India India - Pakistan Relations

Indian gir lion

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Still broke away became an independant country.

If Pakistan thought of a Austro-Hungarian like system things would have been different even if Bangladesh broke away in the future 1971 could have been avoided.
Hehehe mate , india would not have e allowed any peaceful solution
They supported insurgency in indian north east since 60s .
Both they and China
Imagine another Pakistan on our eastern side , it would have been a security nightmare for us.
 

Ryder

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Hehehe mate , india would not have e allowed any peaceful solution
They supported insurgency in indian north east since 60s .
Both they and China
Imagine another Pakistan on our eastern side , it would have been a security nightmare for us.

Thats why Pakistan self inflicted it themselves. I doubt India would have stayed Neutral you always intervene when there is an advantage.

Thats why 1971 could have been avoided not only did Pakistan lose Bangladesh they suffered a defeat in the hands of India. 90k pows is pretty bad itself.
 

Indian gir lion

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Thats why Pakistan self inflicted it themselves. I doubt India would have stayed Neutral you always intervene when there is an advantage.

Thats why 1971 could have been avoided not only did Pakistan lose Bangladesh they suffered a defeat in the hands of India. 90k pows is pretty bad itself.
93 000 it is mate
Let me tell you few more things .
Pakistani societies character before 71 was not like today , I mean they were islamists but still quite liberal and somewhat secular.
After 71 though, Pakistani society underwent a massive change.
A new subject called Pakistan studies was added , thousands of madrasas opened and soviet invasion of Afghanistan too led to increase in radicalisaton among them.
General zia ul haq , an Indian whose parents migrated to pakistan was instrumental in this change of character.
The society turned more islamic, more puritanical etc .
Then the next door neighbor called india was public enemy no 1 , they openly proclaimed their new strategy of bleeding india through 1000 cuts ,o know they were and still are agitated and angry.
India sailed through.
They tried their bs in indian state of Punjab, a decade long insurgency ensued indian forces prevailed and since last 30 years punjab is at peace , the militancy in kashmir is also waning down from previous dangerous levels.
Pakistanis just dont have money to do much now , their refineries have closed down for last 3 weeks as their is very less forex available to them .
The islamic character of Pakistan you see today is a 80s creation.
So much so, that in 99 a conflict called kargil war happened .
The Pakistanis ambushed a patrol party led by captain saurabh kalia and his company
They fought till their ammo was exhausted, then they surrendered after all its not a big deal during war time to be taken as a pow .
These fellows were brutally tortured during 30 days of captivity. Cigarette burns all over the body, their penis chopped off , face burned with acid , marks of electrocution. , eardrums punctured etc and finally shot dead

This incident was a water shed moment, any respect indian military had for their pakistani counterparts was evaporated, now there were no limits to actions .
Soon head hunting missions became very common on the line of control. If they came and killed 3 of ours we did same with 6 of theirs .
Keeping their heads ofcourse. The whole affair from 99 till late 2000s was a grim , very grim.
As for captain kalia , the bastards who tortured him and his men , were duly identified and dispatched in the same manner .
People may want peace with them, but not us .
Its not only government hates Pakistan, the general public hates them too much more than government now .
 

Blackbeardsgoldfish

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Still broke away became an independant country.

If Pakistan thought of a Austro-Hungarian like system things would have been different even if Bangladesh broke away in the future 1971 could have been avoided.
The Ausgleich of 1867 didn't come about because it was in the best interest of Austria and Hungary, it came out of an Austrian fear or the empire breaking apart/into civil war. After Prussia gave us a good beating, the Hungarians saw their chance in a renewed attempt at breaking free, which was only averted because of the Habsburg's decision to make them equal to Austrians(something that didn't come lightly).
The Hungarians hadn't forgotten the severe crackdown of 1848, many of those that fought during it still alive and thirsting for revenge. It wasn't as easy as you make it out to be here.

Regarding the implementation of a similar system in West and East Pakistan... I don't think that this would have really been logistically possible with India standing between the two halves, let alone imaginable to the West Pak elite.

