Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

[Anmdt]

one of them is (that is very interesting IMO) is the small jet engine tech

There are several companies selling high grade engines for missiles anyway. It is a great technology yes, but assembling as also thought by some people is not just assembling stuff and flying a missile with some algorithm.
In my opinion a whole ToT on how to make a missile is much more precious at the beginning.

the disadvantage probably the munition will cost a fortune

Still much cheaper compared to an AShM.

 

[Anmdt]

IMHO, excocet is quite reliable due to it's semi modular layout that could be upgrade to latest generations, also exocet provide sub launched capability (wich, if am not mistaken Navy want submarine launched missile too). Beside all of Naval main combatant are using exocet MM40 block 2/3, this missile has strong chance to serve IDN Navy for far future.

Pretty much all AShM made in 21st century capable of those. It is better if Indonesia plans to have high number of AShM missiles in future, it should be produced locally or via Joint production.

 

[Indos]

Did we have the capabilities/tech to implement ToT, did we success in C705 ToT scheme?

Nope, TOT in here is merely assembling that Indonesia part finally rejected

 

[Indos]

As I said previously, future cruise missile is likely use Electric Deducted Fan jet engine rather than combustion jet engine. Our research has also been in this direction. This is fit with our plan to make JV with Korean in EV battery technology that later this technology can be used for other application like in cruise missile project.

That UGM cruise missile project also uses EDF engine, same like LAPAN where it will still use propellan for booster. This is the future IMO and our expert I believe has realized its potential as well

 

[FPXAllen]

It is better if Indonesia plans to have high number of AShM missiles in future, it should be produced locally or via Joint production.

I'm all for us to have as much AShM missiles and their launch platforms as possible. However there are a few things that I'm concerned with, for example:

1. Technological advancement in future AShM missile technologies: Save for a few Russian P-800 missiles in just one launch platform, all other AShM missiles we currently have are subsonics. While this doesn't necessarily mean that they're already obsolete, but it's probably safe to say that their effectiveness are becoming more and more reduced given that even the smaller patrol boats today can be equipped with CIWS and other anti missile counter measures. There might be other ways to at least partially compensate for this - applying stealth technologies in subsonic missile, for one - but then again, this is only half-done since future missiles will be supersonic (even hypersonic) and stealthy.

So I'm not sure if this is still a good move if we're still fiddling with developing and producing missiles especially if they're still only in the same class and performance like Harpoon, Exocet, C-705 et cetera.

2. If, then, instead of producing our own last-gen missiles we decide to go all out and aim big to start designing, developing and producing next-gen missiles, I just don't know how many decades this will take since we're still lacking in knowledge and experience in making some necessary and critical components. Joint development might be able to help alleviate these problems a lot, but then again deciding which country to ask to join is not a simple matter since they probably have their own missile development program that they want to keep for themselves.

What are your take on this?

 

[Captain Wales]

They said NSM can attack land target.

Naval Strike Missile (NSM)

The Naval Strike Missile (NSM) is an anti-ship / land attack cruise missile developed by Norway-based Kongsberg Defence Systems.

www.naval-technology.com

NSM for land attack capability right now, still needed to be work on.

they are more focus on JSM for land attack capability especially with funding from Aussie / US and put those in service as soon as possible for their F-35/naval ships.

 

[Anmdt]

So I'm not sure if this is still a good move if we're still fiddling with developing and producing missiles especially if they're still only in the same class and performance like Harpoon, Exocet, C-705 et cetera.

How do you plan to learn how to make the future and advanced one without even making or being able to make the "common one"?

2. If, then, instead of producing our own last-gen missiles we decide to go all out and aim big to start designing, developing and producing next-gen missiles, I just don't know how many decades this will take since we're still lacking in knowledge and experience in making some necessary and critical components. Joint development might be able to help alleviate these problems a lot, but then again deciding which country to ask to join is not a simple matter since they probably have their own missile development program that they want to keep for themselves.

That is why i have asked the question above, start from the simplest way as soon as possible to build a knowledge to implement the future tech when it becomes available or feasible. Keywords here are "simplest" and "as soon as possible", each year spent without doing anything, the gap in future becomes wider.

 

[FPXAllen]

How do you plan to learn how to make the future and advanced one without even making or being able to make the "common one"?


