Greece Greek air power in the 21st century

[Pantelis]

Recent reports have detailed Turkey’s efforts to acquire new and upgraded F-16 fighter jets from the United States. After the 2016 attempted coup against Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s air force has been clouded in deep uncertainty. Spare parts shortages have impacted aircraft availability, while numerous government purges have dented the morale of air force combat pilots. This is a crucial development for Greece’s security. For over 50 years, the Turkish Air Force has been Ankara’s long spear in the Aegean. Things are now changing though.

The Hellenic Air Force has entered a period of big changes and challenges. The purchase of Viper modernization packages for the F-16s, the arrival of the first batch of French Dassault Rafale aircraft and the likely purchase of state-of-the-art F-35 jets will significantly bolster Greece’s airpower. Barring any major development, the country could at the dawn of the next decade possess the region’s mightiest air force after Israel. With a 200-strong fleet of mostly fourth- and fifth-generation aircraft, the Hellenic Air Force will be able to muster air supremacy in potential theaters of operations.

Gaining a technological edge over a rival should not make one disregard the human factor. Establishing an international aviation training center in Kalamata in the Peloponnese – with Israeli know-how – would significantly upgrade training standards. Meanwhile, frequent joint training exercises with US, French and Israeli counterparts offers valuable experience to our pilots and engineers. All that allows optimism regarding the balance of airpower between Greece and Turkey which is gradually swinging in the former’s favor.

‘The purchase of Viper modernization packages for the F-16s, the arrival of the first batch of French Dassault Rafale aircraft and the likely purchase of state-of-the-art F-35 jets will significantly bolster Greece’s airpower’

However, there is an oft-overseen factor. The Hellenic Air Force is permeated by a culture of victory which is based on the tradition of heroism and self-sacrifice. In February 1913, pilot Michail Moutousis and his observer Aristidis Moraitinis flew a Maurice Farman hydroplane to reconnoiter and bomb the Ottoman fleet in the Dardanelles – the first naval-air operation in military history. In November 1940, pilot Marinos Mitralexis managed to bring down an Italian bomber approaching Thessaloniki by ramming its tail. Greek pilots excelled in the Korean War, conducting risky casualty evacuation missions and dropping supplies to cut-off allied units. In July 1974, Operation Nike (Victory) with the Noratlas transport planes had all the characteristics of a suicide mission. From 1974 until today, the Hellenic Air Force and its personnel have been waging an endless battle in the skies of the Aegean. No other air force in the world has been operating for 48 consecutive years against a relentless rival. Nikos Salmas, Konstantinos Iliakis and many others fell in the line of duty defending Greek sovereignty. The state and the public must show their gratitude to those who constantly serve the Greek interest.

That said, the concept of airpower is neither unchanging nor inflexible. NATO’s intervention in Kosovo was perhaps the only war to have been won from the air. The war in Ukraine demonstrates the limits of airpower. Despite the dominance of the Russian Air Force, the Kremlin relies on reinforced ground forces to achieve its objectives. At the same time, the use of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) in numerous conflicts (such as Libya and Nagorno-Karabakh) has generated an intense debate over the future of conventional aircraft. Many analysts claim that the sixth-generation fighters, to be manufactured in one or two decades from now, will rely exclusively on artificial intelligence (AI) technologies. In order to complete its big advance, the Hellenic Air Force will have to complement the purchase of F-35s with the developments of a locally produced generation of UAVs.

In any case, the Hellenic Air Force now operates in a complex operational environment with a wide range of challenges. As multi-domain battle becomes the dominant war fighting concept, it needs to function as a partner of the other two military forces. The military threat facing our country requires the maximum possible level of interdisciplinarity and interoperability. For this reason, the Air Force must acquire a new holistic understanding that goes beyond the physical dimension of air.

Reinforcing the Hellenic Air Force is not a luxury but a necessity. In 1912, the late statesman Eleftherios Venizelos said that “the airplane is the appropriate weapon of the weak. The Greeks’ risk-taking nature will render this a glorious weapon of war – so it will offer great service in the future.” Greece’s wings are covering the Aegean and they are starting to cover free Cyprus. Reactions from across the Aegean are more than a sign of irritation. In reality, they indicate the loss of a considerable military advantage formerly enjoyed by Ankara. From now on, they who do not respect Greece will feel intimidated by it.

 

[Rodeo]

View attachment 46752


Recent reports have detailed Turkey’s efforts to acquire new and upgraded F-16 fighter jets from the United States. After the 2016 attempted coup against Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s air force has been clouded in deep uncertainty. Spare parts shortages have impacted aircraft availability, while numerous government purges have dented the morale of air force combat pilots. This is a crucial development for Greece’s security. For over 50 years, the Turkish Air Force has been Ankara’s long spear in the Aegean. Things are now changing though.

