Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

urban mine

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i dont see any chance in this admin or next admin we acquired KFX, chance is kaan and maybe J-35 if China can fast deliver. From mado x, he said actually we want get kick out from that project but Kor still don't want us leave idk why they not kick out us lol, maybe they need our market and to test planet and gather data for futher block
Why is South Korea kicking Indonesia out of the KF-X program? Indonesia is a sovereign state. Your government can leave this program anytime it wants.
 

Zinan 二

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OPINION

Choose KF-21 or KAAN?

So far I have admired the massive development of Turkish defense equipment, but in the context of fighter aircraft cooperation, the choice between the two fighter aircraft above poses a dilemma.

There are several things I consider:

1. From the budget side
We have already invested a lot of funds in this project, including:
-investment in R&D cost share contributions in South Korea.
-investment in Bandung (Indonesia) including infrastructure (hangar, tools) and personnel training to be sent to South Korea.

2. From the development side
The progress of the KF-21 is already far ahead. Where the current position has entered series production with a delivery plan next year. If we are serious and want to follow the agreed cost share, it is actually very profitable to get aerostructure production such as the right main wing, right Horizontal & vertical tailplane, pylon, and After Fuselage Part. This means that with this 20% it is already good, no need to be ambitious in asking for key technology, where we still do not have the capability to make non-key technology.

3. From the weaponry side
Until the end of last year, KAI and MBDA also succeeded in integrating the Meteor Missile on the KF-21. This missile will also be carried by the Rafale fighter jet. In addition, it is also planned to be able to carry the AIM-120 AMRAAM and AIM-9X, two missiles that have so far completed the TNI AU inventory. This means that there is a commonality of weapons that will certainly simplify weapons logistics compared to if we acquired KAAN, which until now has only been integrated with missiles made in Turkey itself. This will be a slightly different story when the TNI AU actually upgrades the F-16 to the level equivalent to the Viper by collaborating with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), because the plan is to integrate the Gokdogan missile (and possibly including the Bozdogan missile). This means that there is a commonality of weapons from the upgraded F-16 with the KAAN fighter jet.

4. From the marketing side
KAI needs Indonesia as a production and marketing partner as well as a market for the KF-21. KAI has shown its intention to help support PTDI's facilities so that they can immediately produce KF-21 structural components. So far, PTDI has only made pylons for the production of the South Korean Air Force's KF-21 series.

According to the agreement, for every KF-21 sold by South Korea, there will be components made in Indonesia such as the right main wing, right Horizontal & vertical tailplane, pylon, and After Fuselage Part. (Until now, there is no information whether this workshare will definitely decrease along with the decline in Indonesia's cost share).
--------
Turkey's Concrete Steps
However, I see that Turkey has 1 interesting offer that South Korea has not been able to offer to Indonesia until now. Namely, cooperation in the manufacture of aircraft components by collaborating with the aircraft component industry in Indonesia which is part of INACOM (Indonesian Aircraft and Component Manufacturer Association).

Indonesia's involvement in the KAAN Project has not yet begun, but Turkish Aerospace has long since opened a branch in Indonesia through PT. Turkish Aerospace Indonesia. Amazingly, they actively collaborate with the aircraft component industry that is part of INACOM to make components for the Hurkus trainer aircraft.

The proof can be seen on June 13th at the Indo Defense exhibition, there was a symbolic handover of NC Part Manufacturing from 3 Indonesian companies that are members of INACOM: PT. Santoso Teknindo (STi), PT. Pudak Scientific, and PT. Yogya Presisi Tehnikatama Industri (YPTI).

In addition, a certificate of passing the quality test was handed over from PT. Turkish Aerospace Indonesia to Turkish Aerospace. Most likely the first shipment of components made by the Indonesian industry to Turkey will occur at the end of June.

Indeed, the components made are still relatively small, but the impact is extraordinary for the Indonesian aircraft component industry. As far as I have followed the development of INACOM, this association seems to be developing slowly. Jobs from the aircraft industry for the 3 industries above are also very limited, except for Pudak which has long collaborated with aircraft component vendors from within and outside the country.

So what STi and YPTI have achieved is an extraordinary achievement. For the first time, they have exported aircraft components abroad. With all the concrete steps taken by Türkiye above, it is not wrong if the government and local industry players are so enthusiastic about approaching Türkiye.

