India India - Pakistan Relations

[suryakiran]

I do not have much clue on these matters (such as "Kashmiri Pandits") or what they involve. These matters had better be dealt with by Pakistani members such as @Kaptaan @Saiyan0321 @Waz and others.

The future is uncertain. We will have to see if your pompous boasts of Indian success of demographic engineering in Kashmir bear fruit in the future and whether Pakistan will be a failure. Let time be the best judge, so to speak.

You fail to realise how small the valley is compared to the rest of the State. We have held on since 1947 to territory we had and expanded into Siachen.

There is no pompous boasts. Only hard facts.

 

[suryakiran]

https://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/front-page-2/33-8-lakh-domicile-certificates-issued-in-jk/

As many as 33.8 lakh domicile certificates have been issued in Jammu and Kashmir till January 25, Lok Sabha was informed on Tuesday.

Union Minister of State for Home G Kishan Reddy also said that since the abrogation of Article 370 and bifurcation of Jammu and Kashmir into Union Territories in August 2019, a total of 58 civilians have lost their lives in 54 militant attacks.

No pattern of selective targeting based on religion can be established, he said in written reply to a question.
“Government of Jammu and Kashmir has reported that up to January 25, 2021, a total of 33,80,234 domicile certificates have been issued in Jammu and Kashmir,” he said.
Reddy said as Jammu and Kashmir is battling the menace of terrorism for last three decades, various measures have been taken to protect the life and property of the people, particularly those belonging to the vulnerable sections.

“This includes overall, as well as specific security arrangements, through appropriate deployment based on intelligence inputs, identification and arrest of supporters of terrorism, proactive operations to seek and arrest and neutralisation of terrorists, intensified night patrolling and checking at ‘Nakas’, etc. Coordination meetings are held regularly and high level of alertness is maintained by the security forces,” he said.

 

[ekemenirtu]

You fail to realise how small the valley is compared to the rest of the State. We have held on since 1947 to territory we had and expanded into Siachen.

There is no pompous boasts. Only hard facts.

Events that are yet to occur are not facts.

While Pakistanis will be busy saving their own country from the debacle and failure of their state due to the constant interference of the Pakistani Army, we will strengthen our position in the Valley.

You talk of the future as if you know it well ahead of time.

Let time be the best judge. We will have to see if your pompous boasts turn out to be true.

 

[ekemenirtu]

Of course the Germans were an excellent fighting force. They occupied all of Western continental Europe. The comparison to Pakistan which has lost all the wars it has ever fought in its history can be seen as flattering. I get your point.

Pakistanis claim they ruled Indians for over 1000 years. The Germans wish they could claim the same about Europe. Unfortunately, after losing two world wars and surrendering unconditionally, they have been deprived of the right to field nuclear weapons. It is not clear yet if Pakistan belongs to that category. From my understanding, it still possesses a functioning nuclear weapons programme and an arsenal of ballistic and cruise missiles able to deliver them to targets within its adversary's territory.

It is observed that the only time Pakistan surrendered unconditionally was in 1971, in Bangladesh. Not even in a war against India but against Bangladesh.

Perhaps you have been reading the wrong sources if you are defending colonialism in Goa. Maybe the Pakistani sources you are referring to liked European colonialism as they enjoyed being ruled. But that's not the case in India or indeed the rest of the post colonial world.

Never did I support or approve of Indian invasion of Goa or Hyderabad or Sikkim or various other independent princely states or regions. Pakistanis claim they are the successors to the various Muslim empires that ruled over Indians and the majority community in India, too, by extension.

To the best of my knowledge and understanding, it is only through connivance with the British imperialists that the majority community in that region change their ruling regime - from the Mughals to the East India Company. It is not clear to me why Pakistanis would favour the latter regime over the former. Evidence for this unsupported theory is also scant, apparently.