The Hellenic Air Force has entered a period of big changes and challenges. The purchase of Viper modernization packages for the F-16s, the arrival of the first batch of French Dassault Rafale aircraft and the likely purchase of state-of-the-art F-35 jets will significantly bolster Greece’s airpower. Barring any major development, the country could at the dawn of the next decade possess the region’s mightiest air force after Israel. With a 200-strong fleet of mostly fourth- and fifth-generation aircraft, the Hellenic Air Force will be able to muster air supremacy in potential theaters of operations.

Gaining a technological edge over a rival should not make one disregard the human factor. Establishing an international aviation training center in Kalamata in the Peloponnese – with Israeli know-how – would significantly upgrade training standards. Meanwhile, frequent joint training exercises with US, French and Israeli counterparts offers valuable experience to our pilots and engineers. All that allows optimism regarding the balance of airpower between Greece and Turkey which is gradually swinging in the former’s favor.



However, there is an oft-overseen factor. The Hellenic Air Force is permeated by a culture of victory which is based on the tradition of heroism and self-sacrifice. In February 1913, pilot Michail Moutousis and his observer Aristidis Moraitinis flew a Maurice Farman hydroplane to reconnoiter and bomb the Ottoman fleet in the Dardanelles – the first naval-air operation in military history. In November 1940, pilot Marinos Mitralexis managed to bring down an Italian bomber approaching Thessaloniki by ramming its tail. Greek pilots excelled in the Korean War, conducting risky casualty evacuation missions and dropping supplies to cut-off allied units. In July 1974, Operation Nike (Victory) with the Noratlas transport planes had all the characteristics of a suicide mission. From 1974 until today, the Hellenic Air Force and its personnel have been waging an endless battle in the skies of the Aegean. No other air force in the world has been operating for 48 consecutive years against a relentless rival. Nikos Salmas, Konstantinos Iliakis and many others fell in the line of duty defending Greek sovereignty. The state and the public must show their gratitude to those who constantly serve the Greek interest.

That said, the concept of airpower is neither unchanging nor inflexible. NATO’s intervention in Kosovo was perhaps the only war to have been won from the air. The war in Ukraine demonstrates the limits of airpower. Despite the dominance of the Russian Air Force, the Kremlin relies on reinforced ground forces to achieve its objectives. At the same time, the use of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) in numerous conflicts (such as Libya and Nagorno-Karabakh) has generated an intense debate over the future of conventional aircraft. Many analysts claim that the sixth-generation fighters, to be manufactured in one or two decades from now, will rely exclusively on artificial intelligence (AI) technologies. In order to complete its big advance, the Hellenic Air Force will have to complement the purchase of F-35s with the developments of a locally produced generation of UAVs.

In any case, the Hellenic Air Force now operates in a complex operational environment with a wide range of challenges. As multi-domain battle becomes the dominant war fighting concept, it needs to function as a partner of the other two military forces. The military threat facing our country requires the maximum possible level of interdisciplinarity and interoperability. For this reason, the Air Force must acquire a new holistic understanding that goes beyond the physical dimension of air.

Reinforcing the Hellenic Air Force is not a luxury but a necessity. In 1912, the late statesman Eleftherios Venizelos said that “the airplane is the appropriate weapon of the weak. The Greeks’ risk-taking nature will render this a glorious weapon of war – so it will offer great service in the future.” Greece’s wings are covering the Aegean and they are starting to cover free Cyprus. Reactions from across the Aegean are more than a sign of irritation. In reality, they indicate the loss of a considerable military advantage formerly enjoyed by Ankara. From now on, they who do not respect Greece will feel intimidated by it.

Turkey has many irons in the fire. A full-fledged KIZILELMA alone could render any future air "superiority" you speak of obsolete, let alone the rest.

We design our stuff and make them. We build industries around them. We gain know-how and export the products. That's the real pride. Not bragging about someone else's toys like the Saudis do.

However, I actually support Greece's new strategy to buy newer, advanced weapons. It is the one thing that'll ensure the support to our indigenous defense industry. You see, Greece having better weapons will enable Turkey to support local defense projects(both the will and the money) regardless of the political administration. It is the only thing for ensuring our most advanced technologies to see the light. And I thank Greece for that.

 

[I_Love_F16]

As far as I know Turkish Aerospace is licensed to produce F-16. So they can likely manufacture their own spare-parts. Turkiye is in no way similar to Iran in this concern.

 

[NicXes7]

The four countries Turkiye may have to control to gain full superiority over the eastern Mediterranean are Greece, Libya, Israel, and Cyprus. If Egypt co-operates with Turkiye against Greece then the Turks could annex the island of Crete and maintain pressure on but not invade the rest of Greek territory. If Iran could maintain control over Lebanon and Syria it still may not be enough to challenge the Turks in the eastern Mediterranean.

