India Air-Force Indian Air Force General Archive

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1678043404721352704

 

[Gessler]

Missed this news back in Feb...

Apparently, the India-US air-launched UAV will have its first flight toward end of the year.

India, US to jointly develop UAVs and share IP rights

The Air Launched Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (ALUAV) program is taking place under the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) and a critical factor is that the intellectual property (IP) rights for the new system will be jointly shared by the two sides.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

 

[Afif]

India Invited to Join Tempest Fighter Jet Program with New Engine for AMCA – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

@Nilgiri @Gessler
Is there an actual possibility?
Been hearing it from the last year.

 

[Gessler]

India Invited to Join Tempest Fighter Jet Program with New Engine for AMCA – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

@Nilgiri @Gessler
Is there an actual possibility?
Been hearing it from the last year.

Hard to say...there is no active intent or roadmap to procure a 6th gen capability at the moment. Without such a directive/request from IAF, the Govt is not going to fund any program.

In the future (~2040-2050s), the MKIs will need a next-gen replacement centered around air-superiority roles. AMCA is not designed for that role as a primary concern so it cannot be the replacement, it will only replace the Mirage-2000s & MiG-29s. So I would say that there is indeed room in the IAF's fleet for a fighter like the Tempest or FCAS.

I'd think that within the next 5 or so years the intent will be in place to pursue a long term 6th gen capability. By that point the two major European ventures which are currently on a pretty unstable/undefined path (especially the Franco-German collaboration***) would take a more firm shape wrt the requirements & partners. At that point a decision could be made to join either. Joining later usually means less access to tech, but the IAF alone would probably present a requirement of between 200-300 airframes (~270 MKIs will need to be replaced) so either consortium would be fools to turn them down.

Besides, the negotiations for AMCA Mk-2 engine program are such that both consortiums appear to be offering a joint development + joint IP ownership contract for a futuristic engine that most probably shares the same core as the one going into their upcoming 6th gen programs, or at least technology heavily derived from that. With the powerplant tech in hand, it's also possible that ADA-HAL could attempt to develop their own 6th gen air superiority program.

Too early to say.

*** Personally I think it's likely that Germany will exit the FCAS/SCAF program due to disagreements with France's carrier-compatible requirements. They've already bought into the F-35 so they'll be less desperate for a VLO capability. If that happens, India will become France's preferred partner and they might offer a much sweeter deal at that point.

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1688127014178541570

 

[Afif]

United Kingdom to Take the Lead in India’s MRFA Tender for Eurofighter Typhoon – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

@Gessler How much chance Typhoon really got for MRFA?

 

[Gessler]

United Kingdom to Take the Lead in India’s MRFA Tender for Eurofighter Typhoon – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

@Gessler How much chance Typhoon really got for MRFA?

Zero as per me.

Rafale is the only realistic choice. Especially as upwards of $2 billion has already been spent in the previous order to develop & implement the ISEs.

Indian Air Force General Archive

defencehub.live

Plus, air base infrastructure for an additional 36 planes has already been created. What all this means is that even if some other aircraft besides Rafale manages to qualify the technical bids (both Rafale & Typhoon qualified last time), Rafale will invariably emerge as L1 in the commercial bid, and get the contract.

 

[Afif]

@Gessler Allegedly IAF S-400s.
Four tube canister with each tube holding a missile?

 

[Gessler]

View attachment 60253

@Gessler Allegedly IAF S-400s.
Four tube canister with each tube holding a missile?

Yes - seems to launchers for the smaller 9M96 missiles. The larger long range rounds are carried in a single-tube canister.

 

[JOYDEEPGHOSH]

Can India Use YF-23 as the Base for its 6th Generation Aircraft?​

Can India Use YF-23 as the Base for its 6th Generation Aircraft?

