TR Foreign Policy & Geopolitics

[Rooxbar]

Respectfully, the accusations are hard to believe.

NYT, WP & Guardian (despite everything they get wrong) are still better than anything published around the globe. any criticism of foreign entities they may have, does not propagate from a place of racism, bigotry or xenophobia. Rather it comes from perhaps 'extreme' leftist ideals.

Which may deemed inappropriate or unfair in certain context and situations, still, intents matter.

And they hardly upholds any government propaganda or interests that goes against liberal ideals. In fact, often the most intense criticism of Western foreign policy comes from these very publications.

I think you should read a bit more into the history of those institutions. They do great investigative journalism from time to time, and can be quite brutal in their criticism of their respective governments in the domestic sphere more specifically and also the fact that they can sometimes even publish and discuss whistleblower work against the intelligence and military institutions of their own country should be an ideal that every citizen of states without freedom of press should aspire to and admire; but the Western intelligentsia is still filled to the brim with dewy-eyed liberals who know nothing of history and would repeat anything their respective foreign policy apparatus handed down to them on the one hand and conniving realpolitik adherents on the other who only see as their mission to obscure facts and reality to advance their own interests.

 

[YeşilVatan]

I think you should read a bit more into the history of those institutions. They do great investigative journalism from time to time, and can be quite brutal in their criticism of their respective governments in the domestic sphere more specifically and also the fact that they can sometimes even publish and discuss whistleblower work against the intelligence and military institutions of their own country should be an ideal that every citizen of states without freedom of press should aspire to and admire; but the Western intelligentsia is still filled to the brim with dewy-eyed liberals who know nothing of history and would repeat anything their respective foreign policy apparatus handed down to them on the one hand and conniving realpolitik adherents on the other who only see as their mission to obscure facts and reality to advance their own interests.

Case in point, vast majority of western intelligentsia still reject the existence of Gülen's terror network. How can one even predict anything with such delusions blocking their view?

 

[Rooxbar]

One thing I came to realized conservatives everywhere in muslims countries Hate the West almost no matter what.

However, what is surprising, for many progressive Turks, I see they also hate the West equally. Even though they prefer to live by Western ideals in their socio-cultural and political setting. (Liberal outlook on individual/personal life, secular outlook on collective society and despising anything remotely religious.) That is quite the opposite of how most Progressives and liberals in South Asia would view the West. Geopolitically, much more friendly outlook IMO.

Now i can fully understand how it can be competitive and confrontational geopolitically with the West (unlike in our region) as Turkish National interests often collides with those of the West, but it still baffling how does that results into outright demonization (of the West), paranoia and borderline conspiracy from otherwise educated people.

On another note, many people feel like the West is no longer the West (this is the view of some liberals and leftists, otherwise Islamists and conservatives never thought the West was ever what it claimed to be). But the West until 1920s had a much more open-minded and accommodating educated class who was after the truth qua truth; and also apart from that the west was seen as having this intellectual honesty which helped them find the best paths towards progress. That culture has been in decline for a long time.

 

[Rooxbar]

Case in point, vast majority of western intelligentsia still reject the existence of Gülen's terror network. How can one even predict anything with such delusions blocking their view?

That might be as much the fault of our government's approach as the westerner's unwillingness to entertain the reality of such operations. Our government has been very much opaque in its handling of the situation due to their own involvement in the project, so they don't have a leg to stand on in trying to accuse this nation or that.

 

[Corvus]

Calling your country “traitor” for one(“2 states, 1 treason”), would make many think that you place other stuff like your religion buddies or other states before you. They’re fifth columnists. Everybody can follow their own ideology and belief systems but nation must come first. If it doesn’t for them, what good are they for the nation?

I have some facts for you instead of made-up accusations.

The group that is organizing these protests against SOCAR is called "Filistin İçin Bin Genç" and the founders of this group are leftists. They have people from every ideology and some of them are my atheist friends. They even got beaten by the police in İstiklal Avenue with the support of these so-called "islamist" ak-trolls. They even accused them of being DHKPC terrorists.

Also the same "islamist" group openly confronts MÜSİAD:

RÖPORTAJ | Filistin için Bin Genç: “Gazze için suya sabuna dokunmak istedik. MÜSİAD'ın İsrail ile ticareti var ve sürüyor” - Serbestiyet

İsrail ile ticaret yapan şirketlere karşı yaptıkları eylemlerle konuşulan Filistin İçin Bin Genç Hareketi’nden Ahmet Furkan Polatkan ve Bahar Ari, amaçlarını ve yapacaklarını Serbestiyet’e anlattı: “Filistin konusu kimsenin tekelinde değil. Suya sabuna dokunmak istedik. Bizim laik sermaye...

serbestiyet.com

Your "İslamists"are on Evrensel -which is EMEP- :

https://www.evrensel.net/haber/514779/filistin-icin-bin-genc-bu-soykirimin-suc-ortaklari-olarak-anilacaksiniz

Some tweets of the founder of this "islamist" group:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1796946328892637688

Sure, İslamists are known for having beef with MÜSİAD, being targeted by ak-trolls and interviewing with leftist media. LOL.

