TR Imprisoning Istanbul mayor and it’s ramifications for defence industry

[Turkic]

Good, Erdogan is exactly in this category, and even worse than that. So he should be in jail like Ekrem Imamoglu, right ? Please answer this question.

Do you mean Erdoğan provided financials to any terrorist organisation ? And even worse what ?

 

[Lool]

In true sense of democracy no such thing should be allowed to occur. Can you give an example in Western Europe where it has taken place please?

Bro, Biden tried to imprison Trump a few years ago and during his "supposedly" assassination attempt, it was reported that Biden's team had heavily downgraded Trump's protection

And while not in Western Europe but a part of the EU nonetheless, nations like Romania had banned their right-leaning and anti-Ukraine politician from joining the race

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/romanias-top-court-says-it-barred-candidate-presidential-race-over-pro-russian-2024-10-08/

You have also Lithuania, an EU-member state, that reportedly revoked the right of 70,000+ citizens from voting

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1905147510114382127

Bro, current democracy is a sham. It is nothing more than a weapon used to suppress nations in order to align with the views of "certain" elites from "certain" nations

 

[Saithan]

The idea behind democracy is good and decent. And it's the better alternative to many other government forms.

If you have the gall to spit out negative things about something, you should have the decency to praise some of the good parts as well.

The world is not black and white. You know what they did in old days when a new ruler came to power. They killed all the opponents and their families too.

you know what sweden did when they conquered Skåne, which was part of Denmark in ancient times. killed off all the males.

Democracy requires that people are able to think for themselves and be critical of what's going on. And also have sanity of a certain level.

The alternative is worse, but living in a democracy and standing up for democracy requires you to understand what the alternative is.

And there is one truth that can't be denied. Democracy is not used to hold countries back, it's because they are not developed that democracy doesn't work for them.

Power corrupts.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Biden tried to imprison Trump a few years ago and during his "supposedly" assassination attempt, it was reported that Biden's team had heavily downgraded Trump's protection

And while not in Western Europe but a part of the EU nonetheless, nations like Romania had banned their right-leaning and anti-Ukraine politician from joining the race

These are not replies to my question.
Western democracy is the operative word.
Biden allowed the US judicial system to prosecute a former president who supported and actively urged insurrection against the country’s legislative body. Result ; Trump is the President!

The only real comparable example of such an act is in Russia where the opposition leader Alexei Navalny was put in prison and “somehow” allowed to die whilst serving his 19 year sentence. Since it is not Western democracy, it too is not an answer to my question.

 

[Costin1984]

Bro, Biden tried to imprison Trump a few years ago and during his "supposedly" assassination attempt, it was reported that Biden's team had heavily downgraded Trump's protection

And while not in Western Europe but a part of the EU nonetheless, nations like Romania had banned their right-leaning and anti-Ukraine politician from joining the race

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/romanias-top-court-says-it-barred-candidate-presidential-race-over-pro-russian-2024-10-08/

You have also Lithuania, an EU-member state, that reportedly revoked the right of 70,000+ citizens from voting

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1905147510114382127

Bro, current democracy is a sham. It is nothing more than a weapon used to suppress nations in order to align with the views of "certain" elites from "certain" nations

Romania banned him,not because he's far right, but because important sums of money pushed his campaign, without declaring from where those money come from.There was an obvious interference of a foreign power (Russia).Every candidate must be transparent with his campaign funds, and his backers foreign or internal.He wasn't.

 

[Anastasius]

People who decry democracy because "muh Western hypocrisy", never cared about democracy or a functioning government in the first place, they just want to shut down all criticism of their preferred form of governance.

Yes, democracy has flaws. And yet it is still better than basically every other system out there. And generally when people point out democracy's flaws, they are pointing out examples of people abusing democratic systems to institute more horrible forms of government. So it's not a problem of democracy per say but people abusing their freedoms under democracy to seize power and institute a more limiting form of politics where they are in control.

In which case the solution is not to cry that democracy has failed, it's to teach those who tried to abuse its weaknesses a very brutal lesson in "humility".

 

[TR_123456]

And generally when people point out democracy's flaws, they are pointing out examples of people abusing democratic systems to institute more horrible forms of government. So it's not a problem of democracy per say but people abusing their freedoms under democracy to seize power and institute a more limiting form of politics where they are in control.

This.

But this also means that a society needs to be ready for democracy.
Most are not!!!

 

[ADMusa]

I agree that Israel appears to be seen as a special case by many countries, allowed to commit whatever war crimes it chooses. I find it shameful that the UK does not stand against this behaviour more actively.

