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Joe Shearer

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Can't find this spelling.
How DARE you question Indian contributions to English?
Don't you know that we gave the world zero?
No, I mean.....don't you know that we invented zero and followed it up?
I think that's what I mean.
 

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@Nilgiri after that I will complain less about water sharing.🤣


Edit- I just googled Uttara Pradesh and Bihar's GDP per Capita, which is $1315 & $916 respectively. That is incrediblely low for a such large population compared to national GDP per Capita. Don't they have at least better government institutions than BD given free & fair elections? What's stalling them?
 
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Nilgiri

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@Nilgiri after that I will complain less about water sharing.🤣


Edit- I just googled Uttara Pradesh and Bihar's GDP per Capita, which is $1315 & $916 respectively. That is incrediblely low for a such large population compared to national GDP per Capita. Don't they have at least better government institutions than BD given free & fair elections? What's stalling them?

The issue is way "GDP" calculations are done on state basis (GSDP) with both old and new method India uses (factor cost vs GVA).

A sizeable amount of goods and services are consumed/exported in the more developed states with access to coastline. They get somewhat of a bump by this and interior states get a penalty (figure wise vs reality wise)....w.r.t the supply chain valuation/accounting (simply its easiest to directly measure the final appearance/transaction).

Then there is one total deflator used for INR (i.e one common basket of goods for whole country), whereas really inflation rates would vary quite more from state to state.

Then the exchange with USD (which again has higher intersection with more developed states commerce/infra/consumption patterns compared to less developed states).....which creates its own bump/hit phenomenon....i.e which (interior less developed) states have an actual higher PPP ratio than others....which GDP does not measure.

There are number of distortions present in using GDP to begin with in "internal" way for country this size and then using USD on top as well.

As for the fiscal transfer that happens in union budget, that is natural tendency of any more developed vs less developed situation in a country. Again the sizes involved with India particularly make this hot button more than usual.

The states have their own budgets (using their own taxes and debt and so on), no transfer happens here to other states so focusing on union budget side of things distorts the situation a bit.

Nevertheless the argument for more fiscal decentralisation to the states has both it merits and drawbacks and will stay with India forever given its size and diverse development structure. Even within a state, the phenomenon can be seen vis a vis say cities vs rural (city people complaining of fiscal transfer to rural areas and so on).

There are similar phenomenon in more developed countries like US and EU as well regarding these matters (in EU case, the Euro rate vs debt transfers having differences in impact depending on particular constituent country) where the media exists for it to be voiced.

China would be interesting case study given its size.... if there was similar transparency on the issue, but its not there. Everything is seen in hindsight like it was with USSR before in relatively closed internal info systems.
 

Joe Shearer

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The issue is way "GDP" calculations are done on state basis (GSDP) with both old and new method India uses (factor cost vs GVA).

A sizeable amount of goods and services are consumed/exported in the more developed states with access to coastline. They get somewhat of a bump by this and interior states get a penalty (figure wise vs reality wise)....w.r.t the supply chain valuation/accounting (simply its easiest to directly measure the final appearance/transaction).

Then there is one total deflator used for INR (i.e one common basket of goods for whole country), whereas really inflation rates would vary quite more from state to state.

Then the exchange with USD (which again has higher intersection with more developed states commerce/infra/consumption patterns compared to less developed states).....which creates its own bump/hit phenomenon....i.e which (interior less developed) states have an actual higher PPP ratio than others....which GDP does not measure.

There are number of distortions present in using GDP to begin with in "internal" way for country this size and then using USD on top as well.

As for the fiscal transfer that happens in union budget, that is natural tendency of any more developed vs less developed situation in a country. Again the sizes involved with India particularly make this hot button more than usual.

The states have their own budgets (using their own taxes and debt and so on), no transfer happens here to other states so focusing on union budget side of things distorts the situation a bit.

Nevertheless the argument for more fiscal decentralisation to the states has both it merits and drawbacks and will stay with India forever given its size and diverse development structure. Even within a state, the phenomenon can be seen vis a vis say cities vs rural (city people complaining of fiscal transfer to rural areas and so on).