That is why i have asked the question above, start from the simplest way as soon as possible to build a knowledge to implement the future tech when it becomes available or feasible. Keywords here are "simplest" and "as soon as possible", each year spent without doing anything, the gap in future becomes wider.

I understand this, of course. But by the time the common project materializes, I'm afraid it will already obsolete. Unless, there are some major breakthrough and not only following the established patterns. Like what I'm writing previously: even if it's still subsonic, but if it also applies some stealth technologies in its design then at least it still has a better fighting chance against modern naval combatants.

 

[Captain Wales]

But by the time the common project materializes, I'm afraid it will already obsolete

in today world, technically all defense equipment already obsolete when they enter service.

it's just who got more obsolete equipment, you or the enemy.

 

[Anmdt]

I understand this, of course. But by the time the common project materializes, I'm afraid it will already obsolete. Unless, there are some major breakthrough and not only following the established patterns. Like what I'm writing previously: even if it's still subsonic, but if it also applies some stealth technologies in its design then at least it still has a better fighting chance against modern naval combatants.

Well from that point of view, students should skip 1st,2nd and 3rd year in college and skip to the 4th year because first three is obsolete and usually useless for the major anyway?

Major breakthrough require a well established R&D and Scientific studies for a base knowledge to build upon. And for these, you need to start from the simplest and the most common one.

Fighting modern combatants is more about network centric warfare, munitions that can be controlled via interchangeable command loops, and ISR before it is being about a hypersonic missile.

even if it's still subsonic

Do you think it is easy to make a missile and fly it at speeds above 0.8-0.9 Mach and engage a target BLOS on its own while possibly processing the target image and estimating where and how to approach?

 

[FPXAllen]

in today world, technically all defense equipment already obsolete when they enter service.

it's just who got more obsolete equipment, you or the enemy.

That's practically what happens in the tech worlds isn't it? Even your gadgets are obsolete when their producers are starting to put those into market.

With that logic, of course a Nokia 3310 is still better in some aspects compared to the latest smartphones, so it's then probably only a matter of using the right tool for the jobs.

But when it comes to missiles, especially anti-ship ones, unless we have plenty of them as well as plenty of launch platforms where we can launch a saturation attack on an advanced frigate or destroyer or even a complete carrier battle group to overwhelm their defences and counter measures, then the chances are slim for one or a few missiles to be able to reach their targets.

That's what I think, at least.

 

[FPXAllen]

Do you think it is easy to make a missile and fly it at speeds above 0.8-0.9 Mach and engage a target BLOS on its own while possibly processing the target image and estimating where and how to approach?

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I realize even with missiles that are currently fielded, the obstacles for us to be able to reach the capability to build one ourselves are gigantic. And it's not about 'skipping classes' either.

It will be a long way, I know, but then I start asking whether it will be worth it if we still only be able to produce 'basic missiles' while the threats already fielded their more advanced ones? And, God forbid, what will it be if we're already in armed and major conflict by then?

And yes, about R&D, unfortunately this is where we're still lacking the most.

 

[Anmdt]

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I realize even with missiles that are currently fielded, the obstacles for us to be able to reach the capability to build one ourselves are gigantic. And it's not about 'skipping classes' either.

It will be a long way, I know, but then I start asking whether it will be worth it if we still only be able to produce 'basic missiles' while the threats already fielded their more advanced ones? And, God forbid, what will it be if we're already in armed and major conflict by then?

And yes, about R&D, unfortunately this is where we're still lacking the most.

And what happens if a major breaks out and even for those simple missiles Indonesia relies on foreign logistics? If foreigners can possibly provide those simpler systems now, they can also provide the advanced and cutting edge systems when a major war breaks out. At least in that time, there will be no reliance to foreigners for the simpler systems

-Better than nothing, definitely,
-Will provide a base knowledge for future or customized weapons, definitely,
-Will still have a use in near and mid future with basic upgrades, definitely,
-Can benefit some other possible munitions to be used from Drones, definitely,

It looks really reasonable to start from now aiming a simple rather common step and gradually gearing up as technology and capabilities advances.

For example if a high subsonic AShM is made (or any of the major items marked with bold), it will also benefit coastal defense missiles, LACM, ALCM, loitering munitions, light low-cost cruise missiles, smart missiles, guidance kits.

