TR F-16 Özgür | Hürkuş - Fighter Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Kitra]

That was my post and there's no 30 years time limit to the end use monitoring program, as far as i could see.

The whole 30 year thing is a common misunderstanding of how patents work, which typically are valid for 20-30 years depending on country.

People think you can't modify your own equipment just bcs it is patented. They simply don't know that patents are only relevant for commercial use in a specific country/region. Anyone can go and buy a brand new Mercedes and pimp it out on the first day.

The problem is that the supplier can refuse to service any modified unit so one does not normally pimp brand new cars/fighters but rather older units outside of service agreements.

For military equipment, there might further bilateral agreements as described above which might limit your possibility to modify, use or resell your equipment. Such agreements do not typically have time limits bit have political consequences such as embargo if broken.

 

[Sanchez]

Never seen such a 30 years regulation on official documents. Is the Turkish Özgür upgrade done with US approval? Always wondered about that ...

My guess is, such modification permissions are results of direct negotiations between US gov and foreign states.

As an example, Israeli F-16s had major modifications regarding airframe design and avionics:

• F-16 A/B had software changes of mission computer and avionics to integrate Israeli made-weapons.
• F-16 C/D had major structural changes of the airframe (done by General Dynamcis then)
• F-16I Sufa differs fundamentally to conventional F-16s (dorsal spine compartment with Israeli "electronics equipment", Elbit mission and avionics computers etc. High suspicion that Israel received relevant source codes from the get go. As an US incentive to give up its own Lavi fighter project)
• F-35I are also extensively different to other configurations (esp. Israeli avionics, sub-systems)

ROKAF upgrade program for KF-16 was a major clusterfuck until recently:

1. Upgrade: 35 F-16 C/D Block 32 upgraded since 2010s to Block 52 level (by Lockheed Martin for $250 mil.), no hiccups so far.

2. Upgrade: 134 KF-16 C/D Block 52 (mostly license-built by Samsung Aerospace = now KAI) contract won in 2012 by BAE Systems US subsidiary. First upgrade deal awarded to a non-OEM company for a fixed-price of $1,05 billion (AN/APG-84 AESA radar by Raytheon, new databus, Link-16 and avionics etc). Two KF-16 were already converted by BAE Systems in the USA.

Then things went sour over the years: US gov classified the deal as Foreign Military Sale and not as Direct Commercial Sale. Price hikes of $471 mil. by US gov and $282 mil. by BAE Systems for project delays resulted in $753 mil. added costs = $1,7 bil. in total!

Korean gov and public freaked out, cancelled the whole deal in 2014. BAE Systems USA sued SK gov for financial losses. Koreans went total apeshit and US-ROK relations reached a low point.

Finally in 2018 Lockheed Martin as original manufacturer obtained their upgrade contract for $1,2+ billion: now with AN/APG-83 AESA radar by Northrop Grumman and other modifications to Viper standards. Koreans are still pissed off to no end ... US "blood ally" my ass.

Good overview of said events and F-16 upgrade saga found here:

South Korea Launches KF-16 Fighter Upgrades Upended - Defense Industry Daily

ROKAF KF-16 (click to view full) In July 2009, The Korea Times reported that ROKAF was looking to upgrade its F-16C/D fleet's radar and armament, as part of the 2010-2014 arms acquisition and management package submitted to President Lee Myung-bak for approval. Under the Peace Bridge II and II...

www.defenseindustrydaily.com

Per Israel, US for example simply did not allow Israel to transfer their F-16As to Bulgaria some years back.

Turkey did get the source codes for the Block 30(and I believe also block 40) F-16's from US in 2000s when they were negotiation on the CCIP deal. Özgür is done independently of the US. 37 Block 30 aircraft can and probably will go through Özgür. These aircraft are also undergoing SLEP to increase their hull life from 8k to 12k hours. We also have some, I think about 5-6(?) Block 40s that didn't go through CCIP, and theoretically they can also be a part of Özgür.