There are similar phenomenon in more developed countries like US and EU as well regarding these matters (in EU case, the Euro rate vs debt transfers having differences in impact depending on particular constituent country) where the media exists for it to be voiced.

China would be interesting case study given its size.... if there was similar transparency on the issue, but its not there. Everything is seen in hindsight like it was with USSR before in relatively closed internal info systems.
That was a relatively tolerant view, and takes into account the undoubtedly difficult task of calculating a 'State' GDP for the 26 different States.
There are also, as you might well imagine, less tolerant views. The head of the statistical organisation that gathered much of the information that has been referred to in discussions on government accounting resigned at the beginning of the BJP regime; in international circles, the relatively high 'opinion' (ultimately it was opinion and not hard fact, that is not possible to calculate independently given the complications that Nilgiri reminds us about).
The less tolerant analysts have very strong views on both the results - the output, in numeric terms - and the efforts - the input - in politically diverse environments. I will not reduce this to a partisan discussion, but the two sets of opinions, views, standpoints, whatever, tend to fall into political groupings and political affiliations do affect the degree of favour that is shown to the figures and to the administration responsible for actions that result in these figures.
In short, be warned.
 

dronie

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@Nilgiri after that I will complain less about water sharing.🤣


Edit- I just googled Uttara Pradesh and Bihar's GDP per Capita, which is $1315 & $916 respectively. That is incrediblely low for a such large population compared to national GDP per Capita. Don't they have at least better government institutions than BD given free & fair elections? What's stalling them?
Ah shashi tharoor the idiot who thinks by knowing english he can own anyone. My constituency's MP coming from the so called southern state of kerala that boasts about high GDP per capita and literacy whose government is on the verge of bankruptcy and can't even eat without the mercy of other States. De industrialised to its core by socialist policies and now begging to borrow more money to even function when UP and bihar are atleast have industries and are growing. If those States continue their growth you guys wouldn't even want a water treaty because of the industrial waste.
 

Nilgiri

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That was a relatively tolerant view, and takes into account the undoubtedly difficult task of calculating a 'State' GDP for the 26 different States.
There are also, as you might well imagine, less tolerant views. The head of the statistical organisation that gathered much of the information that has been referred to in discussions on government accounting resigned at the beginning of the BJP regime; in international circles, the relatively high 'opinion' (ultimately it was opinion and not hard fact, that is not possible to calculate independently given the complications that Nilgiri reminds us about).
The less tolerant analysts have very strong views on both the results - the output, in numeric terms - and the efforts - the input - in politically diverse environments. I will not reduce this to a partisan discussion, but the two sets of opinions, views, standpoints, whatever, tend to fall into political groupings and political affiliations do affect the degree of favour that is shown to the figures and to the administration responsible for actions that result in these figures.
In short, be warned.

Yeah its the core layer past the politics and corruption of layers above it....basically the basic core issue that would still exist (given size of India and size of world) if the Indian political scene was in say far better shape somehow today.

Say the INC arc (Nehru-Shastri-Kamaraj etc that I mentioned to you previously) pre-Indira continued and implemented robustly and comprehensively, both ideologically and materially. We would still have this problem in some form, but to lesser impactful degree as the basic issue of say the Gangetic plain would be far more socioeconomically developed and have more adequate scale and intensity of capital and human development.

Today we have all kinds of viewing angles/biases that may be used to scapegoat vs praise elements of this subjectively (to add to the structural issue of lower development in the North). The institutional corruption and corporate cronyism for political purpose is notable one that has entrenched in its own way for current regime or example (that affects some great deal regarding the statistics accuracy and relevance). Subjectivity comes first (something has to be better, because my political forces are better) and objectivity is shoved to various degrees make room for that.
 

Nilgiri

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Ah shashi tharoor the idiot who thinks by knowing english he can own anyone. My constituency's MP coming from the so called southern state of kerala that boasts about high GDP per capita and literacy whose government is on the verge of bankruptcy and can't even eat without the mercy of other States. De industrialised to its core by socialist policies and now begging to borrow more money to even function when UP and bihar are atleast have industries and are growing. If those States continue their growth you guys wouldn't even want a water treaty because of the industrial waste.