YF 23 Black Widow As the world moves forward in aircraft technology, it is developing one generation of aircraft after another and e...

rbt-defense.blogspot.com

 

[JOYDEEPGHOSH]

Can India Use YF-23 as the Base for its 6th Generation Aircraft?​

Can India Use YF-23 as the Base for its 6th Generation Aircraft?

YF 23 Black Widow As the world moves forward in aircraft technology, it is developing one generation of aircraft after another and e...

rbt-defense.blogspot.com

@Nilgiri what is hmm

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri what is hmm

Just me thinking. The YF-23 is nice diamond planform and all for a 6th gen basis, but we have long way to go with AMCA maturity first before we can make any valid analysis or projection for India on 6th gen.

Also the propulsion advantages you mention it had over F-22 are things more heavily related to engine technology (India is seriously behind on) separate to anything related to the aerodynamics and stealth of the airframe. The latter are things where India has broad clean sheet capacity developed for now looking at the facilities made and employed currently for AMCA. So there is no real advantage in approaching the US on these things compared to the engine tech and all the other matters that contribute currently to the AMCA delay. Any amount of design basis the US gives on YF-23 as some starting point (within current Indian level of strategic independence) will go through the same slowness in India if these issues are not addressed first with AMCA project....and we simply have no way to tell if India will address them adequately or have to make compromises in acquiring foreign platforms wholesale, or more precise technologies and consultancy etc along the way.

If India is willing to trade off some strategic independence with the US, then we will first see that with F-35 (in next 10 years or so) and joining NGAD later anyway.

i.e I dont see the point of approaching some relatively nominal bit there (essentially the shell, which India can already do) for little guarantee of success (given the innards are the more difficult matters which come with premium for ToT)... especially if India doesn't choose to put in the heavy lifting to mature a lot more core capacities itself first.

So your analysis overarches past a lot of these issues, what exactly is the difference between a clean sheet diamond planform India can do shell wise right now (or later) compared to what the US would give (right now or later) regarding the F-23? Not very much at all.

 

[Afif]

Even if India gets F-35 (unlikely) i am 100% sure, NGAD won’t be up for sale. Let alone becoming a joint project. Honestly, I am really surprised that you said that.

 

[Windchime]

Can India Use YF-23 as the Base for its 6th Generation Aircraft?​

Can India Use YF-23 as the Base for its 6th Generation Aircraft?

YF 23 Black Widow As the world moves forward in aircraft technology, it is developing one generation of aircraft after another and e...

rbt-defense.blogspot.com

no

 

[Nilgiri]

Even if India gets F-35 (unlikely) i am 100% sure, NGAD won’t be up for sale. Let alone becoming a joint project. Honestly, I am really surprised that you said that.

I'm using NGAD as a catch all term for the 6th gen ecosystem that the US has by then for selling/working with deemed close enough allies at that point. NGAD itself will likely be in a tier like F-22 and likely not exportable, just like I find it unlikely that India will be eager enough to fork out larger strategic independence for this anyway, not to mention the distance of time involved.

It is just hypotheticals along an already unlikely arc of some YF-23 planform side project proposal. As to side projects US and India do end up doing in this longer duration of time, that all remains to be seen and depends on how various geopolitical scenarios go.

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1695648923791343667

 

[JOYDEEPGHOSH]

Just me thinking. The YF-23 is nice diamond planform and all for a 6th gen basis, but we have long way to go with AMCA maturity first before we can make any valid analysis or projection for India on 6th gen.

Also the propulsion advantages you mention it had over F-22 are things more heavily related to engine technology (India is seriously behind on) separate to anything related to the aerodynamics and stealth of the airframe. The latter are things where India has broad clean sheet capacity developed for now looking at the facilities made and employed currently for AMCA. So there is no real advantage in approaching the US on these things compared to the engine tech and all the other matters that contribute currently to the AMCA delay. Any amount of design basis the US gives on YF-23 as some starting point (within current Indian level of strategic independence) will go through the same slowness in India if these issues are not addressed first with AMCA project....and we simply have no way to tell if India will address them adequately or have to make compromises in acquiring foreign platforms wholesale, or more precise technologies and consultancy etc along the way.