The comparison to the AH empire isn't a fitting one here, I think. Especially considering the genocidal acts of the West Pak army in Bangladesh, something that the Austrians, for all their many crimes in the occupied nations during the AH period, can't be said to have done.
 

Ryder

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The Ausgleich of 1867 didn't come about because it was in the best interest of Austria and Hungary, it came out of an Austrian fear or the empire breaking apart/into civil war. After Prussia gave us a good beating, the Hungarians saw their chance in a renewed attempt at breaking free, which was only averted because of the Habsburg's decision to make them equal to Austrians(something that didn't come lightly).
The Hungarians hadn't forgotten the severe crackdown of 1848, many of those that fought during it still alive and thirsting for revenge. It wasn't as easy as you make it out to be here.

Regarding the implementation of a similar system in West and East Pakistan... I don't think that this would have really been logistically possible with India standing between the two halves, let alone imaginable to the West Pak elite.

The comparison to the AH empire isn't a fitting one here, I think. Especially considering the genocidal acts of the West Pak army in Bangladesh, something that the Austrians, for all their many crimes in the occupied nations during the AH period, can't be said to have done.

Humans cant treat their fellow man as equals. Typical!!
 

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My best friend is Pakistani we talked about the Pakistan vs Bangladesh's issue. He talked about his point of view saying Bangladesh broke away because we did stupid mistakes like imposing Urdu and denying their identity. He believed the defeat and losing Bangladesh largely due to Pakistan. He believed it was self inflicted.

Good friend. I have Pakistani friends like that too.

I almost never have issues with Pakistanis who call out mistakes their establishment did....and then I find them more credible when they come after our establishment too for whichever criticism....I listen and debate them genuinely....if such topics are even brought up.

I respect consistency and honesty. Folks like that often become my friends and bros.
 

Nilgiri

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Still broke away became an independant country.

If Pakistan thought of a Austro-Hungarian like system things would have been different even if Bangladesh broke away in the future 1971 could have been avoided.

The issue is what the objective resolution, terrible first gaggle of civilian leadership and early usurpation of power by military dictator did to Pakistan.

Establishment oriented to some kind of quasi-Prussian approach when the state of identities was clearly not ready in recently formed country (whereas prussians knew what German identity was a very long time already).

This is why its so important to get early formation and cohesion so correct, you dont want things too tight or too loose but just right (w.r.t what you have inherited or recently formed with a population).
 

fire starter

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We indeed fulfilled their wish.
images - 2022-06-02T195044.258.jpeg

 

Joe Shearer

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We did, and I am sad about it. There was no need - absolutely no need - for Pakistan to go that extra mile and get the bomb. Having said that, after some preliminary exploration of the situation in a simulation-based war-game, it is abundantly clear that the only guarantee for Pakistan against being overrun by India is the bomb.

Depressing that peace between two nations is based on the ability of the two to destroy each other, irrespective of which of them makes the first fatal move.
 

Jackdaws

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Pak economy is in doldrums. In the face of rising inflation, I am sure the people must be fed up with the powers there.

Should India impose sanctions on companies investing in Pak and force them to leave Pak thereby quickening the meltdown of their economy?

Even a mention of such sanctions would create havoc in their market and currency.

Worth a shot? Or let it continue on its own path?
 

Paro

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Pak economy is in doldrums. In the face of rising inflation, I am sure the people must be fed up with the powers there.

Should India impose sanctions on companies investing in Pak and force them to leave Pak thereby quickening the meltdown of their economy?

Even a mention of such sanctions would create havoc in their market and currency.

Worth a shot? Or let it continue on its own path?
It's an eventuality. It will happen a decade down the line though.

- Unofficial ban on Saab.
- Diplomat avoiding Pak and India visits in a single trip.
- India banning pak education.
 

Nilgiri

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As paro mentions, such things are already being implemented where possible.

Doing it prematurely across the board intensely brings risks to India as well.....as many companies entered Indian economy without these conditions being made to them at the time (or that they will officially come to bear at some juncture in future).