 

[Manomed]

The four countries Turkiye may have to control to gain full superiority over the eastern Mediterranean are Greece, Libya, Israel, and Cyprus. If Egypt co-operates with Turkiye against Greece then the Turks could annex the island of Crete and maintain pressure on but not invade the rest of Greek territory. If Iran could maintain control over Lebanon and Syria it still may not be enough to challenge the Turks in the eastern Mediterranean.

Egypt is fully under the controll of france there ain't no way they will ally with us.

Turkey should stop defending muslim brotherhood tho these guys are nothing but terrorists who destroy coutnries.

 

[NicXes7]

Egypt is fully under the controll of france there ain't no way they will ally with us.

Turkey should stop defending muslim brotherhood tho these guys are nothing but terrorists who destroy coutnries.

All Turkiye may need from Egypt is for them to agree to remain neutral in any conflict between Greece and Turkiye. Egypt may agree to co-operate in this manner if Turkiye eliminates possible threats on Egypts borders, helps maintain peace, and agrees to not encroach upon Egyptian interests and/or territories.

 

[Manomed]

All Turkiye may need from Egypt is for them to agree to remain neutral in any conflict between Greece and Turkiye. Egypt may agree to co-operate in this manner if Turkiye eliminates possible threats on Egypts borders, helps maintain peace, and agrees to not encroach upon Egyptian interests and/or territories.

We should have never Interfered with the egyptians because of some rabia bullshit.

Recently there is more positive talks between egypt and Turkey that is actually good news.

Turkiye dropped some muslim brotherhood officials to egyptian authorities.

 

[Lool]

We should have never Interfered with the egyptians because of some rabia bullshit.

Recently there is more positive talks between egypt and Turkey that is actually good news.

Turkiye dropped some muslim brotherhood officials to egyptian authorities.

Sadly, no they didnt
The talks between Egyptian and Turkish officials are going at a really slow pace because of this exact issue
Rn, Turkey doesnt wanna to kick all of the Muslim brotherhood out of Turkey in order to use them as a pressure card against Egypt; whenever they speak, the military administration of Egypt becomes anxious since the people are fed up with the current economic crisis. Just today, the pound recorded the lowest value ever against the dollar in its history; in addition to the fact, that Egypt is in massive risk of default with debt at 80% of GDP

Rn, the turkish govt wants guarantees that if they kicked out all of the muslim brotherhood members, Egypt will remain either neutral or on Turkey's side (considering that they will gain more territory this way). However, the Egyptian side didnt want to provide any guarantees as they believe that they are in a position of power due to Western support

And tbh, the turkish govt is right on this matter, the moment all of the muslim brotherhood are in Egypt's hands, Egypt will immediately betray Turkey to gain favour points with the West. Dont forget that France and Greece are the only 2 nations blocking any possible sanctions on the military regime due to the abysmal human rights record; hell, meanwhile, the same western nations are pissing Turkey with Osman Kavala for the last 5 years or so

Therefore, while the military administration in Egypt "appears" neutral right now; it is without a doubt on Greece's side

Egypt also has been buying the silence of the West by buying extravagant weaponry at top prices to sustain the Western defence industry. According to Emmanuel Macron, thx to Egypt, they have enough orders to sustain the french defense industry till 2030. The egyptian military will not sacrifice all of this to side with Turkey especially when they are begging any nation or bank to supply them with 33 billion dollars to pay their interests for the fiscal years 2022-2023

 

[Pantelis]

Turkey has many irons in the fire. A full-fledged KIZILELMA alone could render any future air "superiority" you speak of obsolete, let alone the rest.

We design our stuff and make them. We build industries around them. We gain know-how and export the products. That's the real pride. Not bragging about someone else's toys like the Saudis do.

However, I actually support Greece's new strategy to buy newer, advanced weapons. It is the one thing that'll ensure the support to our indigenous defense industry. You see, Greece having better weapons will enable Turkey to support local defense projects(both the will and the money) regardless of the political administration. It is the only thing for ensuring our most advanced technologies to see the light. And I thank Greece for that.

do not forget that greece has political supremacy

 

[Pantelis]

As far as I know Turkish Aerospace is licensed to produce F-16. So they can likely manufacture their own spare-parts. Turkiye is in no way similar to Iran in this concern.

this is not possible. turkey cannot manufacture F16 parts without a US permit.

 

[Manomed]

this is not possible. turkey cannot manufacture F16 parts without a US permit.

We are doing that for years TAI is producing spare parts for F16 looks like your cheap propaganda is falling apart cypriot .

Greece has political supremacy because crying is your duty not ours.

I wonder If greeks can live without mentioning "Barbarian Turks" once.

Stop your claims on anatolian soil and istanbul then maybe we can take you seriously here.

 

[I_Love_F16]

this is not possible. turkey cannot manufacture F16 parts without a US permit.

Can you provide a source that clearly state that there is a shortage of spare parts regarding Turkish F-16 ? Preferably non Greek sources if that’s possible.