I guess facts don't matter in this forum but I still love exposing ignorance.

 

[Corvus]

Everybody can follow their own ideology and belief systems but nation must come first. If it doesn’t for them, what good are they for the nation?

"Nation comes first" is basically nationalism.

So everybody can follow their ideology but they must be nationalists as well? What kind of oxymoron is that? How can someone be, lets say communist, islamist or globalist and nationalist at the same time? That's like supporting Fenerbahçe and Galatasaray at the same time for anyone that knows basic definition of mentioned ideologies.

Also why people has to follow an ideology that is invented by the French 250 years ago? Are we living in a fascist state or something?

 

[Corvus]

Ustad, this isn't happening. So far nothing suggest BD society is going backwards when even Arabs are trying to modernize. Much less women of this generation wear burka.



I agree.

No, you're wrong because he surely knows your country better than you do.

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

Also why people has to follow an ideology that is invented by the French 250 years ago? Are we living in a fascist state or something?

A better question is why do people have to follow a religion invented by Arabs 1400 years ago?

 

[Ryder]

We don't hate the West. We hate their politics. How can a person hate the West? One should be ashamed of what the western civilization has brought to the world. As a Muslim, I ask, what has the so-called Islamic civilization brought to the world? What is their situation now? During the so-called Islamic age, progress was made in the field of science, reason and logic thanks to the translation of the works of the Greeks. Education and reading are also important here. So, again, Western civilization...

If Islamic countries do not prioritize reading, that is, education, nothing will happen in these countries. Because you cannot fool educated people. Thus, the shitty governments that are now in charge of almost all Islamic countries would not be able to come to power. Btw, the first word of the Qur'an is 'Read'.

China, Japan and Korea made progress thanks to the West and what they learned from the West. Then, of course, with education...

Koreans, Chinese and the Japanese work like ants. They work for their collectiveness of their nation.

They also value discipline and hard work.

I dont see any of kind of values like this in Turkiye or even the Muslim world in general. You know why they are too busy backstabbing each other. Treat life in the short term who cares we are all gonna die anyway.

Jews are 14 million on this planet look how they takeover the world. Because money= power.

Too busy having fun rather than looking at the future. Same with the Balkans too.

Secularists and Islamists will never work for their collective. When secularists take power they hold the mantle of oppression. Then the Islamists takeover then they become the oppressors themselves.

In the Middle East, Balkans and the Caucasus. You cant win at all.

Its been 200 years since Tanzminat we are always come to the same old arguments.

What is to be modern

Religion vs science

Tradtionalism vs Modenism

Modern dresses vs Traditional dresses

Church vs State

Role of ethnic minorities

Use of scientific racism

 

[Fuzuli NL]

A better question is why do people have to follow a religion invented by Arabs 1400 years ago?

As an admin of this forum which clearly sites that all members should adhere to the rules especially not insulting religions, I find this a very short-sighted and naive way of describing the religion of the majority of Turks and nearly a quarter of the world's population.
Truly disappointing to see the regurgitation of mainstream Islamophobic media becoming a normality here.
No wonder other members attacking Islam do it so often with no consequences.
You're supposed to lead by example and be a role model here.

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

As an admin of this forum which clearly sites that all members should adhere to the rules especially not insulting religions, I find this a very short-sighted and naive way of describing the religion of the majority of Turks and nearly a quarter of the world's population.
Truly disappointing to see the regurgitation of mainstream Islamophobic media becoming a normality here.
No wonder other members attacking Islam do it so often with no consequences.
You're supposed to lead by example and be a role model here.

Dear Fuzuli,

There's a big difference between insulting a religion and asking a simple question.

Corvus is opposed to our constitution, and there is a large, dangerous group in Türkiye who continually threaten to change the constitution and essentially threaten the statehood of Türkiye.

There is no difference between them and FETÖ or PKK at this point. In fact many of them are aligned with the aforementioned groups.

Yes DefenceHub encourages free speech, but we will not continue to ignore the looming threat.


Edit: I want to add that I don't want DefenceHub to turn into Twitter. Blatant insults aren't allowed, as they just devolve the quality of conversations. I'm also opposed to banning people because of their views. Everyone is free to express themselves within reason.

If other mods/admins think that I crossed the line, they are free to remove my post, it's happened before.

