Bangladesh Navy Frigate Program

[Isa Khan]

As far as I know BN wants a SAM with 40km+ range.UK offering us Sea ceptor doesn't confirm that we are going to get it.

It would be great if we had an idea about BN requirements and budget for the upcoming projects.

Just because someone took their photo while they were inspecting the model doesn't mean that they are interested in DW2000L.

Not related but our officials were seen with MaxxPro MRAP before ordering it, so we don't know what might happen cause the specifications are unknown so far.

The ambassador and defense advisor both were at the presentation. They/MBDA could've wanted/showed presentation for both Sea Ceptor or Albatros. Or maybe only for Albatros NG. So why the presentation was only about Sea Ceptor? Perhaps MBDA has some idea about BN's requirements?

And if we don't have any idea about BN requirements then how do even you know that BN wants a SAM with 40km+ range? Not disagreeing about a 40+km range SAM though.

And it would be best if we stay away from K-SAAM.Its performance was below average in the tests conducted in during it's development.

Yeah i know, not much info is available about it but i found so far it has only 20km range. That's why i was wondering if it's possible to choose KM-SAM instead.

Doubts arise over South Korea’s ‘Sea Bow’ missile interception ability

South Korea's surface-to-air anti-missile project hit a snag following test failures in 2016, when two of the five missiles missed their respective targets.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Baron]

Not related but our officials were seen with MaxxPro MRAP before ordering it, so we don't know what might happen cause the specifications are unknown so far.

The ambassador and defense advisor both were at the presentation. They/MBDA could've wanted/showed presentation for both Sea Ceptor or Albatros. Or maybe only for Albatros NG. So why the presentation was only about Sea Ceptor? Perhaps MBDA has some idea about BN's requirements?

And if we don't have any idea about BN requirements then how do even you know that BN wants a SAM with 40km+ range? Not disagreeing about a 40+km range SAM though.



Yeah i know, not much info is available about it but i found so far it has only 20km range. That's why i was wondering if it's possible to

Doubts arise over South Korea’s ‘Sea Bow’ missile interception ability

South Korea's surface-to-air anti-missile project hit a snag following test failures in 2016, when two of the five missiles missed their respective targets.

www.defensenews.com

A relative who serves in BN told me about it(40km range SAM).

You should understand that it was MBDA UK not MBDA Italy.If your requirement is self and local airdefence they will offer you sea ceptor(25+km) and raytheon will offer you ESSM(50+km).Canada and Finland both were offered sea ceptor for local airdefence but both selected ESSM.Only because they offered us sea ceptor doesn't confirm that our requirement is a SAM with 25+km range.

Even if we don't buy ESSM because it's US made then there are options like albatross-ng,mica ng,g40,aster15,umkhonto.

 

[Anmdt]

A relative who serves in BN told me about it(40km range SAM).

You should understand that it was MBDA UK not MBDA Italy.If your requirement is self and local airdefence they will offer you sea ceptor(25+km) and raytheon will offer you ESSM(50+km).Canada and Finland both were offered sea ceptor for local airdefence but both selected ESSM.Only because they offered us sea ceptor doesn't confirm that our requirement is a SAM with 25+km range.

Even if we don't buy ESSM because it's US made then there are options like albatross-ng,mica ng,g40,aster15,umkhonto.

ESSM does not really replace K-SAAM or RAM, neither MICA does.
The only missile comparable to RAM in terms of performance (minimum engagement range, fast response) is the CAMM, not even CAMM-ER.

Canada will use CAMM.

Also there will need congress approval for ESSM if i am not mistaken, and i doubt if Block II with active guidance can be exported. So it makes current selections down to sea ceptor, ram or K-SAAM.

You can get K-SAAM, require it to be tested under conditions defined by BN, if it is doesn't pass then you don't buy it. It is simple.

 

[Baron]

ESSM does not really replace K-SAAM or RAM, neither MICA does.
The only missile comparable to RAM in terms of performance (minimum engagement range, fast response) is the CAMM, not even CAMM-ER.

Canada will use CAMM.

Also there will need congress approval for ESSM if i am not mistaken, and i doubt if Block II with active guidance can be exported. So it makes current selections down to sea ceptor, ram or K-SAAM.

You can get K-SAAM, require it to be tested under conditions defined by BN, if it is doesn't pass then you don't buy it. It is simple.

When did I say ESSM replaces K-SAAM or RAM ? And how do you know that BN only wants to have a point defence SAM so CAMM,K-SAAM,RAM are the only option?(CAMM can provide local air defence)

I was talking about local air defence.Canada selected CAMM as a point defence system.And Finland was also offered CAMM but they selected ESSM.