So it will be seen as a kind of retro-active taxation similar in a way to what happened with Vodafone (and the damage that did to Indian economy).

India needs to grow its economy far more and diverge much more than it has from Pakistan to gain more ability here....

Otherwise India economy (which is not in good structured shape) will scare away lot of investors and existing growth.
 

Jackdaws

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As paro mentions, such things are already being implemented where possible.

Doing it prematurely across the board intensely brings risks to India as well.....as many companies entered Indian economy without these conditions being made to them at the time (or that they will officially come to bear at some juncture in future).

So it will be seen as a kind of retro-active taxation similar in a way to what happened with Vodafone (and the damage that did to Indian economy).

India needs to grow its economy far more and diverge much more than it has from Pakistan to gain more ability here....

Otherwise India economy (which is not in good structured shape) will scare away lot of investors and existing growth.
The Arabs did it to Israel at one point and many companies pulled out of Israel. I think this was in the 1970s.
 

Nilgiri

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The Arabs did it to Israel at one point and many companies pulled out of Israel. I think this was in the 1970s.

Well when India has as much critical raw energy per capita available (as the arabs do), it would be different story as to options we long would have pursued.

When the primary resource is human resource (for economic development), the options are far more limited...given the gestation time and investment needed to develop human resource...and the need to not upset the boat from useful providers of this in the interim growth period.

The arab OPEC retaliation (after yom kippur war and airlift US gave to Israel at a critical time) and the BDS boycott movement today are also very different to what you are proposing when you look at the details of what they are.
 

Nilgiri

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Oh he suddenly isn't dead/untraceable anymore.....

Check this out @Jackdaws @Rajaraja Chola et al.


NEW YORK -- Pakistan has arrested the alleged mastermind of the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attacks after years of denying his presence and even claiming he was dead, Nikkei Asia has learned.

The man, Sajid Mir, is on the FBI's list of most-wanted terrorists, with a $5 million reward on his head. He has been sought by both the U.S. and India for over a decade. Mir is connected to Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), a United Nations-designated terrorist organization believed to have been behind the November 2008 siege, when a team of 10 men carried out coordinated attacks on multiple targets. About 170 people were killed -- mainly Indians, alongside six Americans as well as visitors from Japan and elsewhere.

The case appears to have been brought to a head by Pakistan's desire to extricate itself from the Financial Action Task Force's international terror-financing watchlist. Hammad Azhar, Pakistan's former finance minister in the recently ousted government of Prime Minister Imran Khan, and the man in charge of negotiations with the multilateral watchdog for the past three years, confirmed to Nikkei that Pakistan took measures against Mir and other designated terrorists that were "satisfactory" to the FATF. The task force has been keeping Pakistan on its Grey List, used to monitor and isolate noncompliant countries.

Likewise, an FBI official, speaking to Nikkei Asia on the condition of anonymity, said that Mir is "alive, in custody and has been sentenced" in Pakistan.

Another former Pakistani official who is aware of the case said the "Pakistanis have acknowledged to both India and to America that a man called Sajid Mir, who was wanted in connection with the Mumbai attacks, and whom Pakistan had long said was either dead or not locatable ... they have actually found where he is."

According to the FBI, he "allegedly served as the chief planner of the [Mumbai] attacks, directing preparations and reconnaissance, and was one of the Pakistan-based controllers during the attacks." Rumors of Mir's arrest have circulated online but were never verified.

Additionally, the FBI claims Mir conspired to commit a terrorist attack against a newspaper and its employees in Denmark between 2008 and 2009. He was indicted on terrorism charges by a Chicago court in 2011. In December 2021, the U.S. State Department assessed in its Country Reports on Terrorism that "Mumbai attack 'project manager' Sajid Mir... [was] believed to remain free in Pakistan."

Pakistan's response to the Mumbai attacks has been a series of about-turns. In the immediate aftermath, Islamabad rejected all allegations of involvement made by New Delhi. Over several years, investigations, arrests, testimonies and convictions in both India and the U.S. forced Pakistan to take action against Laskhar-e-Taiba, many of whose leaders and cadres are believed to reside in Pakistan. Mir is associated with the organization, according to the FBI.