All of our other Block 40s however did undergo CCIP and we don't have the source code for those ones. Still not clear how that fits into "they will also be undergoing Özgür mod" without US acceptance or assistance.

 

[Terrain]

The odd thing is TAI is idle when Baykar is pushing full force towards unmanned fighters, and that is their mistake for taking Baykar and aerospace industry lightly.
In my opinion, TAI could with a little modification can transform KAAN in to a unmanned 6th gen fighter. Just like that.
But I understand because we are not used to taking advantage of an easy solution we do it after it hits us that is why we label our people as clean hearted.

But it shouldn't be at this level.

-

 

[Zafer]

The odd thing is TAI is idle when Baykar is pushing full force towards unmanned fighters, and that is their mistake for taking Baykar and aerospace industry lightly.
In my opinion, TAI could with a little modification can transform KAAN in to a unmanned 6th gen fighter. Just like that.
But I understand because we are not used to taking advantage of an easy solution we do it after it hits us that is why we label our people as clean hearted.

But it shouldn't be at this level.

-

We don't want our companies to compete for similar platforms.

Baykar is all about unmanned.
TAI can make planes unmanned to backup for pilot failure and they most likely will.

 

[Terrain]

WOW ARE YOU PEOPLE FOR REAL?

What do you mean we don't need companies competing with each other? Stop chaining TAI down TAI is not your toy. Baykar will take over TAI if TAI doesn't wake up. I repeat TAI won't be able to compete in future if it goes like this. Who decided that TAI should stay with manned aircrafts? If it's Temel Kotil he needs to retire for the good of the nation, and I'm not joking.

Baykar is a private company so the state own TAI has to back down for someone elses fathers son and not earn for the people.

Remember what happen to Aselsan, they've developed unmanned turrets for private company FNSS and what did FNSS do at the end they started developing their own turrets, and then Aselsan moved on to the armoured vehicles field with Aselsan Korhan and what did Baykar do didn't it enter missile sector to compete with Roketsan.

 

[Terrain]

WAS BAYKAR THINKING ABOUT ROKETSAN WHEN DEVELOPING KEMANKESH CRUISE MISSILE????

 

[Terrain]

Now, some might think FNSS and Baykar are evil because of this.
But I don't want to be misunderstood, they are just doing what they meant to do, which is competing but what about TAI? I know Aselsan wont back down.
Most will end up with the conclusion that TAI is chained because of people behind back doors. Which might be, but I believe Temel Kotil has created this imaginary limitation on it's self due to Selcuk being Erdogans you know what. You are TAI for god sake you have the whole nation on your side just punch through all barriers go to the next level, you don't need rules or limitations. If only imaginary chains set us free and we could all see what TAI was made of, but I understand because chains are there because life is precious.

 

[Zafer]

WOW ARE YOU PEOPLE FOR REAL?

What do you mean we don't need companies competing with each other? Stop chaining TAI down TAI is not your toy. Baykar will take over TAI if TAI doesn't wake up. I repeat TAI won't be able to compete in future if it goes like this. Who decided that TAI should stay with manned aircrafts? If it's Temel Kotil he needs to retire for the good of the nation, and I'm not joking.

Baykar is a private company so the state own TAI has to back down for someone elses fathers son and not earn for the people.

Remember what happen to Aselsan, they've developed unmanned turrets for private company FNSS and what did FNSS do at the end they started developing their own turrets, and then Aselsan moved on to the armoured vehicles field with Aselsan Korhan and what did Baykar do didn't it enter missile sector to compete with Roketsan.

Do you want TEI to Crush Kale Arge in turbine development?

Field allocation is a policy of SSB.

We can not waste our resources by duplicating work.

Only when companies have a superior technology can they be allowed to duplicate but not for technologies that are no better than the other.

 

[boredaf]

WOW ARE YOU PEOPLE FOR REAL?