Then can South Korea provide a better offer? Let's just wait for the developments.

***********

OPINI

Pilih KF-21 atau KAAN?

Selama ini saya mengagumi perkembangan alutsista Turki yang sangat masif, namun dalam konteks kerjasama pesawat tempur, pilihan diantara kedua pesawat tempur diatas menimbulkan dilema.

Ada beberapa yang saya pertimbangkan:

1. Dari sisi anggaran
Kita sudah terlanjur menginvestasikan banyak dana ke proyek ini, meliputi:
-investasi iuran cost share R&D di Korea Selatan.
-investasi di Bandung (Indonesia) meliputi sarpras (hanggar, tools) dan diklat personel untuk dikirim ke Korea Selatan.

2. Dari sisi development
Progress KF-21 ini sudah berada jauh didepan. Dimana posisi saat ini sudah masuk produksi seri dengan rencana delivery tahun depan. Jika kita serius dan mau mengikuti cost share yang disepakati sebenarnya sangat menguntungkan mendapatkan produksi aerostructure seperti main wing kanan, Horizontal & vertical tailplane kanan, pylon, dan After Fuselage Part. Artinya dengan 20% ini sudah bagus, tidak usah muluk-muluk minta teknologi kunci, dimana membuat teknologi non kunci saja kita masih belum memiliki kapabilitas.

3. Dari sisi persenjataan
Hingga akhir tahun kemarin, KAI dan MBDA juga berhasil mengintegrasikan Rudal Meteor di KF-21. Ini rudal yang kelak juga akan dibawa oleh pesawat tempur Rafale. Selain itu direncanakan juga mampu membawa AIM-120 AMRAAM dan AIM-9X, dua rudal yang selama ini melengkapi inventori TNI AU. Artinya ada commonality persenjataan yang tentu akan menyederhanakan logistik persenjataan ketimbang jika kita mengakuisisi KAAN yang hingga saat ini integrasinya masih terbatas pada rudal-rudal buatan Turki sendiri. Hal ini akan sedikit berbeda cerita ketika TNI AU benar-benar jadi mengupgrade F-16 ke level setara Viper dengan menggandeng Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), karena rencananya ada integrasi rudal Gokdogan (dan mungkin termasuk rudal Bozdogan). Artinya ada commonality persenjataan F-16 hasil upgrade dengan pesawat temnpur KAAN.

4. Dari sisi Marketing
KAI butuh Indonesia buat partner produksi dan pemasaran sekaligus pasar KF-21. KAI sudah menunjukan itikad untuk membantu mendukung fasilitas PTDI agar bisa segera memproduksi komponen struktur KF-21. Sejauh ini baru pylon yang dibuat PTDI untuk produksi seri KF-21 milik AU Korea Selatan.

Sesuai perjanjian, setiap KF-21 yang dijual Korea Selatan, maka akan ada komponen buatan Indonesia seperti main wing kanan, Horizontal & vertical tailplane kanan, pylon, dan After Fuselage Part. (Hingga saat ini belum ada informasi apakah workshare ini akan pasti menyusut seiring dengan turunnya cost share Indonesia).
--------
Langkah Konkret Turki
Namun begitu, saya lihat Turki memiliki 1 tawaran menarik yang hingga detik ini belum bisa ditawarkan Korea Selatan ke Indonesia. Yakni kerjasama pembuatan komponen pesawat dengan menggandeng industri komponen pesawat terbang di Indonesia yang tergabung kedalam INACOM (Indonesian Aircraft and Component Manufacturer Association/ Asosiasi Industri Komponen Pesawat Terbang Indonesia).

Keterlibatan Indonesia di Proyek KAAN belum dimulai, namun Turkish Aerospace jauh-jauh hari sudah membuka cabang di Indonesia melalui PT. Turkish Aerospace Indonesia. Luar biasanya mereka aktif menggandeng industri komponen pesawat yang tergabung dalam INACOM untuk membuat komponen pesawat latih Hurkus.

Buktinya bisa dilihat pada tanggal 13 Juni kemarin dalam pameran Indo Defence, diadakan penyerahan simbolik NC Part Manufacturing dari 3 perusahaan Indonesia yang menjadi anggota INACOM: PT. Santoso Teknindo (STi), PT. Pudak Scientific, dan PT. Yogya Presisi Tehnikatama Industri (YPTI).