Still, Pakistan denied Mir's presence in the country, and according to several serving and retired officials, consistently claimed that he was either dead or could not be traced.

Pakistan has still not officially acknowledged Mir's arrest. The deputy foreign minister, Hina Rabbani Khar, told Nikkei Asia that she would not comment on this particular case. Requests for comment to the Pakistani Embassy in Washington went unanswered. There was no response from the Pakistani military spokesperson. Senior police officials and investigators from the Federal Investigation Agency (FIA), Pakistan's version of the FBI, also did not comment on the arrest, but did not deny it.

Pakistan is thought to have changed its position as it sought removal from the FATF anti-terror financing Grey List and after being confronted with actionable intelligence about Mir -- a voice signature gained through monitoring and analysis of the Pakistani communications system. This, along with other details, was shared with Pakistan by an FATF member state, according to a source familiar with the proceedings.

While countries on the FATF Grey List are not sanctioned, it is a step short of the Black List, which does impose penalties, locking countries out of the global financial system. Besides Pakistan, there are 23 countries on the Grey List and two -- Iran and North Korea -- on the Black List.

By finally arresting and prosecuting Mir, as well as other designated terrorists, Pakistan has set itself on a path to leaving the Grey List, while it aims for a broader reset of ties with Washington and New Delhi.

Last week, the FATF announced that Pakistan had fulfilled all its requisite "action items" but would be taken off the watchlist only after a forensic "on site" assessment by members' representatives. Without naming Mir or any other individuals, FATF President Marcus Pleyer told journalists that Pakistan "has demonstrated that it is now pursuing terrorist financing investigations and prosecutions against senior leaders of U.N.-designated terrorist groups."

He also said that "the reforms implemented by Pakistan are good for the stability and security of the country and the region."

Husain Haqqani, Pakistan's former envoy to Washington and currently the director for South and Central Asia at the Hudson Institute in Washington, observed: "It appears that Pakistan has now fully complied with FATF's action items. That probably means that some anti-India jihadi leaders whom Pakistan had previously denied knowledge of have now been located and detained."

Haqqani, who for years has pushed for Pakistan to reform its approach to countering terrorism and extremism, added, "After this, there is no reason why Pakistan should stay on the Grey List."

Azhar, the former finance minister, said that by last year Pakistan had fulfilled the necessary action items and that the majority of the FATF's 39 members voted to take it off the watchlist at an October 2021 plenary. However, an official familiar with the consensus-based proceedings said India and some other members voted to keep Pakistan on the list.

By the next round of FATF meetings, in April 2022, Pakistan had taken further measures to satisfy the organization's members, including additional details about locating and prosecuting Mir and other designated terrorists, according to Azhar. He said Pakistan provided them "more information about tracking him and prosecuting him, along with other U.N.-designated terrorists ... proving that his case had been treated as per law."

Azhar did not comment on Pakistan's previous stance, that Mir was dead or untraceable. However, he did say the information about Mir and other terrorist prosecutions that was demanded by the hitherto dissatisfied FATF members was "provided transparently and to their satisfaction."

The FBI official who confirmed that Mir was in custody told Nikkei that "extradition is next." But Mir's fate is unclear due to the opacity of the Pakistani justice system and its arrangements with its U.S. counterpart.

Mir was originally indicted for terrorism in an American court, not a Pakistani one. However, during the 2000s, around the peak of the "War on Terror," Pakistan arrested and extradited hundreds of suspected terrorists affiliated with outfits such as Al Qaeda to the U.S. military's Guantanamo Bay and other detention facilities, without due process or a formal extradition treaty between the governments. Some of these people were eventually exonerated.

Questions remain over how Mir was tried, or where he would serve his sentence.

Pakistani law allows for preventive detention, permits the death penalty for terrorism offenses and authorizes specialized courts to try terrorism cases, according to the State Department. "A vague and broad definition of terrorism" under Pakistan's Anti-Terrorism Act "essentially provides impunity to police for acts of brutality, custodial torture, false encounters, and unlawful detention," according to the Justice Project Pakistan, a legal rights watchdog.