What do you mean we don't need companies competing with each other? Stop chaining TAI down TAI is not your toy. Baykar will take over TAI if TAI doesn't wake up. I repeat TAI won't be able to compete in future if it goes like this. Who decided that TAI should stay with manned aircrafts? If it's Temel Kotil he needs to retire for the good of the nation, and I'm not joking.

Baykar is a private company so the state own TAI has to back down for someone elses fathers son and not earn for the people.

Remember what happen to Aselsan, they've developed unmanned turrets for private company FNSS and what did FNSS do at the end they started developing their own turrets, and then Aselsan moved on to the armoured vehicles field with Aselsan Korhan and what did Baykar do didn't it enter missile sector to compete with Roketsan.

WAS BAYKAR THINKING ABOUT ROKETSAN WHEN DEVELOPING KEMANKESH CRUISE MISSILE????

Now, some might think FNSS and Baykar are evil because of this.
But I don't want to be misunderstood, they are just doing what they meant to do, which is competing but what about TAI? I know Aselsan wont back down.
Most will end up with the conclusion that TAI is chained because of people behind back doors. Which might be, but I believe Temel Kotil has created this imaginary limitation on it's self due to Selcuk being Erdogans you know what. You are TAI for god sake you have the whole nation on your side just punch through all barriers go to the next level, you don't need rules or limitations. If only imaginary chains set us free and we could all see what TAI was made of, but I understand because chains are there because life is precious.

Take a deep breath lad then go outside and touch some grass. You are raving like a lunatic.

 

[Kitra]

The odd thing is TAI is idle when Baykar is pushing full force towards unmanned fighters, and that is their mistake for taking Baykar and aerospace industry lightly.
In my opinion, TAI could with a little modification can transform KAAN in to a unmanned 6th gen fighter. Just like that.
But I understand because we are not used to taking advantage of an easy solution we do it after it hits us that is why we label our people as clean hearted.

But it shouldn't be at this level.

-

There is only so many things such as Gökbey, Atak2, T629, Hurjet, Hurkus, Aksungur, Anka 3, KAAN and ton of other projects such as f35 partnership a single company can do at the same time. All this within the last 5 years.

Furthermore, how do you know that TIA is not developing unmanned fighter drones? I can see that Anka 3 can be a usefull platform for such future development similar to Boeing NGAD. They just need the experience of Anka 3 to take it to the next level.

So, TIA develope NGAD Anka while Baykar developes NGAD KE. Both are conceptionally different solutions for air supperiority fighters. This is pure competition as well as complementing each other since they serve different missions.

Finally, it would be stupid to take KAAN and make it unmanned since a drone is fundamentally different from a manned aircraft. A drone simply has a totally different set of critical priorities such as low cost, software and networking. So you would get a better solution if you start a new project which from the start is designed to be a drone than just removing a cockpit.

 

[Huelague]

Is it possible steer an unmanned aircraft from a flight simulator?

 

[Terrain]

To think limitation is better option because there is only so much a company can do is higher risk than going full force ahead because fighter jet technology is going towards unmanned direction. All I want is for them to be better and to be in the know of where technology will be at. If they don't use this opportunity to come up with as many products as they can in that field is then them being gullible if not bad intentioned.
But most will be busy celebrating and not seeing the reason why some are going full force in all directions and some are limiting their main field, but isn't it true that life is what the loudest voice on TV pumps and not what it suppose to be. That is why I understand you all, you just want to be fending for a man that you think is a underdog because that is what the loudest voice have said and we are in cycle of you are right, you are wrong because we are being played we are the ones that need to brake the mould.

 

[Baryshx]

Is it possible steer an unmanned aircraft from a flight simulator?

As I have mentioned in other forums, my dream is something like this. Joint control with AI or just AI...

 

[Terrain]

Do you want TEI to Crush Kale Arge in turbine development?

Field allocation is a policy of SSB.

We can not waste our resources by duplicating work.

