India helping Nawaz in 'attempts to weaken army', says PM Imran

[Nilgiri]

If Pakistan was seven times larger, seven times greater reach, seven times more influence I suspect we could get dozen countries to "connect dots".

Well I'm enquiring why not start with China? Actually it should have been accomplished with China...given the level of friendship you have right?

CPEC and all, higher than mountains, deeper than seas....even nuclear proliferation cooperation.....surely support from China can be mustered vis-a-vis purported Indian terrorism?

So if you can't get it with them, either the proof you have stinks and wont hold up to any actual scrutiny by more eyes (hence Chinese reluctance to front on it).....or you don't care about it enough. Either way, doubt being 7 times larger changes those things....as they would clearly fly right now with what you got with China right now.

 

[Kaptaan]

CPEC and all, higher than mountains, deeper than seas....even nuclear proliferation cooperation.....surely support from China can be mustered vis-a-vis purported Indian terrorism?

You keep singing the Chinese song. Seeing that you place so much store on them would you be prepared to give them credibility over matters where they do support or validate Pakistan's stance? If as I suspect you don't then this "Chinese thing" is just a red herring.

And it's not like India has never supported terrorists. Do you really want me to fish for the Indian involement in supporting, nurturing Tamil Tigers only retracting when they went Frankenstien monster on India with Rajiv recieving a exist visa from their deadly female kiss.

 

[Rajendra Chola]

You keep singing the Chinese song. Seeing that you place so much store on them would you be prepared to give them credibility over matters where they do support or validate Pakistan's stance? If as I suspect you don't then this "Chinese thing" is just a red herring.

And it's not like India has never supported terrorists. Do you really want me to fish for the Indian involement in supporting, nurturing Tamil Tigers only retracting when they went Frankenstien monster on India with Rajiv recieving a exist visa from their deadly female kiss.

And thus we learnt our lesson. While we or anyone cannot vouch for PM Modi as less aggressive, you and we had Dr MMS, a peacenik for 10 years as PM (and ABV before that) who sincerely believed peace is possible. Pakistan was unable to achieve peace even with MMS at the helm. I for one don't believe MMS would have ordered anything that would have involved in civilian casualties. Raw only reports to the PM. The fault is not with India for not trying. Political issues needs to be sit down and discussed. Branding anyone as Indian agent in Pakistan is quite easy and fun.

I know you didn't quote me, but still...

 

[Kaptaan]

Branding anyone as Indian agent in Pakistan is quite easy and fun.

And the same applies to India. Where even eating beef will attract the charge "Pakistani".

And thus we learnt our lesson.

Thank you for owning up India's role as purveyor of terrorism. Glad you guys learn't the lesson and cross your heart yeh never have done it since [said with hint of sarcasm]. I understand we have also learn't the lesson. Cross our hearts.

. I for one don't believe MMS would have ordered anything that would have involved in civilian casualties. Raw only reports to the PM.

You are really naive if you think intel agencies reveal everything and do everything according to what the incumbent sat in high office says. Even British intel have 'strayed' from political leash in Ireland where they are cases where they helped UVF to plant bombs in Dublin.

Elements of the British Army also colluded with illegal loyalist paramilitaries ... Some were shot from behind or while trying to help the wounded. ... Attacks attributed to the group include the Dublin and Monaghan bombings ...

Operation Banner - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nilgiri]

You keep singing the Chinese song. Seeing that you place so much store on them would you be prepared to give them credibility over matters where they do support or validate Pakistan's stance? If as I suspect you don't then this "Chinese thing" is just a red herring.

I'm just saying if there is damning evidence and/or you cared about it, you would have easily convinced at least one other country by now, especially if its a friend.

You have not, ergo, its not the situation.

How reliable and credible that friend is on the matter is another subject....but you haven't even gotten first base here....that says it all about the "evidence".

Certainly nothing like the Mumbai Attacks where we have Kasab and co's family members picked up for media interviews....and plenty of direct SIGINT captured originating clearly from a country and presented to all interested global peers that wanted the evidence.....especially any agents located in their countries (to squeeze for further testimony on the planning and evidence chain).