As for the FATF, it does not publish the submissions and other documentation filed by countries, nor the minutes of plenary meetings. The organization did not respond to Nikkei Asia's requests for comment.

All of this is part of an effort by Islamabad to patch things up with the U.S. and possibly India -- with a focus on stopping the downward spiral of the Pakistani economy. The country wants regional trade, American investment and Washington's support in getting loans from the International Monetary Fund, without which, experts say, a default is likely. A reset of long-chilly ties with the U.S. has begun, but the relationship is far from normal.

"Mistrust often comes quickly but goes away slowly," said Haqqani, the former ambassador. "Pakistani and American diplomats have their work cut out for reestablishing a higher level of trust than existed in the recent past."
 

Jackdaws

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Oh he suddenly isn't dead/untraceable anymore.....

Check this out @Jackdaws @Rajaraja Chola et al.


NEW YORK -- Pakistan has arrested the alleged mastermind of the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attacks after years of denying his presence and even claiming he was dead, Nikkei Asia has learned.

The man, Sajid Mir, is on the FBI's list of most-wanted terrorists, with a $5 million reward on his head. He has been sought by both the U.S. and India for over a decade. Mir is connected to Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), a United Nations-designated terrorist organization believed to have been behind the November 2008 siege, when a team of 10 men carried out coordinated attacks on multiple targets. About 170 people were killed -- mainly Indians, alongside six Americans as well as visitors from Japan and elsewhere.

The case appears to have been brought to a head by Pakistan's desire to extricate itself from the Financial Action Task Force's international terror-financing watchlist. Hammad Azhar, Pakistan's former finance minister in the recently ousted government of Prime Minister Imran Khan, and the man in charge of negotiations with the multilateral watchdog for the past three years, confirmed to Nikkei that Pakistan took measures against Mir and other designated terrorists that were "satisfactory" to the FATF. The task force has been keeping Pakistan on its Grey List, used to monitor and isolate noncompliant countries.

Likewise, an FBI official, speaking to Nikkei Asia on the condition of anonymity, said that Mir is "alive, in custody and has been sentenced" in Pakistan.

Another former Pakistani official who is aware of the case said the "Pakistanis have acknowledged to both India and to America that a man called Sajid Mir, who was wanted in connection with the Mumbai attacks, and whom Pakistan had long said was either dead or not locatable ... they have actually found where he is."

According to the FBI, he "allegedly served as the chief planner of the [Mumbai] attacks, directing preparations and reconnaissance, and was one of the Pakistan-based controllers during the attacks." Rumors of Mir's arrest have circulated online but were never verified.

Additionally, the FBI claims Mir conspired to commit a terrorist attack against a newspaper and its employees in Denmark between 2008 and 2009. He was indicted on terrorism charges by a Chicago court in 2011. In December 2021, the U.S. State Department assessed in its Country Reports on Terrorism that "Mumbai attack 'project manager' Sajid Mir... [was] believed to remain free in Pakistan."

Pakistan's response to the Mumbai attacks has been a series of about-turns. In the immediate aftermath, Islamabad rejected all allegations of involvement made by New Delhi. Over several years, investigations, arrests, testimonies and convictions in both India and the U.S. forced Pakistan to take action against Laskhar-e-Taiba, many of whose leaders and cadres are believed to reside in Pakistan. Mir is associated with the organization, according to the FBI.

Still, Pakistan denied Mir's presence in the country, and according to several serving and retired officials, consistently claimed that he was either dead or could not be traced.

Pakistan has still not officially acknowledged Mir's arrest. The deputy foreign minister, Hina Rabbani Khar, told Nikkei Asia that she would not comment on this particular case. Requests for comment to the Pakistani Embassy in Washington went unanswered. There was no response from the Pakistani military spokesperson. Senior police officials and investigators from the Federal Investigation Agency (FIA), Pakistan's version of the FBI, also did not comment on the arrest, but did not deny it.