You are Keralite from Trivandrum?
 

Joe Shearer

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Ah shashi tharoor the idiot who thinks by knowing english he can own anyone. My constituency's MP coming from the so called southern state of kerala that boasts about high GDP per capita and literacy whose government is on the verge of bankruptcy and can't even eat without the mercy of other States. De industrialised to its core by socialist policies and now begging to borrow more money to even function when UP and bihar are atleast have industries and are growing. If those States continue their growth you guys wouldn't even want a water treaty because of the industrial waste.
That is a wonderful, cutting exposure, but are the facts true or not?
Is the percapital GDP of Kerala not what it is said to be?
Is the share of central taxes received back by Kerala not far less than the state contributes?

You have raised some points about food self-sufficiency, and about the development of UP and Bihar. We can look at those too, first let us establish the ground facts.
 

Nilgiri

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That is a wonderful, cutting exposure, but are the facts true or not?
Is the percapital GDP of Kerala not what it is said to be?
Is the share of central taxes received back by Kerala not far less than the state contributes?

You have raised some points about food self-sufficiency, and about the development of UP and Bihar. We can look at those too, first let us establish the ground facts.

There is even issue more directly with what was claimed:

The outstanding liability as % of GSDP as follows:

Kerala 37% of GSDP:

UP: 30% of GSDP

Bihar 38% of GSDP:

Its not like UP and Bihar have wildly different figures to Kerala here, Bihar's is even higher.

We also have to consider what % of revenue than comes from the centre to buttress the expenditure levels (and mitigate the debt %):

Kerala: 34% of revenue comes from centre
UP: 61%
Bihar 77%

i.e If hypothetically Kerala is given the same "assistance" rates as the other 2 or likewise give UP and Bihar the % ratio "donor" Kerala has.... one can ascertain its own outstanding liability would be far lower or in case of UP and Bihar theirs would increase drastically if the spending levels are retained as is.
 

dronie

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Where did the man disappear?
Mate I live in the bloody state.First they claim they aren't receiving any money from the central which then got dismantled and then they bought up the whole the we give UP and Bihar thing and went to the court and then bumbled it into
So after months of crying of union government not giving them money and telling they had evidences they went to the court and wanted to have the ability to borrow more money which centre forbade them because of the risk of not being able pay all back. Sad reality is certain people like you will defend them because they are not BJP and not shame them for their ineptness and corruption. A state government that claims the credit for expansion of National highways lol. Whose massive egostical project called K rail for a semi high speed rail was so idiotic and unpopular that people protested and stopped it work and central government refused it.A government which spent 50 lakhs to kill a wild dog that was pissing in the cliff house when state workers were not paid. A police force who arrested a mike operator because his mike malfunctioned when CM was speaking.
 

Joe Shearer

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Mate I live in the bloody state.First they claim they aren't receiving any money from the central which then got dismantled and then they bought up the whole the we give UP and Bihar thing and went to the court and then bumbled it into
So after months of crying of union government not giving them money and telling they had evidences they went to the court and wanted to have the ability to borrow more money which centre forbade them because of the risk of not being able pay all back. Sad reality is certain people like you will defend them because they are not BJP and not shame them for their ineptness and corruption. A state government that claims the credit for expansion of National highways lol. Whose massive egostical project called K rail for a semi high speed rail was so idiotic and unpopular that people protested and stopped it work and central government refused it.A government which spent 50 lakhs to kill a wild dog that was pissing in the cliff house when state workers were not paid. A police force who arrested a mike operator because his mike malfunctioned when CM was speaking.
LOL.

So your big deal is one court case, in which the Kerala government was protesting the central government ban on borrowing further? as well as a variety of small incidents that seem to have stuck in your mind.

As far as the risk of not paying back, did you even read Nilgiri's note (#1950 above)? Did you even stop to think that most of Kerala's income is taken away and distributed to BIMARU states?

Clearly our positions are so far apart that there is no possibility of getting to any common ground.

Good luck.
 

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