Selain itu dilakukan penyerahan sertifikat lolos uji kualitas dari PT. Turkish Aerospace Indonesia kepada Turkish Aerospace. Kemungkinan besar pengiriman perdana komponen buatan industri Indonesia ke Turki terjadi pada akhir bulan Juni ini.

Memang komponen yang dibuat ini masih tergolong kecil, namun dampaknya luar biasa bagi industri komponen pesawat indonesia. Sejauh saya mengikuti perkembangan INACOM, asosiasi ini terkesan lambat perkembangannya. Job dari industri pesawat untuk 3 industri diatas juga terbatas sekali, kecuali untuk Pudak yang sudah lama menjalin kerjasama dengan vendor komponen pesawat dari dalam dan luar negeri.

Dengan begitu apa yang diperoleh STi dan YPTI adalah capaian luar biasa. Untuk pertama kalinya melakukan ekspor komponen pesawat terbang ke mancanegara. Dengan segala langkah konkret yang dilakukan Turki diatas, maka tidak salah jika pemerintah maupun pelaku industri lokal begitu antusias merapat ke Turki.

Lalu apakah Korea Selatan bisa memberikan tawaran lebih baik? Kita tunggu saja perkembangannya.

#KF21 #KAAN #jetfighter #fighterjet #hurkus #turkishaerospace #inacom #combataircraft

Source: From yudi supri FB
 

Stuka Dive

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But KF21 already entered production, while KAAN still in development and will take 10 years to deliver 48 unit to Indonesia (kalau jadi dan tidak ada perubahan).
Perhaps something similar like "interim" Fighter jets from Gen 4.5 to Gen 5?
as the number also the same by far, 48 KFX to 48 KAAN
And also to mention for the Indonesia side, it will be complementary for our aerospace industry what are gained in KFX program and what will be gained in KAAN program in terms of technological transfer and industries capability.
 

urban mine

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OPINION

Choose KF-21 or KAAN?

So far I have admired the massive development of Turkish defense equipment, but in the context of fighter aircraft cooperation, the choice between the two fighter aircraft above poses a dilemma.

There are several things I consider:

1. From the budget side
We have already invested a lot of funds in this project, including:
-investment in R&D cost share contributions in South Korea.
-investment in Bandung (Indonesia) including infrastructure (hangar, tools) and personnel training to be sent to South Korea.

2. From the development side
The progress of the KF-21 is already far ahead. Where the current position has entered series production with a delivery plan next year. If we are serious and want to follow the agreed cost share, it is actually very profitable to get aerostructure production such as the right main wing, right Horizontal & vertical tailplane, pylon, and After Fuselage Part. This means that with this 20% it is already good, no need to be ambitious in asking for key technology, where we still do not have the capability to make non-key technology.

3. From the weaponry side
Until the end of last year, KAI and MBDA also succeeded in integrating the Meteor Missile on the KF-21. This missile will also be carried by the Rafale fighter jet. In addition, it is also planned to be able to carry the AIM-120 AMRAAM and AIM-9X, two missiles that have so far completed the TNI AU inventory. This means that there is a commonality of weapons that will certainly simplify weapons logistics compared to if we acquired KAAN, which until now has only been integrated with missiles made in Turkey itself. This will be a slightly different story when the TNI AU actually upgrades the F-16 to the level equivalent to the Viper by collaborating with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), because the plan is to integrate the Gokdogan missile (and possibly including the Bozdogan missile). This means that there is a commonality of weapons from the upgraded F-16 with the KAAN fighter jet.

4. From the marketing side
KAI needs Indonesia as a production and marketing partner as well as a market for the KF-21. KAI has shown its intention to help support PTDI's facilities so that they can immediately produce KF-21 structural components. So far, PTDI has only made pylons for the production of the South Korean Air Force's KF-21 series.

According to the agreement, for every KF-21 sold by South Korea, there will be components made in Indonesia such as the right main wing, right Horizontal & vertical tailplane, pylon, and After Fuselage Part. (Until now, there is no information whether this workshare will definitely decrease along with the decline in Indonesia's cost share).
--------
Turkey's Concrete Steps
However, I see that Turkey has 1 interesting offer that South Korea has not been able to offer to Indonesia until now. Namely, cooperation in the manufacture of aircraft components by collaborating with the aircraft component industry in Indonesia which is part of INACOM (Indonesian Aircraft and Component Manufacturer Association).