And it's not like India has never supported terrorists. Do you really want me to fish for the Indian involement in supporting, nurturing Tamil Tigers only retracting when they went Frankenstien monster on India with Rajiv recieving a exist visa from their deadly female kiss.

The point is freedom fighters and terrorists often have a fine line dont they, often from point of view and that can change over time...especially when clear targetting of civilians occur and the "frankenstein" moment commences as you say.

But tell me how the mumbai attackers were ANY notion of a freedom fighter....explain me ANY point of view where they can be?

Were they from Bombay to begin with? How did they get there to do what they did? Where did the information and training for it come? What was their stated purpose....the liberation of Bombay?

You see the yahya-ists in real power in your land dont learn from their namesake. Deliberate targetting of civilians (with absolutely no sight of a liberation goal as that would be actioned towards people with arms in the area perpetrating a claimed subjugation) only brings consequences on yourself.

Either losing half your nation or getting suffocated as long as needed economically. The consequence is all a matter of scale in the end.

Yes it can be a ex-PM assassination too for the frankenstein flip given the inertia in play even long after cutting off support (and even fighting it directly) when the frankenstein made it is most certainly not what it started out as.

But the consequences for Mumbai are just getting started....its going to be many billions of dollars and plenty of misery on your people till they take action on the Yahya-ists secure in their mansions plotting and scheming with no accountability....constantly smarting from that aforementioned entire wing-loss humiliation...and all the denial of the mass murder their lot directed that involves too.

They can't learn a lesson themselves by plain logic, so it will have to be plain brutal pressure.

 

[Rajendra Chola]

And the same applies to India. Where even eating beef will attract the charge "Pakistani".


Thank you for owning up India's role as purveyor of terrorism. Glad you guys learn't the lesson and cross your heart yeh never have done it since [said with hint of sarcasm]. I understand we have also learn't the lesson. Cross our hearts.


You are really naive if you think intel agencies reveal everything and do everything according to what the incumbent sat in high office says. Even British intel have 'strayed' from political leash in Ireland where they are cases where they helped UVF to plant bombs in Dublin.

Elements of the British Army also colluded with illegal loyalist paramilitaries ... Some were shot from behind or while trying to help the wounded. ... Attacks attributed to the group include the Dublin and Monaghan bombings ...

Operation Banner - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

ISI maybe have the tradition of not reporting to PM unofficially. Or else it would have prevented coups everytime in Pakistan. Guess who it's boss is? Raw on the other hand is headed by civilians. Yes civilians from Indian Police services. To keep them on a leash. (Though personally I believe they should be lead by military minds).

The world doesn't revolve around how MI6 or isi works.

The 26/11 and the Rajiv assassination is totally different issue. Just like you folks support Rohingyas, we supported Tamils in SL uprooted from their homelands. Only if Indira was alive 5 more years, we would have a new country in SA.
The fine print is not an iota of evidences has been provided or money trail that will stand in UNSC , FATF or ICJ. Even on Kulbushan Jadhav it's entirely possible that he has been abducted from Iran. 26/11 has been sitting on evidences in India, US and Pakistan. Guess which country hasn't taken action on it? And which country suffered the most for encouraging people in the name of religion who did 26/11 and those who did many in Pakistan. The Monster my friend is inside.

 

[Saiyan0321]

i am seeing alot of confusion here on behavior of states as many posts have treated states as individuals. That is not the case. States are not individuals to whom you can 'teach lessons' or 'learned their lesson' or 'favor for a friend'. States are driven by self interest and strategic evaluation. For example if an act backfired then that does not mean the state will not partake in that said act. It will. It may analyze why it backfired? or reasons behind as such but it will undertake all necessary steps for its strategic sphere which is also why we see strategic and intelligence departments to be the most ruthless and coldblooded of the lot.

Coming to acceptance of China on Indian terrorism. One can also argue as to why China doesnt one up India and recognize Pakistan as the sole sovereign authority on Kashmir? wouldnt it be great considering the current situation? recognize Pakistan, have it sign off ladakh or a boundary agreement and then fight India by stating that we are fighting an occupier state? why doesnt China do that especially considering the events that have happened? Because it is not in China's interest to do that. To take a side and it has nothing to do with iron friendship or iron mountains but simply states driven on interests and where they wish to confront or fight conflict and where they wont. Its not even about evidences. Evidence is again individual aspect. States are driven by interests and when their interests are at stake, they will ignore evidences and when it isnt they will pursue evidences.