Pakistan is thought to have changed its position as it sought removal from the FATF anti-terror financing Grey List and after being confronted with actionable intelligence about Mir -- a voice signature gained through monitoring and analysis of the Pakistani communications system. This, along with other details, was shared with Pakistan by an FATF member state, according to a source familiar with the proceedings.

While countries on the FATF Grey List are not sanctioned, it is a step short of the Black List, which does impose penalties, locking countries out of the global financial system. Besides Pakistan, there are 23 countries on the Grey List and two -- Iran and North Korea -- on the Black List.

By finally arresting and prosecuting Mir, as well as other designated terrorists, Pakistan has set itself on a path to leaving the Grey List, while it aims for a broader reset of ties with Washington and New Delhi.

Last week, the FATF announced that Pakistan had fulfilled all its requisite "action items" but would be taken off the watchlist only after a forensic "on site" assessment by members' representatives. Without naming Mir or any other individuals, FATF President Marcus Pleyer told journalists that Pakistan "has demonstrated that it is now pursuing terrorist financing investigations and prosecutions against senior leaders of U.N.-designated terrorist groups."

He also said that "the reforms implemented by Pakistan are good for the stability and security of the country and the region."

Husain Haqqani, Pakistan's former envoy to Washington and currently the director for South and Central Asia at the Hudson Institute in Washington, observed: "It appears that Pakistan has now fully complied with FATF's action items. That probably means that some anti-India jihadi leaders whom Pakistan had previously denied knowledge of have now been located and detained."

Haqqani, who for years has pushed for Pakistan to reform its approach to countering terrorism and extremism, added, "After this, there is no reason why Pakistan should stay on the Grey List."

Azhar, the former finance minister, said that by last year Pakistan had fulfilled the necessary action items and that the majority of the FATF's 39 members voted to take it off the watchlist at an October 2021 plenary. However, an official familiar with the consensus-based proceedings said India and some other members voted to keep Pakistan on the list.

By the next round of FATF meetings, in April 2022, Pakistan had taken further measures to satisfy the organization's members, including additional details about locating and prosecuting Mir and other designated terrorists, according to Azhar. He said Pakistan provided them "more information about tracking him and prosecuting him, along with other U.N.-designated terrorists ... proving that his case had been treated as per law."

Azhar did not comment on Pakistan's previous stance, that Mir was dead or untraceable. However, he did say the information about Mir and other terrorist prosecutions that was demanded by the hitherto dissatisfied FATF members was "provided transparently and to their satisfaction."

The FBI official who confirmed that Mir was in custody told Nikkei that "extradition is next." But Mir's fate is unclear due to the opacity of the Pakistani justice system and its arrangements with its U.S. counterpart.

Mir was originally indicted for terrorism in an American court, not a Pakistani one. However, during the 2000s, around the peak of the "War on Terror," Pakistan arrested and extradited hundreds of suspected terrorists affiliated with outfits such as Al Qaeda to the U.S. military's Guantanamo Bay and other detention facilities, without due process or a formal extradition treaty between the governments. Some of these people were eventually exonerated.

Questions remain over how Mir was tried, or where he would serve his sentence.

Pakistani law allows for preventive detention, permits the death penalty for terrorism offenses and authorizes specialized courts to try terrorism cases, according to the State Department. "A vague and broad definition of terrorism" under Pakistan's Anti-Terrorism Act "essentially provides impunity to police for acts of brutality, custodial torture, false encounters, and unlawful detention," according to the Justice Project Pakistan, a legal rights watchdog.

As for the FATF, it does not publish the submissions and other documentation filed by countries, nor the minutes of plenary meetings. The organization did not respond to Nikkei Asia's requests for comment.

All of this is part of an effort by Islamabad to patch things up with the U.S. and possibly India -- with a focus on stopping the downward spiral of the Pakistani economy. The country wants regional trade, American investment and Washington's support in getting loans from the International Monetary Fund, without which, experts say, a default is likely. A reset of long-chilly ties with the U.S. has begun, but the relationship is far from normal.