Only when companies have a superior technology can they be allowed to duplicate but not for technologies that are no better than the other.

Field allocation should be between state (TSKGV) companies not private.

 

[Zafer]

Field allocation should be between state (TSKGV) companies not private.

You need to allow private companies to thrive otherwise you get the MKEK of the old times which makes state companies unproductive. SSB is doing a good job at keeping the defense industry vibrant.

 

[Baris]

They think limitations are ok hopefully it wouldn't be the end of the main field of a company.
All I want is TAI of 2030 to not be shocked when it saw Baykar producing a 6th gen unmanned heavy fighter and SSB had to cancel KAAN because of budget allocation and KAAN being obsolete. Most will think I am a bad guy and are in defense mode and are numb to what is coming but all I wanted was for you lot to see why is that like that. I respect you for having an opinion and you might be right but can you see where I am coming from Zafer?

Selcçuk Bayraktar announced that after Kızılelma they will be focusing on space, obviously things can change. But Baykar doesn't seem to have a new project after Kızılelma, for now, they will most likely continue upgrading Kızılelma.

 

[Zafer]

They think limitations are ok hopefully it wouldn't be the end of the main field of a company.
All I want is TAI of 2030 to not be shocked when it saw Baykar producing a 6th gen unmanned heavy fighter and SSB had to cancel KAAN because of budget allocation and KAAN being obsolete. Most will think I am a bad guy and are in defense mode and are numb to what is coming but all I wanted was for you lot to see why is that like that. I respect you for having an opinion and you might be right but can you see where I am coming from Zafer?

TAI is a state company, the military chain of procurement orders TAI to make the products and TAI make them. While Baykar is a private company; its owners have a vision and they make the plane in their vision. Turkish military foresee the future within confines of what is achievable with technology that Türkiye can afford in the time frames they set while Baykar is not required to deliver any predefined product. Baykar can deliver what they can achieve and if the customers like it they will buy it.

 

[Quasar]

You think I'm just a clown, how can KAAN be obsolete it's brand new so hats off and heads shaven after seeing you be the guy that is trying to make us think that you are taking the speed of the competition and the industry lightly, but I can see through you, you are an ill intentioned deceitful agent.
If only they could see how much I am suffering while trying to explain this, that Baykar is not playing and has no brakes. So why should we as TAI have brakes as TAI belongs to all of us.
If the masses could see that they have been played and allocations have stopped their tax money from going to the right directions. Not because Baykar is Erdogans you know what. But also because Baykar has bad intentions, and is not playing, or looking at SSB allocations chart, as they could change that just like that. If only our people could be free and see through the daily struggle of putting food on the table and finally say it as it is. That is why I feel for them that is why this silent cry because life is not fair as it doesn't give it takes.

what you see as KAAN, KIZILELMA and ANKA 3 are just Aerodynamic shells, Certainly Both TAI and Baykar's hands are full at least for a decade or two and more

 

[TheInsider]

After Kızılelma Baykar will focus on a better Kızılelma, space systems, and Baykar is also considering a stealth TB-2/3-like drone.

 

[Ahlatshah]

All want to relieve is the unmanned fighter jet from TUSAŞ which is the last goal for their path as they've shown a couple of years ago. I'm sure it will be better than Kızılelma in terms of stealthy and capabilities. I can't imagine KAAN and Kızılelma flying together because KAAN will be super stealth at the end but I have my doubts about Kızılelma. Yes I'm proud of baykar and the family but if TUSAŞ decides not to make a similar thing to Kızılelma... Noone can explain it to me! That means we are corrupted as f.

That means many people like me will be sure about their doubts and open their eyes. I even question why Anka 1 won't be on TCG Anadolu with TB3? Look at Mojave UAV and Anka 1 TAI could do the necessary modifications faster then TB3 design.

Oh, then again. Tusaş vs Baykar, that is why I quit following trmilitary. Hundreds of times has been explained but here we are. You guys are unbelievable