The country which has a record of committing terrorism, finds itself in FATF grey list, has committed genocide in East Pakistan and Balochistan (mod: in poster opinion) and which gave refuge to Osama Bin Laden is Pakistan. That's the country I was referring to when I mentioned "regimes known for genocide and terrorism can't be trusted." Just so there is no confusion

You are right that Indians have assisted terrorists in Sri Lanka but also in other neighbouring regions such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sikkim and the like.

It is not clear if a genocide has been commited in Balochistan. Video or photo evidence in the age of personal smart phones for Osama bin Laden's deceased body was also lacking. In this context, more evidence should be a welcome change.

FATF is another of those alphabet-soup organizations created by the USA/lackies to pressure anti-USA regimes, explaining why Iran and North Korea are targeted but no the USA (with its notorious CIA and other associated entities), Zionists/"Israel", the UK (with MI6 and others), Russians (KGB and successors), India (Tamil Tigers/LTTE and others).

FATF is not the UN and does not count all member countries of the UN as its members. That somehow tends to reduce its credibility.

 

[ekemenirtu]

I observe that you may have been thread banned.

If that decision is reversed, I hope you would improve your behaviour in line with moderator instructions and engage productively again.

 

[Jackdaws]

Pakistanis claim they ruled Indians for over 1000 years. The Germans wish they could claim the same about Europe. Unfortunately, after losing two world wars and surrendering unconditionally, they have been deprived of the right to field nuclear weapons. It is not clear yet if Pakistan belongs to that category. From my understanding, it still possesses a functioning nuclear weapons programme and an arsenal of ballistic and cruise missiles able to deliver them to targets within its adversary's territory.

It is observed that the only time Pakistan surrendered unconditionally was in 1971, in Bangladesh. Not even in a war against India but against Bangladesh.





Never did I support or approve of Indian invasion of Goa or Hyderabad or Sikkim or various other independent princely states or regions. Pakistanis claim they are the successors to the various Muslim empires that ruled over Indians and the majority community in India, too, by extension.

To the best of my knowledge and understanding, it is only through connivance with the British imperialists that the majority community in that region change their ruling regime - from the Mughals to the East India Company. It is not clear to me why Pakistanis would favour the latter regime over the former. Evidence for this unsupported theory is also scant, apparently.




You are right that Indians have assisted terrorists in Sri Lanka but also in other neighbouring regions such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sikkim and the like.

It is not clear if a genocide has been commited in Balochistan. Video or photo evidence in the age of personal smart phones for Osama bin Laden's deceased body was also lacking. In this context, more evidence should be a welcome change.

FATF is another of those alphabet-soup organizations created by the USA/lackies to pressure anti-USA regimes, explaining why Iran and North Korea are targeted but no the USA (with its notorious CIA and other associated entities), Zionists/"Israel", the UK (with MI6 and others), Russians (KGB and successors), India (Tamil Tigers/LTTE and others).

FATF is not the UN and does not count all member countries of the UN as its members. That somehow tends to reduce its credibility.

Pakistanis claim they have ruled India for a 1000 years? Lol. Fact is what is present day Pakistan has been ruled by Hindus / Buddhists for 4000 years. After that by Sikhs, Central Asians, Marathas, Brits and post independence by the Americans and now the Chinese as colonies.

Are you now suggesting the war in 1971 was not fought between India and Pak? Please quote your fantastic source. I am very keen to learn about this.

If you wish to defend colonialism, that's your inherent right. From an Indian perspective, European colonialism was wrong both morally and legally.

No has forced Pakistan to be part of FATF. Why don't they leave?

Do you believe Osama wasn't in Pakistan?

 

[suryakiran]

Events that are yet to occur are not facts.



You talk of the future as if you know it well ahead of time.

Let time be the best judge. We will have to see if your pompous boasts turn out to be true.

I just gave you actual numbers on increase in domicile. 33.8 lakh. Hope you understand what domicile is? These are facts. Not opinions or boasts.