"Mistrust often comes quickly but goes away slowly," said Haqqani, the former ambassador. "Pakistani and American diplomats have their work cut out for reestablishing a higher level of trust than existed in the recent past."
FATF and bankruptcy can make the dead alive I guess.
 

Jackdaws

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All said and done, the Pakistanis seem to still believe that 26/11 was an inside Indian job despite their own Govt acknowledging that the terrorists were Pakistanis.

You can't cure stupidity
 

Rajendra Chola

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Oh he suddenly isn't dead/untraceable anymore.....

Check this out @Jackdaws @Rajaraja Chola et al.


NEW YORK -- Pakistan has arrested the alleged mastermind of the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attacks after years of denying his presence and even claiming he was dead, Nikkei Asia has learned.

The man, Sajid Mir, is on the FBI's list of most-wanted terrorists, with a $5 million reward on his head. He has been sought by both the U.S. and India for over a decade. Mir is connected to Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), a United Nations-designated terrorist organization believed to have been behind the November 2008 siege, when a team of 10 men carried out coordinated attacks on multiple targets. About 170 people were killed -- mainly Indians, alongside six Americans as well as visitors from Japan and elsewhere.

The case appears to have been brought to a head by Pakistan's desire to extricate itself from the Financial Action Task Force's international terror-financing watchlist. Hammad Azhar, Pakistan's former finance minister in the recently ousted government of Prime Minister Imran Khan, and the man in charge of negotiations with the multilateral watchdog for the past three years, confirmed to Nikkei that Pakistan took measures against Mir and other designated terrorists that were "satisfactory" to the FATF. The task force has been keeping Pakistan on its Grey List, used to monitor and isolate noncompliant countries.

Likewise, an FBI official, speaking to Nikkei Asia on the condition of anonymity, said that Mir is "alive, in custody and has been sentenced" in Pakistan.

Another former Pakistani official who is aware of the case said the "Pakistanis have acknowledged to both India and to America that a man called Sajid Mir, who was wanted in connection with the Mumbai attacks, and whom Pakistan had long said was either dead or not locatable ... they have actually found where he is."

According to the FBI, he "allegedly served as the chief planner of the [Mumbai] attacks, directing preparations and reconnaissance, and was one of the Pakistan-based controllers during the attacks." Rumors of Mir's arrest have circulated online but were never verified.

Additionally, the FBI claims Mir conspired to commit a terrorist attack against a newspaper and its employees in Denmark between 2008 and 2009. He was indicted on terrorism charges by a Chicago court in 2011. In December 2021, the U.S. State Department assessed in its Country Reports on Terrorism that "Mumbai attack 'project manager' Sajid Mir... [was] believed to remain free in Pakistan."

Pakistan's response to the Mumbai attacks has been a series of about-turns. In the immediate aftermath, Islamabad rejected all allegations of involvement made by New Delhi. Over several years, investigations, arrests, testimonies and convictions in both India and the U.S. forced Pakistan to take action against Laskhar-e-Taiba, many of whose leaders and cadres are believed to reside in Pakistan. Mir is associated with the organization, according to the FBI.

Still, Pakistan denied Mir's presence in the country, and according to several serving and retired officials, consistently claimed that he was either dead or could not be traced.

Pakistan has still not officially acknowledged Mir's arrest. The deputy foreign minister, Hina Rabbani Khar, told Nikkei Asia that she would not comment on this particular case. Requests for comment to the Pakistani Embassy in Washington went unanswered. There was no response from the Pakistani military spokesperson. Senior police officials and investigators from the Federal Investigation Agency (FIA), Pakistan's version of the FBI, also did not comment on the arrest, but did not deny it.

Pakistan is thought to have changed its position as it sought removal from the FATF anti-terror financing Grey List and after being confronted with actionable intelligence about Mir -- a voice signature gained through monitoring and analysis of the Pakistani communications system. This, along with other details, was shared with Pakistan by an FATF member state, according to a source familiar with the proceedings.

While countries on the FATF Grey List are not sanctioned, it is a step short of the Black List, which does impose penalties, locking countries out of the global financial system. Besides Pakistan, there are 23 countries on the Grey List and two -- Iran and North Korea -- on the Black List.