Indonesia's involvement in the KAAN Project has not yet begun, but Turkish Aerospace has long since opened a branch in Indonesia through PT. Turkish Aerospace Indonesia. Amazingly, they actively collaborate with the aircraft component industry that is part of INACOM to make components for the Hurkus trainer aircraft.

The proof can be seen on June 13th at the Indo Defense exhibition, there was a symbolic handover of NC Part Manufacturing from 3 Indonesian companies that are members of INACOM: PT. Santoso Teknindo (STi), PT. Pudak Scientific, and PT. Yogya Presisi Tehnikatama Industri (YPTI).

In addition, a certificate of passing the quality test was handed over from PT. Turkish Aerospace Indonesia to Turkish Aerospace. Most likely the first shipment of components made by the Indonesian industry to Turkey will occur at the end of June.

Indeed, the components made are still relatively small, but the impact is extraordinary for the Indonesian aircraft component industry. As far as I have followed the development of INACOM, this association seems to be developing slowly. Jobs from the aircraft industry for the 3 industries above are also very limited, except for Pudak which has long collaborated with aircraft component vendors from within and outside the country.

So what STi and YPTI have achieved is an extraordinary achievement. For the first time, they have exported aircraft components abroad. With all the concrete steps taken by Türkiye above, it is not wrong if the government and local industry players are so enthusiastic about approaching Türkiye.

Then can South Korea provide a better offer? Let's just wait for the developments.

***********

OPINI

Pilih KF-21 atau KAAN?

Selama ini saya mengagumi perkembangan alutsista Turki yang sangat masif, namun dalam konteks kerjasama pesawat tempur, pilihan diantara kedua pesawat tempur diatas menimbulkan dilema.

Ada beberapa yang saya pertimbangkan:

1. Dari sisi anggaran
Kita sudah terlanjur menginvestasikan banyak dana ke proyek ini, meliputi:
-investasi iuran cost share R&D di Korea Selatan.
-investasi di Bandung (Indonesia) meliputi sarpras (hanggar, tools) dan diklat personel untuk dikirim ke Korea Selatan.

2. Dari sisi development
Progress KF-21 ini sudah berada jauh didepan. Dimana posisi saat ini sudah masuk produksi seri dengan rencana delivery tahun depan. Jika kita serius dan mau mengikuti cost share yang disepakati sebenarnya sangat menguntungkan mendapatkan produksi aerostructure seperti main wing kanan, Horizontal & vertical tailplane kanan, pylon, dan After Fuselage Part. Artinya dengan 20% ini sudah bagus, tidak usah muluk-muluk minta teknologi kunci, dimana membuat teknologi non kunci saja kita masih belum memiliki kapabilitas.

3. Dari sisi persenjataan
Hingga akhir tahun kemarin, KAI dan MBDA juga berhasil mengintegrasikan Rudal Meteor di KF-21. Ini rudal yang kelak juga akan dibawa oleh pesawat tempur Rafale. Selain itu direncanakan juga mampu membawa AIM-120 AMRAAM dan AIM-9X, dua rudal yang selama ini melengkapi inventori TNI AU. Artinya ada commonality persenjataan yang tentu akan menyederhanakan logistik persenjataan ketimbang jika kita mengakuisisi KAAN yang hingga saat ini integrasinya masih terbatas pada rudal-rudal buatan Turki sendiri. Hal ini akan sedikit berbeda cerita ketika TNI AU benar-benar jadi mengupgrade F-16 ke level setara Viper dengan menggandeng Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), karena rencananya ada integrasi rudal Gokdogan (dan mungkin termasuk rudal Bozdogan). Artinya ada commonality persenjataan F-16 hasil upgrade dengan pesawat temnpur KAAN.

4. Dari sisi Marketing
KAI butuh Indonesia buat partner produksi dan pemasaran sekaligus pasar KF-21. KAI sudah menunjukan itikad untuk membantu mendukung fasilitas PTDI agar bisa segera memproduksi komponen struktur KF-21. Sejauh ini baru pylon yang dibuat PTDI untuk produksi seri KF-21 milik AU Korea Selatan.