Bangladesh did not sign the two agreements necessary to acquire major US products.So ESSM and any US SAM is currently out of question.

 

[Anmdt]

Canada and Finland both were offered sea ceptor for local airdefence but both selected ESSM

Do i understand this wrong? Canada can still use ESSM as point defence with Mk41 but for CIWS/CIADS purposes they opt for CAMM instead of RAM, not CAMM-ER. So for point defence and local air defence they are using ESSM, not CAMM but for close-air defence they will use CAMM.

Canada selected CAMM as a point defence system

MBDA Confirms Sea Ceptor Order for Canadian Surface Combatant - Naval News

MBDA has been awarded a contract by Lockheed Martin Canada to equip the Royal Canadian Navy's new Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) with the Sea Ceptor air defence weapon system.

www.navalnews.com

They have selected it as CIWS / CIADS. Just to prevent confusion they are not getting -ER, but base version for rapid response and close protection. CAMM (without -ER) does not provide a true local air defence but rather Close air defence in terms of what RAM provides.

CAMM is best effecitive in 0.3-10 km (yet can target slow moving threats at longer distances) while CAMM-ER/ESSM/Albatros is best effective 5-40 km

When did I say ESSM replaces K-SAAM or RAM ? And how do you know that BN only wants to have a point defence SAM so CAMM,K-SAAM,RAM are the only option?(CAMM can provide local air defence)

CAMM and CAMM-ER combined together is a good solution but again there are certain perks of firing missiles from a moving frame like K-SAAM and RAM does.

So it is, either one of CAMM,K-SAAM,RAM for CIWS
Or, ESSM, MICA-NG, Albatros, CAMM-ER for point defense.
For MICA it should be only the NG, the base MICA is better to avoid.

Canada and Finland both were offered sea ceptor for local airdefence but both selected ESSM

This sentence means, sea ceptor replaces ESSM, but the sea ceptor Canada has got , which is the CAMM, replaces RAM not ESSM.

 

[Baron]

Do i understand this wrong? Canada can still use ESSM as point defence with Mk41 but for CIWS/CIADS purposes they opt for CAMM instead of RAM, not CAMM-ER. So for point defence and local air defence they are using ESSM, not CAMM but for close-air defence they will use CAMM.

By point defence system I meant CIWS/CIADS like RAM,CAMM,K-SAAM.ESSM,Albatross-NG are for local air defence.

 

[Baron]

This sentence means, sea ceptor replaces ESSM, but the sea ceptor Canada has got , which is the CAMM, replaces RAM not ESSM.

As far as I know in Canada sea ceptor was offered as a direct competitor of ESSM.But they selected it as a point defence system.It does not means sea ceptor as a missile actually replaces ESSM.But they do have some common characteristics.

Both CAMM and ESSM were offered to Finland and New Zealand.New Zealand selected CAMM and Finland seems to have gone for ESSM.Same happened in Chile.There CAMM won the tender against ESSM and Barak.

 

[Isa Khan]

CAMM is best effecitive in 0.3-10 km (yet can target slow moving threats at longer distances)

But MBDA says it has 25+ km range and can intercept supersonic anti-ship missile. Janes said the range exceeded to 65km during test.

CAMM and CAMM-ER combined together is a good solution but again there are certain perks of firing missiles from a moving frame like K-SAAM and RAM does.

K-SAAM isn't fired from moving frame.

 

[Madokafc]

K SAAM would be only compatible with KVLS only or other Korean Made platform.

 

[Anmdt]

But MBDA says it has 25+ km range and can intercept supersonic anti-ship missile. Janes said the range exceeded to 65km during test.



K-SAAM isn't fired from moving frame.

CAMM-ER exceeds 65, not CAMM. they should have mixed it up or even if they are sure it should be one of the tests conducted without any guidance but pure rocket mode (like an artillery rocket) to measure engine efficiency.
The range calculations are highly sensitive, like ESSM can go up to 70-80 kilometers, but it doesn't have much of kinetic ability left after a certain range so it is often called 40+ km in range beacause it is effective around there and slightly beyond..
Same applies for CAMM, it may hit a helicopter ,UAV at 25km, but will have troubles with anti-ship missiles above a certain range. While for RAM the 10+ km range is given for anti-ship missiles.

I thought K-SAAM was like the Chinese one, copied from RAM, then it is not comparable as well.
I don't really like vertical launched missiles dedicated for CIWS role.

 

[Isa Khan]

Roketsan is working on make the MDAS VLS ready before the acceptance trials of I-class frigate TCG Istanbul. The system will be able to launch Hisar - O (I-class), Hisar - U/Siper, G- 40 SAM and Gezgin land-attack cruise missile (TF2000 class). The article is saying it will be able to fire Atmaca too though i haven't seen anything about it so far.