 

[Ryder]

We don't hate the West. We hate their politics. How can a person hate the West? One should be ashamed of what the western civilization has brought to the world. As a Muslim, I ask, what has the so-called Islamic civilization brought to the world? What is their situation now? During the so-called Islamic age, progress was made in the field of science, reason and logic thanks to the translation of the works of the Greeks. Education and reading are also important here. So, again, Western civilization...

If Islamic countries do not prioritize reading, that is, education, nothing will happen in these countries. Because you cannot fool educated people. Thus, the shitty governments that are now in charge of almost all Islamic countries would not be able to come to power. Btw, the first word of the Qur'an is 'Read'.

China, Japan and Korea made progress thanks to the West and what they learned from the West. Then, of course, with education...

Al Jazari and his mechanical inventions would disapprove of the Islamic world just translating Greek knowledge then sitting on their asses with it.

Stop crediting the Romans and the Greeks for everything while ignoring the Turks, Arabs, Indians and the Chinese.

 

[Tonyukuk]

All Central Asian countries are starting to crack down on Islamization. This is probably due to Taliban getting ready for an ISIS style takeover.

US didn't leave all those weapons for no reason. Instead of destroying them, they left them there so Taliban can cause chaos in the future.

 

[Tonyukuk]

One thing I came to realized conservatives everywhere in muslims countries Hate the West almost no matter what.

However, what is surprising, for many progressive Turks, I see they also hate the West equally. Even though they prefer to live by Western ideals in their socio-cultural and political setting. (Liberal outlook on individual/personal life, secular outlook on collective society and despising anything remotely religious.) That is quite the opposite of how most Progressives and liberals in South Asia would view the West. Geopolitically, much more friendly outlook IMO.

Now i can fully understand how it can be competitive and confrontational geopolitically with the West (unlike in our region) as Turkish National interests often collides with those of the West, but it still baffling how does that results into outright demonization (of the West), paranoia and borderline conspiracy from otherwise educated people.

There's two reasons for this.

1) Turks, under Atatürk's command defeated a coalition of western forces. After their victory, Atatürk modernized the nation. It's unlike any other majority-Muslim nation, many of which simply emulated these reforms, but with little success. So secularism and modern lifestyle is a core part of Turkish identity, as it's something that was established by the founding father. Therefore secular people are very nationalistic, and that often means anti-western.
2) When Turkey aligned with the west, US influence started to pour in. As part of the Marshall Plan, the US started interfering in Turkish affairs. They reversed a lot of the changes that Ataturk made and covertly supported Islamists. By the 70s, there were a number of Tarikats which were created by western powers. There's CIA documents from decades ago which say that the Kemalist military must be replaced by a soft Islamist government.. It's easy to see why Secularists are anti-western.

 

[Asena_great]

"Nation comes first" is basically nationalism.

So everybody can follow their ideology but they must be nationalists as well? What kind of oxymoron is that? How can someone be, lets say communist, islamist or globalist and nationalist at the same time? That's like supporting Fenerbahçe and Galatasaray at the same time for anyone that knows basic definition of mentioned ideologies.

Also why people has to follow an ideology that is invented by the French 250 years ago? Are we living in a fascist state or something?

yeah in your eye interest of your tarikat şeyh should come first lol

 

[Asena_great]

All Central Asian countries are starting to crack down on Islamization. This is probably due to Taliban getting ready for an ISIS style takeover.

US didn't leave all those weapons for no reason. Instead of destroying them, they left them there so Taliban can cause chaos in the future.

yup and we have the problem with islamist at our border as you have mentioned.

@Tonyukuk im glad that you come back long time no see. i thought you left for good

 

[Ryder]

I disagree here. People in the West doesn’t give a damn about Turks or Turkey or anyone else. Like everywhere, people just want to live their life without being bothered. Those you describe are conservatives from the Balkans (Greece, Serbia, etc..)

I understand what you mean. The common people in general dont give a shit.

Regardless of who they are Arabs, Europeans, Chinese, Russians, Persians, Jews, Americans or even Australians.

Still this is different to geopolitical struggles.

 

[Barry]

All Central Asian countries are starting to crack down on Islamization. This is probably due to Taliban getting ready for an ISIS style takeover.

US didn't leave all those weapons for no reason. Instead of destroying them, they left them there so Taliban can cause chaos in the future.

Return to monkey Tengri

 

[Ryder]

Caucasus is heating up as usual.

Turkiye's geography is cursed.

 

[Afif]

There's two reasons for this.

1) Turks, under Atatürk's command defeated a coalition of western forces. After their victory, Atatürk modernized the nation. It's unlike any other majority-Muslim nation, many of which simply emulated these reforms, but with little success.

No, there are success other than Turkey. And they aren't little. Anyway, I see what are you saying.