I object to my country being involved in arms supply to Israel due to its abuses of human rights. I also object to my country being involved in arms supply to regimes intent on denying their citizens the rights that typify a democracy including the freedom of citizens to choose their political representatives, the freedom of citizens to express dissent etc. Erdogan appears intent on stamping out functioning democracy in Turkiye. Yes, I am opposed to the appalling actions of Israel in Gaza. I am also opposed to the appalling actions of Erdogan in Turkiye.

I do believe that Imamoglu's arrest is politically motivated. But I can hardly blame Erdogan. The West has been supporting Turkiye's opposition against Erdogan for many years now. They attack Turkiye's currency to cause suffering and make Erdogan lose the election. They attempted a coup that killed hudreds and wounded over a thousand. They are trying to create a PKK threat for Turkiye in Syria. Together with their Gulf Arab puppets, they are creating economic and security problems for Turkiye and its allies in Libya, Somalia, Syria, Sudan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and others. What do you expect Erdogan to do? Hand over the Turkiye he worked so hard to build - and hand it over to the secularists and their Western masters? They are calling on the West for help because the West is their ally. Yet, the West is Turkiye's biggest threat anyhow you look at it.

Sometimes my sincere comments here come off as offensive. But I like to state facts instead pretending things are the way they look. The only thing left for the secularists in Turkiye is their political parties and politicians. They've been weakened in the military, police, judiciary, media, and in every Turkish institution. Their best bet to recover is through a political victory, specifically by winning the presidential seat. Obviously, Erdogan is determined to not let that happen. Turkiye's Islamists have also suffered at the hands of secularists in the past. They even hanged an elected prime minister. Their cruelty to islamists is worse than whatever Erdogan is doing to them now. At least he isn't hanging or shooting then en-mass like they did to Islamists.

I'm not a Turk, but I'm very aware of geopolitical events, and I know what's happening in Turkiye isn't just about Turkiye. It's bigger than Turkiye. Turkiye is the last remaining defender of the Muslim world. I love Turkiye more than my country because of what it does to save the lives of Muslims around the world. This isn't important for most secularists, but it means everything to me. Islamists must continue to hold power in Turkiye to check Western aggression in the MENA region and Muslim world - even if it means using undemocratic means. Fuck democracy. It's a tool both Islamists and secularists use when it suits their interest. The people protesting today won't be in the streets had some secular military general siezed power from Erdogan 9 years ago.

 

[ADMusa]

You have your views on democracy. I have my mine, which I have shared with my prime minister regarding the supply of Eurofighter to Turkiye.

I will credit the Turkish political leadership with one thing - Turkish forces have clearly not been authorised to use lethal force against the thousands in the streets expressing their opposition to Erdogan's attack on their democracy. I hope UK forces will be as restrained in dealing with demonstrators in the streets should the UK PM imprison his principal political rival.

It's a good thing that you differentiate between Europes great ally, El-Sisi, and Erdogan.
You keep talking about Eurofighter as if Turkiye won't be powerful without it. Turkiye is already militarily more powerful than any European country despite not having your Eurofighter. The only thing Turkiye lacks now is nukes. It's already a great convential military power with fearless and well-trained soldiers. Besides, it'll soon have an indegenous fighter jet.

Personally, I wish Erdogan never buys planes from the West or any military equipment. Western military supplies cannot be trusted. They may be implanted with hidden devices that give away their location in times of war. I'm 100% against Turkiye buying fighter jets from Europe or America.

 

[ADMusa]

And i again i'm repeating what i said, those words have no meanings because they are not honest in goverment levels, i don't doubt you have honest views while stating those as a person about democracy, but certain countries can't talk about democracy one day and stage a coup in a random country the next day. I'm in no way in support of what is happening in Turkey nor do i like Erdogan due to my ideological views, but the hypocrisy is out there.

No western country can credibly talk about democracy. They are waging a low-intensity crusade against the Muslim world and democracy is one of the tools they use to remove unfriendly leaders like Gaddafi, Saddam, Omar Al-Bahir, Bashar Al-Assad, Erdogan, and others. I can talk with Turkiye's secularists because most of them patriotic citizens who wish well for Turkiye. But the zionist West? No.
Fix the mess that is Israel before lecturing us on human rights.

