from the videos it looks quite a hassle not very friendly for tourist that is not very 'travel guy', bali nature's is beautiful and have good infrastructure, raja ampat is more beautiful (sea related) but infrastructure and transportation still need improvement, I think the government need to accommodate rich tourist that have less 'traveling spirit'. After switching from jet plane to amphibious plane tourist just need a short boat ride to the desired resort island.

Just my receh, i am not an expert and don't know much about yhe reality on the ground though.
 

trishna_amrta

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Hello all.

Maaf sebelumnya, saya tadinya terpikir untuk menulis ini dalam salah satu thread yang sudah ada tapi mengingat ini bukan spesifik tentang pertahanan (walaupun masih ada sangkut-pautnya juga), dan karena formatnya adalah diskusi serius (yang sepertinya kurang cocok untuk dimasukkan dalam Warkop), jadi saya buat thread baru.

Kemudian, mohon maaf juga karena pakai bahasa Inggris. Ini semata-mata karena saya ingin mendapatkan masukan-masukan dari members lain termasuk para moderator yang bukan orang Indonesia yang mungkin memiliki pengetahuan yang sangat layak untuk dipertimbangkan. Saya berharap dengan semakin banyak input yang didapat, akan semakin membuka wawasan bagi kita semua.

Sorry in advance, I thought about writing this in one of the existing threads but considering it's not defense specific (although it's still related to it somehow), and because the format is a serious discussion (which doesn't seem suitable for inclusion in Casual Discussion / Warkop thread), so I created a new one.

Then, I also apologize for using English. This is solely because I wanted to get inputs from other members including moderators who are not Indonesians who may have knowledge that is very worthy of consideration. I hope that the more input we get, it will open up more insight for all of us.



640px-Canadair_CL-215s_Alberta_Government.jpg

Source.

Wider Adoption Of Amphibious Aircrafts For Indonesia?
What you were referring there is called Flying Boat. A flying boat use their fuselage for buoyancy. This to differentiate them with other type of plane that merely use Float planes.

As much I welcome such wide adoption of flying boat in 🇮🇩, I don't see it happening within any foreseeable future. The main reason for this is the mindset of policymaker rather than any lack of technicality. All policymakers all over the world think about is "land", because its tangible enough for everyone involve, while a body of water is always seen as "an obstacle"

I think it will be useful for tourism in Raja Ampat, there are many islands that tourist can choose , and from the videos I watched from youtube its quite remote and I think they need to switch from jet plane to propeller plane then ride a boat, maybe we can built seaplane base among those resort islands, but maybe it will be opposed by the locals that offers boat service.
The local can easily adjust (albeit need financing assistance from gov't) to diversified their business to also include providing goods & servicing related to general aviation. It can be done. In fact, it was nearly happens elsewhere in 🇮🇩

Raja ampat infrastructure is not that good, and from the videos it looks quite a hassle not very friendly for tourist that is not very 'travel guy', bali nature's is beautiful and have good infrastructure, raja ampat is more beautiful (sea related) but infrastructure and transportation still need improvement, I think the government need to accommodate rich tourist that have less 'traveling spirit'. After switching from jet plane to amphibious plane tourist just need a short boat ride to the desired resort island.
Physical development doesn't always bring benefits to the wilderness area. In fact, it may as well destroying its primary selling point in the first place.

One aspect that I've notice in any maritime based tourist destination in 🇮🇩 is the total absent of proper diving equipment rental. There are plenty of diving equipment rental shop, but all of them only renting sub par (rather unsafe) equipments & supply. The last thing I or anyone else want is to bring our own equipment, which is already ridiculously expensive to transport when travelling by air (the oxygen tank)
 

NEKO

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Physical development doesn't always bring benefits to the wilderness area. In fact, it may as well destroying its primary selling point in the first place.
Well...
One aspect that I've notice in any maritime based tourist destination in 🇮🇩 is the total absent of proper diving equipment rental. There are plenty of diving equipment rental shop, but all of them only renting sub par (rather unsafe) equipments & supply. The last thing I or anyone else want is to bring our own equipment, which is already ridiculously expensive to transport
What I am thinking is, make one of the island there as a tourist hub. The island will have seaplane base that can be accessed directly from Sorong airport using amphibious plane, the tourist either can stay and enjoy the island or go to another island via boat.
Build hotel and resort for the tourist, souvenir market, general market, minimarket. Have boat terminal with scheduled route and boat rent. Provide ATM, health (maybe puskemas level enough), police, menicure pedicure? Food tourism sector? services etc. The problem would be about energy, communication, fresh water, plastic trash, environmental destruction.