 

[suryakiran]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...bs-under-pms-package/articleshow/81551828.cms

NEW DELHI: A total of 3,800 Kashmiri migrants, who were forced to move out of the Valley in the Nineties due to militancy concerns, have returned to Kashmir in the last few years to take up jobs offered to them under the Prime Minister’s package.

44,167 Kashmiri migrant families had to move from the valley since 1990, of which 39, 782 were Hindus. 520 migrant candidates had returned to Kashmir for taking up jobs under the rehabilitation package, since the abrogation of Article 370 in J&K on August 5, 2019, said MoS (Home) G Kishan Reddy in reply to question in the Rajya Sabha.

Another 2,000 migrant candidates are also likely to return under the same policy in the year 2021upon successful completion of the selection process, he added.

The government, said Reddy, has devised policies for return and rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants under the Prime Minister’s packages in 2008 and 2015.

These policies covered incentives for housing to encourage the rehabilitation of Kashmir migrants back at their ancestral places in Valley; and enhancement in cash assistance/cash relief to Kashmiri migrants, from Rs 500 per family in 1990 to Rs 13,000 per family @Rs. 3250 per person.

Out of a total of 6,000 posts announced under PM packages, nearly 3,800 Kashmiri migrants have been rehabilitated directly by way of providing government employment. These employees are working in various districts of Kashmir Valley, which include Srinagar, Budgam, Baramulla, Shopian, Kulgam, Kupwara, Pulwama, Bandipora, Anantnag and Ganderbal. Remaining posts are also at final stages of recruitment, said Reddy.
Transit accommodation is being created to house the 6,000 Kashmiri migrants who are getting employed in the Government of J&K, in the valley.

As many as 6,000 transit accommodation units are being constructed for Kashmiri migrant employees in various districts of Kashmir Valley at an estimated cost of Rs 920 crore. So far, 1,025 dwelling units have already been constructed, the MoS stated in his reply.

 

[Jackdaws]

Full article -

Time to bury the past and move forward: COAS Bajwa on Indo-Pak ties

"Our neighbour will have to create a conducive environment, particularly in occupied Kashmir," army chief says.

www.dawn.com

It is rather bizarre that Pak centers of power expect India to forget that the likes of Hafiz Saeed and Lakhvi are roaming freely in Pak after having orchestrated and executed terror attacks on Indian soil with state sanction, probably even state help.

And what's there to talk on Kashmir except the return of PoK to India? Is Pak willing to discuss the status of PoK?

 

[Raptor]

Peace is welcomed but the hammer should be on Pakistan

 

[Paro]

Basically an invitation for the next terror attack.

 

[Jackdaws]

You would have thought by now they would realized they aren't getting any land.

 

[Nilgiri]

Just economic pressure getting to them and they want some pressure relief valve since CPEC is nowhere close to some bonanza since absolutely no factories are arriving from it....and instead a whole bunch of debt that will need to be paid in actual forex (not inflated PKR).

India should treat this non-seriously....give few muffled noises as required....and continue to do its bit to ensure Pakistan's savings rate stays in the single digits % and no relief comes via any kind of diverse loan options (FATF is just one small part of this).

i.e Keep the current monopoly-cartels (chicoms--->khaki and their mafia distributors) firmly entrenched....they are doing a good job sinking+stagnating the Pakistan economy on this current idle setting.

When they actually move on certain things we have long requested of them, then and only then we will consider step 2 after that. Kashmir dialogue opening is like way past step 10 completion on their side....and it will not be on their terms one bit.

If they want to improve those terms, they can illustrate getting 100 billion in forex first....even 50 will do.

 

[Jackdaws]

Full link

Secret India-Pakistan Peace Plan Brokered By UAE Royals: Report

About 24 hours after military chiefs from India and Pakistan surprised the world last month with a rare joint commitment to respect a 2003 cease-fire agreement, the top diplomat of the United Arab Emirates popped over to New Delhi for a quick one-day visit.

www.ndtv.com

Highlights​

• Ceasefire first step of roadmap for peace between India, Pak: Officials
• Next step involves reinstating envoys in India and Pak, they said
• This will be followed by talks on resuming trade and Kashmir, they added

Obviously we must welcome peace. Although every few years this same process is interrupted either by a Pakistani military misadventure or a Pak terror attack or by a coup in Pakistan.