Sesuai perjanjian, setiap KF-21 yang dijual Korea Selatan, maka akan ada komponen buatan Indonesia seperti main wing kanan, Horizontal & vertical tailplane kanan, pylon, dan After Fuselage Part. (Hingga saat ini belum ada informasi apakah workshare ini akan pasti menyusut seiring dengan turunnya cost share Indonesia).
--------
Langkah Konkret Turki
Namun begitu, saya lihat Turki memiliki 1 tawaran menarik yang hingga detik ini belum bisa ditawarkan Korea Selatan ke Indonesia. Yakni kerjasama pembuatan komponen pesawat dengan menggandeng industri komponen pesawat terbang di Indonesia yang tergabung kedalam INACOM (Indonesian Aircraft and Component Manufacturer Association/ Asosiasi Industri Komponen Pesawat Terbang Indonesia).

Keterlibatan Indonesia di Proyek KAAN belum dimulai, namun Turkish Aerospace jauh-jauh hari sudah membuka cabang di Indonesia melalui PT. Turkish Aerospace Indonesia. Luar biasanya mereka aktif menggandeng industri komponen pesawat yang tergabung dalam INACOM untuk membuat komponen pesawat latih Hurkus.

Buktinya bisa dilihat pada tanggal 13 Juni kemarin dalam pameran Indo Defence, diadakan penyerahan simbolik NC Part Manufacturing dari 3 perusahaan Indonesia yang menjadi anggota INACOM: PT. Santoso Teknindo (STi), PT. Pudak Scientific, dan PT. Yogya Presisi Tehnikatama Industri (YPTI).

Selain itu dilakukan penyerahan sertifikat lolos uji kualitas dari PT. Turkish Aerospace Indonesia kepada Turkish Aerospace. Kemungkinan besar pengiriman perdana komponen buatan industri Indonesia ke Turki terjadi pada akhir bulan Juni ini.

Memang komponen yang dibuat ini masih tergolong kecil, namun dampaknya luar biasa bagi industri komponen pesawat indonesia. Sejauh saya mengikuti perkembangan INACOM, asosiasi ini terkesan lambat perkembangannya. Job dari industri pesawat untuk 3 industri diatas juga terbatas sekali, kecuali untuk Pudak yang sudah lama menjalin kerjasama dengan vendor komponen pesawat dari dalam dan luar negeri.

Dengan begitu apa yang diperoleh STi dan YPTI adalah capaian luar biasa. Untuk pertama kalinya melakukan ekspor komponen pesawat terbang ke mancanegara. Dengan segala langkah konkret yang dilakukan Turki diatas, maka tidak salah jika pemerintah maupun pelaku industri lokal begitu antusias merapat ke Turki.

Lalu apakah Korea Selatan bisa memberikan tawaran lebih baik? Kita tunggu saja perkembangannya.

#KF21 #KAAN #jetfighter #fighterjet #hurkus #turkishaerospace #inacom #combataircraft

Source: From yudi supri FB
Yudi Supri is well-liked for writing impressive posts. However, it seems that the comments complete this post.

Imaduddin Yusuf

Lucu aja sih melihat disini merasa milih kaan turki lebih baik daripada kfx korsel
Padahal yang jadi pr itu management disini dan serius ga untuk RnD. Kalau ga ada perubahan ya kaan cuma spiral lagi, bahkan bisa lebih parah dari kfx karena burden disini makin besar karena dananya makin kesedot.
Jadi ya sama aja kfx atau kaan. Walaupun kfx lebih mature karena udah dipesen korsel dan bau2 nya polandia join ikutan beli

Yudi Supriyono
Imaduddin Yusuf yup, kalau manajemen proyek masih kayak sekarang, gabung proyek apapun juga sia sia.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's funny to see people here thinking that Turkey is better than South Korea's KF-X.
The real issue here is the management and their lack of commitment to R&D. If there's no change, it'll just be more of the same, and it could even be worse than the KFX because the burden here is growing as the funds keep getting drained.
So it's the same whether it's the KFX or the Kaan. Even though the KFX is more mature since it's already been ordered by South Korea and there's talk of Poland joining in to buy it.