By finally arresting and prosecuting Mir, as well as other designated terrorists, Pakistan has set itself on a path to leaving the Grey List, while it aims for a broader reset of ties with Washington and New Delhi.

Last week, the FATF announced that Pakistan had fulfilled all its requisite "action items" but would be taken off the watchlist only after a forensic "on site" assessment by members' representatives. Without naming Mir or any other individuals, FATF President Marcus Pleyer told journalists that Pakistan "has demonstrated that it is now pursuing terrorist financing investigations and prosecutions against senior leaders of U.N.-designated terrorist groups."

He also said that "the reforms implemented by Pakistan are good for the stability and security of the country and the region."

Husain Haqqani, Pakistan's former envoy to Washington and currently the director for South and Central Asia at the Hudson Institute in Washington, observed: "It appears that Pakistan has now fully complied with FATF's action items. That probably means that some anti-India jihadi leaders whom Pakistan had previously denied knowledge of have now been located and detained."

Haqqani, who for years has pushed for Pakistan to reform its approach to countering terrorism and extremism, added, "After this, there is no reason why Pakistan should stay on the Grey List."

Azhar, the former finance minister, said that by last year Pakistan had fulfilled the necessary action items and that the majority of the FATF's 39 members voted to take it off the watchlist at an October 2021 plenary. However, an official familiar with the consensus-based proceedings said India and some other members voted to keep Pakistan on the list.

By the next round of FATF meetings, in April 2022, Pakistan had taken further measures to satisfy the organization's members, including additional details about locating and prosecuting Mir and other designated terrorists, according to Azhar. He said Pakistan provided them "more information about tracking him and prosecuting him, along with other U.N.-designated terrorists ... proving that his case had been treated as per law."

Azhar did not comment on Pakistan's previous stance, that Mir was dead or untraceable. However, he did say the information about Mir and other terrorist prosecutions that was demanded by the hitherto dissatisfied FATF members was "provided transparently and to their satisfaction."

The FBI official who confirmed that Mir was in custody told Nikkei that "extradition is next." But Mir's fate is unclear due to the opacity of the Pakistani justice system and its arrangements with its U.S. counterpart.

Mir was originally indicted for terrorism in an American court, not a Pakistani one. However, during the 2000s, around the peak of the "War on Terror," Pakistan arrested and extradited hundreds of suspected terrorists affiliated with outfits such as Al Qaeda to the U.S. military's Guantanamo Bay and other detention facilities, without due process or a formal extradition treaty between the governments. Some of these people were eventually exonerated.

Questions remain over how Mir was tried, or where he would serve his sentence.

Pakistani law allows for preventive detention, permits the death penalty for terrorism offenses and authorizes specialized courts to try terrorism cases, according to the State Department. "A vague and broad definition of terrorism" under Pakistan's Anti-Terrorism Act "essentially provides impunity to police for acts of brutality, custodial torture, false encounters, and unlawful detention," according to the Justice Project Pakistan, a legal rights watchdog.

As for the FATF, it does not publish the submissions and other documentation filed by countries, nor the minutes of plenary meetings. The organization did not respond to Nikkei Asia's requests for comment.

All of this is part of an effort by Islamabad to patch things up with the U.S. and possibly India -- with a focus on stopping the downward spiral of the Pakistani economy. The country wants regional trade, American investment and Washington's support in getting loans from the International Monetary Fund, without which, experts say, a default is likely. A reset of long-chilly ties with the U.S. has begun, but the relationship is far from normal.

"Mistrust often comes quickly but goes away slowly," said Haqqani, the former ambassador. "Pakistani and American diplomats have their work cut out for reestablishing a higher level of trust than existed in the recent past."

One particular reason why Pakistan should be milked to eternity using FATF. They would have eveb given back bin laden if squeezed enough. The world s finally beginning to make stuff work in Pakistan.
I would like IK to come back to power and shamelessly beg US for another phone call from Biden, though I am surprised Pakistan is not even able to convince an person like Joe.
 

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