Why will this time be any different?

 

[Parry Brima]

Full link

Secret India-Pakistan Peace Plan Brokered By UAE Royals: Report

About 24 hours after military chiefs from India and Pakistan surprised the world last month with a rare joint commitment to respect a 2003 cease-fire agreement, the top diplomat of the United Arab Emirates popped over to New Delhi for a quick one-day visit.

www.ndtv.com

Highlights​

• Ceasefire first step of roadmap for peace between India, Pak: Officials
• Next step involves reinstating envoys in India and Pak, they said
• This will be followed by talks on resuming trade and Kashmir, they added

Obviously we must welcome peace. Although every few years this same process is interrupted either by a Pakistani military misadventure or a Pak terror attack or by a coup in Pakistan.

Why will this time be any different?

This is good news. I wonder what would happen to the U.S. vs China situation in South Asia after this.

The article said this peace talk will allow India to focus their military resources for the potential conflict with China. While Pakistan who's facing economy crisis needs this to make a good impression with the U.S. and other powers to save the economy.

So are we going to see the situation where China losing Pakistan as their military/economy allies in South Asia?

 

[Jackdaws]

This is good news. I wonder what would happen to the U.S. vs China situation in South Asia after this.

The article said this peace talk will allow India to focus their military resources for the potential conflict with China. While Pakistan who's facing economy crisis needs this to make a good impression with the U.S. and other powers to save the economy.

So are we going to see the situation where China losing Pakistan as their military/economy allies in South Asia?

As cynical as it sounds, peace talks are usually a Pakistani stalling tactic. They want Kashmir. They can't get it with as many talks as they hold. They can't force a military solution. Talks with Pak are a non starter.

In fact it is better if Pakistan becomes a vassal and economic colony of China. China can then exert enough influence on Pakistan to keep their terror activities restricted.

 

[Nilgiri]

This is good news. I wonder what would happen to the U.S. vs China situation in South Asia after this.

The article said this peace talk will allow India to focus their military resources for the potential conflict with China. While Pakistan who's facing economy crisis needs this to make a good impression with the U.S. and other powers to save the economy.

So are we going to see the situation where China losing Pakistan as their military/economy allies in South Asia?

This is far into the future and needs Pakistan to produce some concrete deliverables to India to show they actually mean business....as opposed to the last 3 years of their drama grandstanding....and last 3 decades of atrocious behaviour on this matter.

Otherwise this will just be filed in the filing room with rest of stuff gathering dust.

The basic thing propelling this from their end is the state of their economy (esp given CPEC is not panning out anywhere near the brochure promise as China simply will not part with its factories unless you can put up the basic money for it).

The average pakistani saving profile (per year) in the current timespan into their own country goes like:

80 USD ---> 70 USD ---> 60 USD

It will very likely hit 50 USD and could drop below even that.

This is about 10 times less per capita than India, for reference.

This is a number that dictates how much investment you get and will get (i.e stuff you need for concrete sustainable economy in 10 year timeframes and more)....it is so vital to everything.

When even the average Pakistani does not trust in their economy/system (where it really matters)..... it is very unlikely any foreign govt would trust the establishment that got them there because of their staunch psychosis.

This is why for Pakistan's history since formation, it has run from one's special privilege arms to anothers rather than actually developing internal sustained resilience and net inertia.

Thus India will need about 10 years of proven + solid action at the very least, before we ease up on the mutual exclusive diktat we are leveraging on foreign investors/creditors/govts ( can invest in India or Pakistan....but not both)...to keep things as difficult for Pakistan as possible (past what they do by their own utter incompetence).