Yes, if project management remains as it is now, joining any project will be futile.
 

kanalkanan

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Why is South Korea kicking Indonesia out of the KF-X program? Indonesia is a sovereign state. Your government can leave this program anytime it wants.
good relations between the two countries are still taken into account. so far Sokor has helped a lot with industrialization and other developments
 

FPXAllen

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They said still 48 here
My prediction was wrong then.

But then again, I kinda think 48 KF-21 block 1 that are mostly optimized for air to air is a bit too much, no? Unless we have the means to modify them ourselves so they will become multi-role combat jets—which probably will cost us more in the long run.
 

NEKO

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48 KF-21 block 1
Still unclear 48 for block 1 or could be split to several batch, first batch for block 1 and second batch for block 2/3.
KF21 already entered production, lets see if we place order soon.
 

Umigami

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My prediction was wrong then.

But then again, I kinda think 48 KF-21 block 1 that are mostly optimized for air to air is a bit too much, no? Unless we have the means to modify them ourselves so they will become multi-role combat jets—which probably will cost us more in the long run.
Block 1 can be upgrade to multirole block 2
 

chibiyabi

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I said it here yesterday or the day before and I say it again: beware dealing with Indonesia. Indonesia cannot be trusted.



Sad for the KAAN programme.
there will no reboot programe for IFX, its just we threw 400 millions dollar to became first customer of KFX/IFX, there will be no development program anymore for both countries. too many problems with these program since the beggining, like how come laptop from indonesian minister hijacked during negotiations meeting. and then last case, indonesian technician accused stealing important datas. plus personal problem from our current presiden regarding his relative who became victim of Sokor overhauled submarine accident.
 

urban mine

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there will no reboot programe for IFX, its just we threw 400 millions dollar to became first customer of KFX/IFX, there will be no development program anymore for both countries. too many problems with these program since the beggining, like how come laptop from indonesian minister hijacked during negotiations meeting. and then last case, indonesian technician accused stealing important datas. plus personal problem from our current presiden regarding his relative who became victim of Sokor overhauled submarine accident.
Even if we put aside the issue of spying between the two countries, are you in a position to know how Indonesian politicians perceive the KF-X/IF-X program?
Furthermore, it is extremely offensive to blame South Korea for the sinking of your 40-year-old 209-class submarine in 2021, which underwent an overhaul in 2012.
I even saw news reports that the submarine had not been submerged since 2018 and that the accident occurred after it was submerged in 2021.
If South Korea was involved in that accident, there should be more credible evidence to support that claim. At the very least, an official investigation report should be presented. Otherwise, it would be an insult to the crew members of your country who are still resting at the bottom of the sea.
 

urban mine

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what happen in indo defence show clear sign regarding indo procurement weapon from SoKor, what ever reason behind that..

don't forgot about 3 chang bo go class.. not old as that germany made, but its also cant submerge
Do I have to repeat myself? If there is official evidence that South Korea was at fault in the sinking of the KRI Nanggala, please let me know.

If not, then you should stop spreading false information in a sinister manner.
 

chibiyabi

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Do I have to repeat myself? If there is official evidence that South Korea was at fault in the sinking of the KRI Nanggala, please let me know.

If not, then you should stop spreading false information in a sinister manner.
as indonesian when at first military project indo SoKor gain hudge success for Makasar class, what happen for IFX and CBG class sinistic sound Its about to low. Buyer n Producer must at same level, but past is a past, now we have lot of bussines with Italian for PPA n future FREMM, French with 42 + 12 optional rafale, plus hudge amount producs From Turkiye, last, KAAN. KAAN MoU was another sign for bigger purchase from Turkiye.
 

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GuAsXRZWwAAP9Gf.jpeg


 

afiq

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US is fast tracking the retirement of these planes

162 unit A-10 Thunderbolt
14 unit C-130H Hercules
3 unit EC-130H Compass Call
13 unit F-15 C/D Eagle
21 unit F-15E Strike Eagle
62 unit F-16C/D Fighting Falcon
14 unit KC-135 Stratotanker
35 unit T-1A Jayhawk
1 unit pengebom B-1 Lancer
11 unit helikopter HH-60G Pave Hawk
4 unit helikopter UH-1N Huey

Are we buying any of these ?
 
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