 

[ADMusa]

He didn't, that is a gross misrepresentation of what happened. DoJ was investigating Trump, rightfully, for his role in January 6 insurrection AND having highly classified documents in his fucking bathroom in his publicly accessible club. And the only reason he pardoned his family was because Trump quite literally talked about going after them during his campaign multiple times. It wasn't tactful, but it wasn't because he was trying to hide something. Even Hunter Biden's trial and sentence was blown way out of proportion because of who he was, there were multiple examples given at the time how his case would've turned out if it wasn't politicized because it was just about owning a gun and nothing else.

Two things are very fucking different and you've clearly fell hard for some US right wing nutjob lies mate.

The 2020 US presidential election was rigged. I did my research and came up with this conclusion.
They did not rig the second election because it could have easily sparked a civil war in the US.
It's important for the Muslim world that the AKP continues ruling in Turkiye by whatever means. Sorry to the secularists. But we'd rather offend you than have the US and its allies continue to massacre Muslims throughout the MENA region. If there's one country that can stop this Western aggression, it's a nuclear-armed Turkiye. Can't wait for the day that Turkiye tests its first nuclear device. I'd be one of the happiest people on Earth when that happens, and it will, Insha Allah.

 

[ADMusa]

The UK routinely denies the rights of it's citizens. If you know anyone that needed the welfare state you know they've suffered trying to get assistance as is their right.

Why do you compare the UK to Turkiye? it is Israel's genocidal partner. I won't waste time arguing about that with the Brits.

 

[Spitfire9]

Why do you compare the UK to Turkiye? it is Israel's genocidal partner. I won't waste time arguing about that with the Brits.

I have lived in Britain for most of my life. I have seen dozens of anti-Israel demonstrations. I have not seen any pro-Israel demonstrations.

You mention earlier that the 2020 election was fixed. If you are referring to the US presidential elections, not one allegation was upheld when heard in court. IIRC in a lot or all of the cases concerned the lawyers representing the complainants declined going into the court. Again, according to my memory, those lawyers could have been disbarred had they argued in court a vexatious case for which there was no evidence, a case intended to overturn the expressed will of the people in the democratic process.

You say you think the 2020 election was fixed. Evidence, please. Whether I am convinced by it will not be predetermined by my political or religious views.

 

[Spitfire9]

You keep talking about Eurofighter as if Turkiye won't be powerful without it. Turkiye is already militarily more powerful than any European country despite not having your Eurofighter.

It was Turkiye that wanted a more advanced fighter than F-16. F-35 became unavailable. The 2 western fighters with a minimum of US content were Eurofighter and Rafale. Rafale was not worth suggesting. Eurofighter was available fairly quickly, so I suggested it when problems with supply of F-16 arose.

Yes, Turkiye is militarily powerful with or without Eurofighter. If you don't need an aircraft to improve TuAF capability until KAAN is ready, why are you so interested in buying Eurofighter?

 

[ADMusa]

I have lived in Britain for most of my life. I have seen dozens of anti-Israel demonstrations. I have not seen any pro-Israel demonstrations.

You mention earlier that the 2020 election was fixed. If you are referring to the US presidential elections, not one allegation was upheld when heard in court. IIRC in a lot or all of the cases concerned the lawyers representing the complainants declined going into the court. Again, according to my memory, those lawyers could have been disbarred had they argued in court a vexatious case for which there was no evidence, a case intended to overturn the expressed will of the people in the democratic process.

You say you think the 2020 election was fixed. Evidence, please. Whether I am convinced by it will not be predetermined by my political or religious views.

You have to look for clues because evidences would be impossible to find without a thorough and neutral investigation. But this is what I did to come up with my conclusion the election was rigged:
I studied America's voter registration laws and how well these laws were implemented in battleground states prior to 2020.
I estimated the number of non-citizen voting in 2020 alone based on percentages released in a research report even Democrats accept as true.
I studied the ballot production and delivery procedures, looked at EAC's lapses, read congressional research reports, figured out what happened in election offices and voting locations nationwide, and tried to find out how cast ballots can be traced back to a party - not the voter.
I looked at historic reasons US president lost or won elections in the past, since 1972.
I profiled the typical Democrat and Republican voters and used their profiles to calculate the likely votes in contested counties.
I studied the contagion of sentiments in neighbouring counties and looked for "winning" trends among low population counties in battleground states. discovered something very unusual. Trump won in low-population counties but lost in a handful of high population counties that decided where a state's electoral votes go. This is against the principle of sentiment contagion.
I looked at background circumstances that might have influenced the Democrats to rig and discovered why they did it.