If Pakistan wants to double and triple down on the wumao credit and do some non-serious squawk, thats for them to choose.

But if it were going so well, they would not be running to India here.....that too changing their whole approach of last few years.

It is simple, they can tap out of their rut on their own time and dime....not ours. We have grown very weary and desensitized of their theatrics.

Our goal is simple, we need to get our 1 trillion savings per year to 2 trillion a year as soon as possible.

Making Pakistan as insignificant as possible is the only assured way to peace with them....independent of their psychology too.

 

[Jackdaws]

This is far into the future and needs Pakistan to produce some concrete deliverables to India to show they actually mean business....as opposed to the last 3 years of their drama grandstanding....and last 3 decades of atrocious behaviour on this matter.

Otherwise this will just be filed in the filing room with rest of stuff gathering dust.

The basic thing propelling this from their end is the state of their economy (esp given CPEC is not panning out anywhere near the brochure promise as China simply will not part with its factories unless you can put up the basic money for it).

The average pakistani saving profile (per year) in the current timespan into their own country goes like:

80 USD ---> 70 USD ---> 60 USD

It will very likely hit 50 USD and could drop below even that.

This is about 10 times less per capita than India, for reference.

This is a number that dictates how much investment you get and will get (i.e stuff you need for concrete sustainable economy in 10 year timeframes and more)....it is so vital to everything.

When even the average Pakistani does not trust in their economy/system (where it really matters)..... it is very unlikely any foreign govt would trust the establishment that got them there because of their staunch psychosis.

This is why for Pakistan's history since formation, it has run from one's special privilege arms to anothers rather than actually developing internal sustained resilience and net inertia.

Thus India will need about 10 years of proven + solid action at the very least, before we ease up on the mutual exclusive diktat we are leveraging on foreign investors/creditors/govts ( can invest in India or Pakistan....but not both)...to keep things as difficult for Pakistan as possible (past what they do by their own utter incompetence).

If Pakistan wants to double and triple down on the wumao credit and do some non-serious squawk, thats for them to choose.

But if it were going so well, they would not be running to India here.....that too changing their whole approach of last few years.

It is simple, they can tap out of their rut on their own time and dime....not ours. We have grown very weary and desensitized of their theatrics.

Our goal is simple, we need to get our 1 trillion savings per year to 2 trillion a year as soon as possible.

Making Pakistan as insignificant as possible is the only assured way to peace with them....independent of their psychology too.

10 years? That's like 2 coups given Pakistan's track record / history.

I see one of these scenarios -

1. China will keep bailing them our till China gets fed up of putting money in a country like Pak

2. Pak will get fed up of China dictating terms. Those Mujahideen can then turn their attention to Xingiang.

China has been counting on Pakistan harassing India with its constant jabbering. It's time India did the same to China. Pakistan is not capable of winning a war but its ability to sacrifice its citizens in terror is matched only perhaps by the LTTE. If we turn Pak on China, it would be an ideal solution.

 

[Philip the Arab]

Unrealistic goal to say the least.

 

[Nilgiri]

10 years? That's like 2 coups given Pakistan's track record / history.

Say hypothetically India flatlines in major (unforseen) way for 10 years and Pakistan on other hand gets nearly everything projected in CPEC MOU brochures (incl the promised transfer of low tier factories).

10 years thus would be the (lower threshold) time is takes for Pakistan to catch up on basic economic-driver parameters. These are things very much like savings and investment (remember GDP estimate is realised manifestation of this about 5, 10, 15, 20 years down road).

It takes 10 years even with everything going perfectly, given Pakistan's own limited capacity to absorb with assumption China was a perfect good-faith provider (or close to it).

Thus 10 years (minimum) in my estimation is what the proof need to be shown on any matter...with absolutely nothing of note to be given in return for free given the backlog that Pakistan khaki et al. has accumulated.

Reality is far different (on all these matters, w.r.t this hypothetical), but 10 years will be good enough to show proof of pudding on some basic intent.