If India is willing to trade off some strategic independence with the US, then we will first see that with F-35 (in next 10 years or so) and joining NGAD later anyway.

i.e I dont see the point of approaching some relatively nominal bit there (essentially the shell, which India can already do) for little guarantee of success (given the innards are the more difficult matters which come with premium for ToT)... especially if India doesn't choose to put in the heavy lifting to mature a lot more core capacities itself first.

So your analysis overarches past a lot of these issues, what exactly is the difference between a clean sheet diamond planform India can do shell wise right now (or later) compared to what the US would give (right now or later) regarding the F-23? Not very much at all.

may be but facts are facts which is AMCA is still on paper whie yf23 is live example as for dynamics of deal do note beggars cant be choosers, if we cant go to russia it is bcoz we have ben forced to trade much of our strategic independence with usa for lemoa and other such deals alongside 123. in the write up i clearly said yf23 design schematics and whatever learning we can make in AMCA can be put together for developing a 6th gen jet by 2050 right on schedule to replace su30mki n hopefully by 2065 we start work on 7th gen jet without any outside help, and yes yf23 design is still relevant but was more expensive than f22 then today with advancement in tech we can bring down cost significantly. may be overach or overreach but fact is that logic says india is lagging behind so best to use any of the buy borrow steal to be at par. n yes india refused to join tempest so to expect it to join NGAD or even MiG 41 is bit too much

 

[JOYDEEPGHOSH]

Even if India gets F-35 (unlikely) i am 100% sure, NGAD won’t be up for sale. Let alone becoming a joint project. Honestly, I am really surprised that you said that.

if usa give f35 t india it will snatch away whatever strategic autonomy we still hold

 

[JOYDEEPGHOSH]

I'm using NGAD as a catch all term for the 6th gen ecosystem that the US has by then for selling/working with deemed close enough allies at that point. NGAD itself will likely be in a tier like F-22 and likely not exportable, just like I find it unlikely that India will be eager enough to fork out larger strategic independence for this anyway, not to mention the distance of time involved.

It is just hypotheticals along an already unlikely arc of some YF-23 planform side project proposal. As to side projects US and India do end up doing in this longer duration of time, that all remains to be seen and depends on how various geopolitical scenarios go.

got any ther option as i said begars cant be choosers

 

[Nilgiri]

may be but facts are facts which is AMCA is still on paper whie yf23 is live example as for dynamics of deal do note beggars cant be choosers, if we cant go to russia it is bcoz we have ben forced to trade much of our strategic independence with usa for lemoa and other such deals alongside 123. in the write up i clearly said yf23 design schematics and whatever learning we can make in AMCA can be put together for developing a 6th gen jet by 2050 right on schedule to replace su30mki n hopefully by 2065 we start work on 7th gen jet without any outside help, and yes yf23 design is still relevant but was more expensive than f22 then today with advancement in tech we can bring down cost significantly. may be overach or overreach but fact is that logic says india is lagging behind so best to use any of the buy borrow steal to be at par. n yes india refused to join tempest so to expect it to join NGAD or even MiG 41 is bit too much

I get where you are coming from. You want to get ahead of the curve somehow....but there is a long chain of things India needs to fix in its defence establishment before a YF-23 insertion (or equivalent) will make a relevant impact in my view. I mean its not like AMCA is a completely influence-free approach itself, it has lot of convergent evolution with 5th gen broadly in the world....yet look at the pace of the program. Why would a YF-23 not face the same thing?

If in this YF-23 arc there is high hand-holding + "ToT" past this from the US to make things more expedient, its not too different from acquiring F-35 directly, which you yourself already sense is a strategic problem.

AMCA is the only way to work these things out in the chain to some better degree first as strategic-autarkic as possible...to make them faster and experienced for the next program(s).

Guess we will see what happens.