Logistic, food, stuff, oxygen tank, LPG tank can be carried by boat from Papua island and stored in the island (the hub), nearby island can then take what they need from there.

With so much activity in the island there will new jobs (butuh minimal pendidikan dan tidak) available, that will also draw locals from other island. But I still think that some of the locals would oppose these Idea, some of them will prefer remoteness for many reasons like environmental concerns or competitions, some of them provide housing for rent something like floating wooden house, some would love it (those who really like to get close to the nature) some would not (bug, limited electricity, no modern furniture or stuff. Hm... Is it a good idea to build something like those dope ass villa like in bali to some remote island in raja ampat and also many other services, to accommodate those tourist with thick wallet, again its not to compete with the locals service but to boost tourism, also to make tourist spend more money there.

Any Indonesian member here that is from around that area?

Just my receh though.
 

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However, there are still some advantages to be gained if one can travel from major airports or seaplane ports directly to remote islands especially ones which are too small to build airstrip at.
Go into major airports to visit some island??

what for??
 

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increasing traffic to accommodate for amphibious plane could damage the environment surrounding the island (especially corals) don't you think??

I prefer (small and shallow) boats for such. chartered from a larger ships waiting far from shore.
 

FPXAllen

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Go into major airports to visit some island??

what for??
Not only for tourism, but mainly because it saves a lot of time. It also goes both ways: People from those small and remote regions have direct access to cities in Indonesian major islands without having to spend hours or even - in some cases - days to reach the nearest airport first from where they live.

Expensive? Yes. Totally worth it? Certainly. There are various other benefits that I'm sure other can think about if we have direct access even to the remotest islands in Indonesia.
 

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Not only for tourism, but mainly because it saves a lot of time. It also goes both ways: People from those small and remote regions have direct access to cities in Indonesian major islands without having to spend hours or even - in some cases - days to reach the nearest airport first from where they live.

Expensive? Yes. Totally worth it? Certainly. There are various other benefits that I'm sure other can think about if we have direct access even to the remotest islands in Indonesia.
you know what, I prefer migration for this people living in isolated islands. pave a way so that they moved towards urban center, that way we could decrease national burden trying to reach every isolated people.
 

FPXAllen

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increasing traffic to accommodate for amphibious plane could damage the environment surrounding the island (especially corals) don't you think??

I prefer (small and shallow) boats for such. chartered from a larger ships waiting far from shore.
If that's your concern, then they can pick the places nearby for those planes to land on water where there aren't any corals or protected environments. This is one of many factors that I find so much beneficial if we operate more seaplanes (especially amphibious ones) for transportation: They can land anywhere on the sea as long as the wave is still less than 2-3 meters high. Or even when the sea condition won't allow it, they still can land on the airports / semi prepared airstrips.
 

FPXAllen

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you know what, I prefer migration for this people living in isolated islands. pave a way so that they moved towards urban center, that way we could decrease national burden trying to reach every isolated people.
It's different matter if those people themselves want or ask to be relocated. But if they're not, then it will be forced relocation which won't end well for everyone involved.

This "national burden" that you mentioned is a direct consequence of an archipelagic nation as vast as Indonesia. We can choose either between:

a. Only use slow sea connection with ships and boats which are not only a lot cheaper but able bring a lot of people and cargo, or,
b. Opening direct flight with seaplanes / amphibious planes which are expensive, can not carry nearly as much (compared to ships) but fast, or,
c. Both, where people can choose what method of transportation to use based on their needs.

Forgot to add:

It's also for national security purpose if we can reach those people living in remote islands as well as thousand other islands which are empty, don't you think?
 

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It's different matter if those people themselves want or ask to be relocated. But if they're not, then it will be forced relocation which won't end well for everyone involved.

This "national burden" that you mentioned is a direct consequence of an archipelagic nation as vast as Indonesia. We can choose either between:

a. Only use slow sea connection with ships and boats which are not only a lot cheaper but able bring a lot of people and cargo, or,
b. Opening direct flight with seaplanes / amphibious planes which are expensive, can not carry nearly as much (compared to ships) but fast, or,
c. Both, where people can choose what method of transportation to use based on their needs.

Forgot to add:

It's also for national security purpose if we can reach those people living in remote islands as well as thousand other islands which are empty, don't you think?
I don't hint at forceful relocation, actually by showing them "opportunities" we could attract them to migrate towards more populated islands.

I prefer ships for transfer of goods, and helicopters to reach isolated places.
 

NEKO

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It could provide easy access to lake toba and samosir island from kualanamu international airport.

I don't know if the place is good but the government want to make it as one of the 10 new bali.
 
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