Turkey to make its own maritime missile-launching system after sanctions interrupt Lockheed plans

Turkish defense company Roketsan is to develop a vertical launching system for the country’s first locally made frigate, after American sanctions disrupted original procurement plans, said naval platforms acquisition official Alper Kose.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Baron]

Roketsan is working on make the MDAS VLS ready before the acceptance trials of I-class frigate TCG Istanbul. The system will be able to launch Hisar - O (I-class), Hisar - U/Siper, G- 40 SAM and Gezgin land-attack cruise missile (TF2000 class). The article is saying it will be able to fire Atmaca too though i haven't seen anything about it so far.

Turkey to make its own maritime missile-launching system after sanctions interrupt Lockheed plans

Turkish defense company Roketsan is to develop a vertical launching system for the country’s first locally made frigate, after American sanctions disrupted original procurement plans, said naval platforms acquisition official Alper Kose.

www.defensenews.com

I thought I-class is going to use g40.

 

[Isa Khan]

I thought I-class is going to use g40.

Not even in test phase yet AFAIK. I can't remember where, but when the TCG Istanbul was launched i read that it will be armed with Hisar- O. Turkish members can correct me if i am wrong.

Turkey launches its first Istanbul-class F 515 frigate built for Turki

According to a Tweet published on January 23, 2021, Turkey has officially launched the first Istanbul-class F 515 frigate on January 23, 2021. The launchin

www.navyrecognition.com

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Not even in test phase yet AFAIK. I can't remember where, but when the TCG Istanbul was launched i read that it will be armed with Hisar- O. Turkish members can correct me if i am wrong.

Turkey launches its first Istanbul-class F 515 frigate built for Turki

According to a Tweet published on January 23, 2021, Turkey has officially launched the first Istanbul-class F 515 frigate on January 23, 2021. The launchin

www.navyrecognition.com

At present, Navy is waiting Roketsan/Aselsan Hisar-Rf Naval missile. G40 soft launch quad pack missile is the project of Tubitak Sage. They are developing and offering this technology to Armed Forces. Tubitak is a R&D institute of Turkey and their mission is to develop state of art technologies and deliver them to other institutes. In this aspect, Turkish institutes will benefit from not only G40 but also longer range Tozkoparan missiles if Turkish Army wants to use these missile.

 

[Isa Khan]

Damen's SIGMA 11515 and Meko A200 at DEFEA 2021 for the Hellenic navy. "IF" we can't integrate FL-3000N then perhaps we will have to choose something like Oerlikon Millennium and add two RCWS instead of one on port side and starboard side.

 

[Baron]

Damen's SIGMA 11515 and Meko A200 at DEFEA 2021 for the Hellenic navy. "IF" we can't integrate FL-3000N then perhaps we will have to choose something like Oerlikon Millennium and add two RCWS instead of one on port side and starboard side.

We won't need FL3000N if they select CAMM or aster-15.

 

[Madokafc]

Interesting enough, nowadays many countries had started and in process of build up their Navy, and that's including Frigates programme. Bangladesh can exact many lesson from their procurement process and result.

The online Frigates program right now

1. US Navy, with Constelation class Frigate
2. Marocco Royal Navy, still not decided
3. Poland Navy, still not decided
4. Ukraine Navy, the greatest contender here is Babcock and Turkey
5. Hellenic Navy, with Damen, Fincantieri and Babcock as the contender
6. Indonesian Navy, Fremm is chosen alongside with Itver Huitveld class variant
7. Egypt Navy, Fremm is chosen
8. Japan, they starting up with indigenous design FFM 30 Frigate
9. Spanish Navy, they had chosen five local Made F110 Frigates in 2019
10. Royal Navy, they had ordered Type 26 and Type 31 class Frigate
11. Royal Australian Navy, chose Type 26 class Frigate
12. Turkey with their Istambul class Frigate part of Milgem programme
13. Indian Navy, with Nilgiri class Frigate
14. German Navy, with Dutch omega class design

and among other

 

[Isa Khan]

We won't need FL3000N if they select CAMM or aster-15.

You previously said BN wants a 40+km range SAM.

Indonesian Navy, Fremm is chosen alongside with Itver Huitveld class variant

Why is UK trying to sell Type-31e? Do you still have requirement for more frigates?

 

[Madokafc]

You previously said BN wants a 40+km range SAM.



Why is UK trying to sell Type-31e? Do you still have requirement for more frigates?

We had requirement for 16 large ocean going Frigates, so far only got eight in contract.

 

[Baron]

You previously said BN wants a 40+km range SAM.

My relative is not Shaheen Iqbal.Don't take him too seriously.