Case in point is the removal of Pakistan from FATF in 2015 terror financing. Pakistan was placed in it in 2012 and removed in 2015. Does that mean that there was no evidence or was Pakistan adequately punished or was it removed as it was acquitted from terror financing? why? Is there suddenly more incriminating evidence on surface to ask for reopening of case? NO to all. State relations are different from Individuals as we see it. In 2015 Pakistan was not just removed because it had taken initiatives against financing but largely because it had promised to bring Taliban to the table and create for a better and more secure aspect for US interest. Where was mumbai bombing damning evidence then? was it not present? was it so flimsy that Pakistan was able to escape the so called 'Punishment' that would bring 'Untold Misery' on Pakistan? Sorry but this does not make sense. FATF is not just terror financing but money laundering and financial crimes as well which is why we find many nations like Iceland on the blacklist as well and alot of issues with FATF with Pakistan is with money laundering and the fact that it has inadequate money laundering financial controls. Dramatics are great but that is what they are dramatics.

As for evidence value to incriminate India to terrorism. Again the world is not a court of law and states are not individuals as friends but run by their own interest. China doesnt need our help to declare India as a terror financer however doing so is against Chinese interest just as it is against their interest to declare Kashmir as Pakistan's Sovereign territory. What amount of evidence Pakistan has gathered has no relation to it at all. Considering the way the two nations are, India can literally say they support open terrorism in Pakistan and the world wont care. India has been involved in many terror groups in Pakistan. The two states have actively tried to subvert each other and We can go back in time saying who started what first but frankly it is a moot point. All of it is. India supports subversion in Pakistan through various groups however that is what India will do no matter what. After all that is the job of India's strategic center to keep the enemy marred in internal conflict. It is the duty of the state and its citizens to make sure that no such situation rises nor gains power where such subversion can be used by foreign elements. Now many confuse support with creation. No creation of subversion is something that is not possible and if it is then it is not easy. Support of subversion is what most groups do and that is far more effective and cheaper than creation of subversion. Case in point. The rise of ISIS in the region. ISIS formed from a defeated and cash starved TTP became as such to gain some semblance of support from the ISIS center in middle east and it did but its major support came from NDS which supplied and nurtured it to become an effective hand against the Taliban and while the former certainly got a bloody nose in nangahar and kunar, the latter survived thanks to the massive hatred for religious extremism and effective intelligence network. That is not to say that attacks didnt happen. They did but those attacks could never become 20% of what the TTP was and as we saw that through that support ISIS became a great enemy against Taliban and Afghanistan so why did it bite the handles? You see when you support or even create such a group, you control only a select few and the footsoldiers and many in command desire action and to make sure the group doesnt fall apart or become home to infighting, the commanders often either get swept away from the calls and bite the hand that feeds or they will allow for a few attacks to lower the temperatures.


Lastly this punishing countries and untold misery is devoid of logic since that is not how states work. It is how individuals work and not state. As for Yahya-ists well Calling them Yahya-ists is wrong. Yahya brought the most fair election in Pakistan history in 1970 and wanted to create a constitution which will run the country. If he wanted to secure power then the very constitution that he threw into the bin 1962 one, was the key to that power and if he wanted to rule the country then the one unit was the key for that. calling the military yahya-ists is again devoid of logic and is a reminder of how a country really needs to get out of the 1971 mindset

 

[VCheng]

Like I said, get at least one other country to connect the dots to final terrorism like Pakistan only seems to have done.

This is important so you dont come off the equivalent of a muttering crazy person (i.e you need to convince other people of what you know!...not just yourselves)

China and India are at low ebb of relations, should be a cakewalk right to get at least them on board right?

The proof must clearly be damning after all.

Please do keep in mind that MQM is just another of the "gifts" to the nation by the military. It was created by the dictator Gen Zia ul Haq as a way to check PPP in Sind. The rest, as they say, is history.