DEMOCRATS RIGGED FOR NATIONAL SECURITY REASONS. Trump would have started a war with Iran and prevented Russia's invasion of Ukraine, or at the very least, refused to support Ukriane because he would't want Russia to support Iran in a war Trump has already decided WILL happen.

 

[Spitfire9]

You have to look for clues because evidences would be impossible to find without a thorough and neutral investigation. But this is what I did to come up with my conclusion the election was rigged:
I studied America's voter registration laws and how well these laws were implemented in battleground states prior to 2020.
I estimated the number of non-citizen voting in 2020 alone based on percentages released in a research report even Democrats accept as true.
I studied the ballot production and delivery procedures, looked at EAC's lapses, read congressional research reports, figured out what happened in election offices and voting locations nationwide, and tried to find out how cast ballots can be traced back to a party - not the voter.
I looked at historic reasons US president lost or won elections in the past, since 1972.
I profiled the typical Democrat and Republican voters and used their profiles to calculate the likely votes in contested counties.
I studied the contagion of sentiments in neighbouring counties and looked for "winning" trends among low population counties in battleground states. discovered something very unusual. Trump won in low-population counties but lost in a handful of high population counties that decided where a state's electoral votes go. This is against the principle of sentiment contagion.
I looked at background circumstances that might have influenced the Democrats to rig and discovered why they did it.

DEMOCRATS RIGGED FOR NATIONAL SECURITY REASONS. Trump would have started a war with Iran and prevented Russia's invasion of Ukraine, or at the very least, refused to support Ukriane because he would't want Russia to support Iran in a war Trump has already decided WILL happen.

Interesting to read but evidence to support your allegation is absent. Sorry, giving the methods you used to reach conclusions is not the same as presenting the evidence on which you reached conclusions.

You say 'Trump won in low-population counties but lost in a handful of high population counties that decided where a state's electoral votes go.'

I don't see anything unusual about that. If Trump lost in critical battleground states and so lost the election in the 'electoral college', the result abided with the rules of the US voting system. It may be you did not like the outcome of the election but that is not a valid reason to argue that the election was invalid.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I do believe that Imamoglu's arrest is politically motivated. But I can hardly blame Erdogan. The West has been supporting Turkiye's opposition against Erdogan for many years now.

This shows you don’t know what is going on in Turkey. And your second sentence totally contradicts your take on Democracy.
Support of opposition by the West is in your mind. There is no evidence of that.

Democracy only flourishes in anti-Muslim countries. If Europe is sincere about democracy, why does it not sanction Egypt, Tunisia, and Pakistan? Oh, these aren't human beings? Look, we aren't fools, okay. Muslims are wide awake now and will not be manipulated with deomcracy like was the case in the past. All the wars happening in Syria, Somalia, Libya, and Sudan are sponsored by Europe and America to weaken Islamic governments in these countries. Democracy isn't what they want. Anti-Islamic regimes is what they are striving to install via all these civil wars and color revolutions. At least, Erdogan was elected to power. What about Europe's darling boys in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt, Tunisia, and Jordan to list but a few? Why don't we hear a single complaint from Europe about human rights violations in these countries - including Sisi the butcher who carried out the largest massacre of peaceful protesters in a single day in recent history? Don't lecture any Muslim country about democry.

If you are writing this as a reply to my post, I am sorry to say that it means nothing as it does not relate to what I have written. Turkey is not a third world country. It is trying and aspiring to enter the EU and the elite class of Democracies. What has been transpiring recently is not analogous with such a democracy.
You have no right to tell me not to lecture. This is a free forum and anyone can write what they believe in as long as it is within forum rules. You have now earned two warning points for telling an administrator to not give his opinion.
If I were you I would tone down my posts.

 

[ADMusa]

It was Turkiye that wanted a more advanced fighter than F-16. F-35 became unavailable. The 2 western fighters with a minimum of US content were Eurofighter and Rafale. Rafale was not worth suggesting. Eurofighter was available fairly quickly, so I suggested it when problems with supply of F-16 arose.

Yes, Turkiye is militarily powerful with or without Eurofighter. If you don't need an aircraft to improve TuAF capability until KAAN is ready, why are you so interested in buying Eurofighter?

"so interested?". This is just a stop-gap measure. As far as military and security goes, the EU needs Turkiye more than the other way round.

 

[Spitfire9]

"so interested?". This is just a stop-gap measure. As far as military and security goes, the EU needs Turkiye more than the other way round.

If Turkiye needs a fighter until KAAN arrives, that would be why it is a little bit interested/interested/so interested in Eurofighter. The EU may need Turkiye more than Turkiye needs the EU as far as military and security goes. What has that got to do with how locking up your opponents, locking up journalists etc affects the supply of arms needed by Turkiye to Turkiye?