At any rate, this is not the India of Vajpayee lahore bus trip (and what happened right after it)......that too a trip he took after 10 year of pakistan's insurgency investment.

India has moved on and will move on even further. It is imperative we make the basic pressure as stark as possible....to have our terms as solid as possible.

1. China will keep bailing them our till China gets fed up of putting money in a country like Pak

That is fine. China will not really get fed up of it (politically). They are a uni party system....they have gone all in with an atrophied, parched client state like North Korea for a reason. They will bail them out as required too. The interest in bail out lies elsewhere.

In any case, it is fairly cheap for China to bail out Pakistan....its about 10 - 20 billion every 5 or so years....and it only serves to indulge Pakistan's psychological driven rut.

i.e That is 90%+ consumption based bailout....approaching 95% lately.

Pakistan is simply not a saver+investor+truster of itself.

This essentially means that bailout is inflated and consumed away and nothing of real permanence (to alter the Pak economic situation) achieved.

So if its 10 billion or 20 billion, the ROI also hurts China (a running political cost at expense of economics if you will)....as that was 10 or 20 billion it could have invested into something far more productive in either another country or itself.....and grown it to say 100 billion downstream etc (which simply will not happen in Pakistan as they doggedly have a certain self-hate psychology and severe internal-trust issue grown by hating India).

This is win-win for India. India should pay attention to certain elements of the political-military relationship (just like Japan and South Korea do with North Korea) evolving......but the main focus must be for India to sort out its economic and social challenges so that the next tiers of capacity absorption and deployment are sustainably evolved.

2. Pak will get fed up of China dictating terms. Those Mujahideen can then turn their attention to Xingiang.

Doubt it. Logistics just is not there w.r.t China (one road PoK kashgar CPEC thing)....and China shut down the trickle that happened earlier and paying strong attention to it I would assume (given what they are collectively doing to the uighurs as a whole now).

Very different to porous kashmir boundary (and even IB) as it was/is in our case with Pak. Similar situation of porosity exists with BD as well, but we have far better relationship with govt and establishment there as you know....so they cooperate on such issues....rather than deliberately cultivate and promote it.

Pakistan state also knows China is basically the last ticket they have that they can sell to their population in some way (whatever happens and however it goes down mid and long term)....they will not ruin it in such deliberate fashion....PRC has many different (growing) ways to not only increase pressure on Pakistan but also punish them....all while smiling and shaking hands too.

You have to put Pakistan state servility (to any special provider that can bailout/provide the raison d'etre of extreme hostility with India esp after the 1971 cutting to size physically and psychologically) into its context first.

This has crystallised after the relative competition period of post-cold war....it is very clear who occupies the prime role now and who has receded substantially in it.

This servility psychology extends to Pakistan average/lesser "elite" in general....story of creation of this forum....why were the Turks of all people shown door in the end?

China has been counting on Pakistan harassing India with its constant jabbering. It's time India did the same to China. Pakistan is not capable of winning a war but its ability to sacrifice its citizens in terror is matched only perhaps by the LTTE. If we turn Pak on China, it would be an ideal solution.

For India to do the same to China needs India to grow its economy and hard power significantly. Too much time already squandered already. We long know what works and doesn't work....we must be pragmatic on it. Emotions and inner politicking should be for time pass only as far as possible.

Turning Pakistan on China is next to impossible (for reasons I have given above)....the have gone full servile mode and it is really not expensive for PRC to keep current status quo there and look for new openings inside there.

India simply must be wise and as transactional as possible with both. Too much emotion and silliness has been invested at great cost to blood, effort and time already.

If Pakistan and China want to have some drama with each other like the previous benefactor (US) does now with them.....let it grow organically first, that is best way.

There is more than enough emotion and silliness in our own internal structure to occupy ourselves with in this crucial decade...well before concerning with others like our ego seems to propel us to do unnaturally early.