 

[Saiyan0321]

Please do keep in mind that MQM is just another of the "gifts" to the nation by the military. It was created by the dictator Gen Zia ul Haq as a way to check PPP in Sind. The rest, as they say, is history.

Nevertheless the Muhajir as a group, were very much seeing the discrimination of Sindh and this has been again an argument on who is to blame? Who started it first? however considering how things were, Muhajirs would have formed a nationalist party eventually which would have formed an armed wing to counter the many armed wings of Sindhi nationalists. Lets not forget that by 1974, there were PPP armed wings and Sindhi nationalist wings and Wadera tribal militias as well and all these wings were brutal. I am not saying that Muhajirs are good in this story. What i am saying is that a nationalist armed party in Sindh based on the affiliation of Muhajir was irrespective. Army again supported this. Not created this. It helped them morph into the monster it became and it helped them raise influence which would have taken them decades. Such is the end result of no assimilation. Again not saying who is right or wrong but stating that this is who it ends

 

[VCheng]

Nevertheless the Muhajir as a group, were very much seeing the discrimination of Sindh and this has been again an argument on who is to blame? Who started it first? however considering how things were, Muhajirs would have formed a nationalist party eventually which would have formed an armed wing to counter the many armed wings of Sindhi nationalists. Lets not forget that by 1974, there were PPP armed wings and Sindhi nationalist wings and Wadera tribal militias as well and all these wings were brutal. I am not saying that Muhajirs are good in this story. What i am saying is that a nationalist armed party in Sindh based on the affiliation of Muhajir was irrespective. Army again supported this. Not created this. It helped them morph into the monster it became and it helped them raise influence which would have taken them decades.

You may be right that such a militant party could have been created due to the factors you mentioned, but the monster it became was all the military's doing, to serve its own purposes. And like most thing of a similar ilk, it created more problems in the long run than it solved.

 

[Saiyan0321]

You may be right that such a militant party could have been created due to the factors you mentioned, but the monster it became was all the military's doing, to serve its own purposes. And like most thing of a similar ilk, it created more problems in the long run than it solved.

Monsters are created as such. Support makes them the monster that believes itself too powerful to be a mere puppet and fight for their own influence. Frankly groups that have any political ore religious affiliation i.e Social links will eventually become that monster. Its like a matchstick. its great when the flame it at the tip. You can use it to your ends and it doesnt bite back. You can wave and the flame will die out and you have complete control but slowly the flame grows on the stick and eventually reaches your hand and burns you in best case scenario or light you on fire in worst case scenario. This is what happens. ISIS is a great example. When it became too powerful with its own support base and economy and influence, it immediately started fighting with all its handlers

 

[VCheng]

Monsters are created as such. Support makes them the monster that believes itself too powerful to be a mere puppet and fight for their own influence. Frankly groups that have any political ore religious affiliation i.e Social links will eventually become that monster. Its like a matchstick. its great when the flame it at the tip. You can use it to your ends and it doesnt bite back. You can wave and the flame will die out and you have complete control but slowly the flame grows on the stick and eventually reaches your hand and burns you in best case scenario or light you on fire in worst case scenario. This is what happens. ISIS is a great example. When it became too powerful with its own support base and economy and influence, it immediately started fighting with all its handlers

For your analogy to apply, consider that the said matchstick was lit by the military to light its own cigar, and then handed off the the lackey nation to suffer the consequences as you have described them.

 

[Saiyan0321]

For your analogy to apply, consider that the said matchstick was lit by the military to light its own cigar, and then handed off the the lackey nation to suffer the consequences as you have described them.

Nobody likes a movie title that is too long nor an analogy that is too detailed and while the handlers may get off free, i am gonna add the soldiers that die out their as the fingers that get burned.

 

[Nilgiri]

Please do keep in mind that MQM is just another of the "gifts" to the nation by the military. It was created by the dictator Gen Zia ul Haq as a way to check PPP in Sind. The rest, as they say, is history.

I am aware, pretty much all the party legacies originate or have had considerable intrinsic dalliance with the core metastasized presence.

My focus no longer really is held by the political parties in Pakistan...it has shifted fully to the real power....because that is where the consequential decisions are made...and then maybe laundered through the political circus rubber stamping as needed.