PS Erdogan's actions are making it less likely that he will get the cooperation of the EU or the UK. Turkey could do with a non-CAATSA fighter. The only ones available from Europe are Eurofighter and Rafale.

 

[ADMusa]

This shows you don’t know what is going on in Turkey. And your second sentence totally contradicts your take on Democracy.
Support of opposition by the West is in your mind. There is no evidence of that.

I'll repeat here that I believe Ekrem Imamoglu's arrest is politically motivated considering how other Turkish politicians got away with bigger crimes that what he's accused of. I studied his cases in significant detail. I definitely know the political struggles playing out in Turkiye and why. There's no country I research in this world like Turkiye. My interest isn't Turkish food or music, culture, etc. My focus is strictly on the past and present battles between Islam and secularism in Turkiye, and I've learned enough to know the whats and whys of serious political events.
What's my take on democracy? I say democracy is a tool the West uses to attempt to control other governments. Democracy is only useful when it serves Western interests. No European country is striving for democracy in the Arab world because it'll bring Islamists to power. Dictators and despots are far better at protecting Western interests (which is to keep the Muslim world weak and divided). That's why America tried to install Haftar in Libya and Turkiye stopped them. They tried in Syria and Turkiye stopped them. They also tried in Somalia and Turkiye stopped them. Now they are trying in Sudan because Sudan is VERY close to Macca and Madina - two cities that if Turkiye could control, no Western sanction can break the Turkish Lira. Muslims would buy the Lira from allover the world, making it impossible to break via economic wars.

My friend, you are talking with someone who has a deep understanding of geopolitics. I have a blog on this subject. and majority of my predictions come true. People spend over 20 minutes reading the 1500-word geopolitical articles I write due to the rich and mostly correct perspectives I present. I call a spade a spade. I don't hide the truth to support my side. That's not the quality of a true Muslim.

With Imamoglu's arrest, I already understand what Erdogan is trying to achieve. The last remaining threat to Islamist AKP is the CHP and a few of its politicians. Severely weaken this party and its most popular politicians and you've effectively defeated secularism in Turkiey. This is why there's so much public anger among CHP supporters at Imamoglu's arrest. Erdogan isn't going to rule past May 2028. He wants to make sure the AKP doesn't lose to secular politicians after he leaves. There's simply too much at stake, especially in the Muslim world. If Imamoglu remains behind bars or is disqualified for running as president, the AKP will most likely win the presidency again in 2028.

You say there's no evidence the West supporsts the oppositon in Turkiye? You are the guy sounding like you don't know what's happening in Turkiye. If you follow the news closesly, you'll notice CHP politicians nudging Europe and America for support. Imamoglu himself criticized Britain for its silence. There has been an official US project to support the opposition in Turkiye since at least 2020. You can read about it here: https://turkishdemocracy.com/about-us/ Joe Biden openly talked about supporting the Turkish opposition against autocratic Erdogan. There are many other examples, I can give you. How can you say no evidence exist? In fact, Turkiye's economy and currency was attacked to support the opposition.

If you are writing this as a reply to my post, I am sorry to say that it means nothing as it does not relate to what I have written. Turkey is not a third world country. It is trying and aspiring to enter the EU and the elite class of Democracies. What has been transpiring recently is not analogous with such a democracy.
You have no right to tell me not to lecture. This is a free forum and anyone can write what they believe in as long as it is within forum rules. You have now earned two warning points for telling an administrator to not give his opinion.
If I were you I would tone down my posts.

I know this isn't a Muslim-friendly forum. Sooner or later, some people may look for an excuse to ban me because of the implications of what I write. Read my previous reply to your post again. From the overall context, you'll discover that it didn't refer to you as an individual. It refers to Europe. I said that because you keep comparing Turkiye to Europe and claiming Europe is better at upholding human rights - a claim so outrageously false as to warrant a tough response. You seem to comment in support of Europe.

It's you who may be trying to prevent me from commenting here. When I say "don't lecture Muslim countries about democracy", I don't mean you should stop commenting. I mean Europe does not have the moral high ground to do so considering what they say or do about similar problems in other countries. I know you are an administrator, but that won't deter me from replying to your comments I disagree with. I know the forum rules, and I haven't violated any. You almost certainly misunderstood my previous reply. Hopefully, you don't misunderstand this one. And yes, I know the forum rules and have NOT violated any since I resumed commenting here.