As technology advances, replace the seeker, improve the seeker (dual mode seekers, LPI seeker, home on jamming, home on radar), add uplink and target update (man in the loop, network up-link, swarming), image processing (way point guidance, target identification and specialized attack plans for each target), make it jam-resistant and finally use common systems and introduce a supersonic version once sufficient knowledge has built up.

 

[Indos]

Talking about cruise missile development, the flight control system that is developed by LEN for our MALE UCAV will be of course useful for another program which is cruise missile which is currently also underdevelopment.

 

[Ravager]

What I mean which is best option overall?

I personally go for the NSM it's too bad their punch were kind of the weaker side of today scenario .

Neptune : punten slurrrrr

Still unknown though will we buy it, its still new and different from what we have but if its cheap and come with ToT its quite tempting.

Dude , Neptune haven't landed in our inventory as yet .

I'm all for us to have as much AShM missiles and their launch platforms as possible. However there are a few things that I'm concerned with, for example:

1. Technological advancement in future AShM missile technologies: Save for a few Russian P-800 missiles in just one launch platform, all other AShM missiles we currently have are subsonics. While this doesn't necessarily mean that they're already obsolete, but it's probably safe to say that their effectiveness are becoming more and more reduced given that even the smaller patrol boats today can be equipped with CIWS and other anti missile counter measures. There might be other ways to at least partially compensate for this - applying stealth technologies in subsonic missile, for one - but then again, this is only half-done since future missiles will be supersonic (even hypersonic) and stealthy.

So I'm not sure if this is still a good move if we're still fiddling with developing and producing missiles especially if they're still only in the same class and performance like Harpoon, Exocet, C-705 et cetera.

2. If, then, instead of producing our own last-gen missiles we decide to go all out and aim big to start designing, developing and producing next-gen missiles, I just don't know how many decades this will take since we're still lacking in knowledge and experience in making some necessary and critical components. Joint development might be able to help alleviate these problems a lot, but then again deciding which country to ask to join is not a simple matter since they probably have their own missile development program that they want to keep for themselves.

What are your take on this?

Without basic knowledge you are simply couldn't create a conducive manufacturing environment for the said industry . As simple as that .... And i'm a prolific believer take what you've in your hand not what you will/promised to be ..
Mending singkong nyata drpd roti mimpi

** The very big question today is ...after 75 years of independences how come that god damn cassavas hasn't been seen as yet ???

 

[Umigami]

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=4073698816039909&id=108756005867563

Reminder of what we face on North Natuna sea.
We really need those Iver / Fremm / Mogami

 

[Mandala]

 

[Captain Wales]

NSM it's too bad their punch were kind of the weaker side of today scenario .

other option is NSM younger brother JSM, it got a bit larger warhead and better software, it also can be air launch.

 

[trishna_amrta]

They said NSM can attack land target.

Naval Strike Missile (NSM)

The Naval Strike Missile (NSM) is an anti-ship / land attack cruise missile developed by Norway-based Kongsberg Defence Systems.

www.naval-technology.com

the latest exocet block 3c can do it too .

NSM for land attack capability right now, still needed to be work on.

they are more focus on JSM for land attack capability especially with funding from Aussie / US and put those in service as soon as possible for their F-35/naval ships.

Hovsa-Missilet (The Whoops Missile aka RGM-84) has already achieved such capability back in 1982. Its work even better, the missile can decide when to launch without any operator input. IF the missile doesn't like something, it will decide to launch itself and began to track whatever target it happen to dislike at the time. In this case it was power lines and a group of summer cottages. Luckily nobody was inside the cottages the missile hate, thus no human injury occurred as a result of it

 

[Madokafc]

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=4073698816039909&id=108756005867563

Reminder of what we face on North Natuna sea.
We really need those Iver / Fremm / Mogami

Not to mention their type 052D still roaming around in much larger number (with 17 active units and more on the pipeline to reach 25), we don't have anything closer to reach any qualitative and quantitative parity there to deter them at least. My greatest worry is when the balance of power is too tilted toward PLA Navy compared to the sum of capability of ASEAN Navies summed together, then the equilibrium of power would be upset so much and the risk of conflict to be happened would be much higher. Personally i don't want to see Renhai and Luyang class wreaking havoc against our neighbor very near on our border.

This would be a very nice addition to our dilapidated ASW capabilities