Till that is changed fundamentally, I see no real hope for Pakistan....it is just going to continue circling for just a few people's benefit.

 

[Saiyan0321]

Till that is changed fundamentally, I see no real hope for Pakistan....it is just going to continue circling for just a few people's benefit.

The army is neither as strong as it is made out to be nor as weak as it is made out to be. The problem is not just the army. There is an implemented system, a pure wheel that benefits a select group of individuals and they are not just the army. They are each and everybody that has any form of power. Even my field of law has this system where those that dont toe the line or get in line are either crushed or thrown aside or as @VCheng stated leave. As days go by, the wheel is becoming stronger and stronger and let me tell you something very clearly. Anybody of this wheel that tries to destroy this systematic wheel is crushed immediately and it is irrespective who it is. You can remove the army and Pakistan wont change at all. So your terms of 'No Hope' is actually very small scale to the mammoth that is 'No Hope' in Pakistan. Until this wheel exists Pakistan will not have any hope and this wheel cant be broken. It is run by all of us. We sustain its existence

 

[VCheng]

Till that is changed fundamentally, I see no real hope for Pakistan....it is just going to continue circling for just a few people's benefit.

As I have often said, there is no need nor desire to make any substantial changes. The systems works perfectly to deliver the results it is designed to achieve.

 

[VCheng]

The army is neither as strong as it is made out to be nor as weak as it is made out to be. The problem is not just the army. There is an implemented system, a pure wheel that benefits a select group of individuals and they are not just the army. They are each and everybody that has any form of power. Even my field of law has this system where those that dont toe the line or get in line are either crushed or thrown aside or as @VCheng stated leave. As days go by, the wheel is becoming stronger and stronger and let me tell you something very clearly. Anybody of this wheel that tries to destroy this systematic wheel is crushed immediately and it is irrespective who it is. You can remove the army and Pakistan wont change at all. So your terms of 'No Hope' is actually very small scale to the mammoth that is 'No Hope' in Pakistan. Until this wheel exists Pakistan will not have any hope and this wheel cant be broken. It is run by all of us. We sustain its existence

Please see the reply above.

 

[Saiyan0321]

As I have often said, there is no need nor desire to make any substantial changes. The systems works perfectly to deliver the results it is designed to achieve.

Obviously. It serves everybody and the people neither care nor have the guts to bring such a change. Lets take my field for example. There is not struggle to bring change nor to change the very prevailing system like a junior must worship his senior no matter what and his value is of a slave for a minimum period of ten years for which he gets neither wage and he must never ever ever contradict his senior no matter what otherwise the system in place will crush him. If he thinks to change seniors then the system will crush him again or atleast ostracize him. This is a very ground to level example of a system that is neither condemned nor hated not fought against and those that do simply leave the field or the country or become one with it. I know many lawyers and many examples whose hopes and hearts were crushed and these extremely talented bunch left. The system in Pakistan works because of its reach. Its web is so strong that it has entrapped the entire country and at the people are also part of keeping it running with the hope that the system will benefit them as well. These are roots of that larger system and it is everywhere and yes it works perfectly to deliver the results. So take out the army and expect no change. Take out the courts and expect no change. Kill every single politician and expect no change. The system remains. It will survive everything.

 

[Saiyan0321]

The systems works perfectly to deliver the results it is designed to achieve.

Ofcourse! Talk against the army and you get disappeared. Talk against the courts and contempt of court. Talk against politicians and defamation. Talk against mullah and blasphemy. Talk against landlords and assault. Talk against police and false cases. Talk against bureaucracy and bureaucratic hearings. The system is perfect and they all work together to defend it and each other and only fight when they feel they are being kicked out and the end result is either hopeless exile or being brought back on promise of major beneficiary of the system. All of them may fight one another but never harm to the extent that the system gets damaged. So yes the result is perfect. Imran has learned the lesson very well that some regions will forever remain slaves to systems so better to become part of it and get some power

 

[VCheng]

The system remains. It will survive everything.

... except economic collapse.

Imran has learned the lesson very well that some regions will forever remain slaves to systems so better to become part of it and get some power

... in other words, he is as much of a tool as all those who preceded him in that position.