Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

[Madokafc]

"The main gun, cal 127 mm, is no longer used by warships in the world today. It's outdated, maybe even the bullets are hard to get. If something goes wrong, for example the barrel of a cannon is bent due to heat, it's hard to get a replacement"

de zeven provincien , takanami class and south korean gwanggaeto class beg to differ ..... , not only that he's like directly questioning the ability of Leonardo and Oto melara for their after market service performance (hard to get replacement) , which are supplier for naval cannon "sejuta umat" .

Maybe antek meneer

Or worse from country up North

That's the same species who Made rejection toward US offer back then

 

[Madokafc]

Btw, for torp, why he is not mention in modern Naval warfare for surface combatant warships, the more important assets they have is not triple torps anymore but something like MILAS or ASROC. And btw, PKR class still used old school triple torps

 

[Lordimperator]

purchase 8 Maestrale class frigates.

Heck..., 6 FREMM + 2 Maestrale

Or worse from country up North

Yikes, probably

 

[Parry Brima]

"The main gun, cal 127 mm, is no longer used by warships in the world today. It's outdated, maybe even the bullets are hard to get. If something goes wrong, for example the barrel of a cannon is bent due to heat, it's hard to get a replacement"

de zeven provincien , takanami class and south korean gwanggaeto class beg to differ ..... , not only that he's like directly questioning the ability of Leonardo and Oto melara for their after market service performance (hard to get replacement) , which are supplier for naval cannon "sejuta umat" .

The biggest loser from our FREMM deal is Damen, no? They and their gangs who would probably complain the most.

 

[Basith90]

this is why our AL can't get good stuff

Kapal Usang untuk TNI AL? - Industry.co.id

Setelah tenggelamnya KRI Nanggala, Kementerian Pertahanan berencana

www.industry.co.id

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

INDUSTRY.co.id - After the sinking of the KRI Nanggala, the Ministry of Defense plans to "modernize" the TNI's defense equipment. It was reported that Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto had signed a contract to purchase 8 Maestrale class frigates.

The Maestrale-class frigate was built on March 8, 1978 at the Riva Trigoso shipyard, Genoa, Italy. Let's measure whether this ship is suitable for use by the Navy.

There are four measures used to measure the feasibility of ships for the Navy. The four dimensions are the ability to float, the ability to sail and the ability to fight.

1. Floatability

Floatability is the main requirement for a ship. Because the ship was built in 1978, it means that the ship is 43 years old. From my experience, for ships that are 43 years old, many of the hulls are thin and porous. Likewise, the tusks of the ship's hull have undergone a lot of deformation and are also porous.

Although the hull of the ship has been replaced by many plates, it is impossible to renew the tusks of the ship. Thus, the buoyancy of a 43-year-old ship is already very vulnerable.

It is feared to hold the EEZ sea waves alone, the ship's hull and tusks are no longer strong so that it can cause leakage when hit by the waves.

For example, in 2017, KRI Sibarau experienced a leak and sank while sailing in the Malacca Strait. KRI Sibarau was built in Australia in 1968. When it sank, it was 49 years old.

2. Sailing ability

The sailing ability of a ship is determined by the main propulsion engine that rotates the ship's propeller, the electric engine that generates the ship's electricity, as well as auxiliary engine equipment such as pumps.

From my experience, for a machine that is 43 years old, it is no longer possible to operate it for a long time. Some spare parts are no longer produced. Even engine material that has experienced exhaustion can explode, then catch fire and sink.

For example, in 2018, KRI Rencong, which was sailing in the waters of Sorong, exploded, causing the ship to catch fire and sink.

KRI Rencong was built in Korea in 1979. When the engine caught fire and sank, KRI Rencong was 39 years old.

3. Combat ability

The fighting ability of a warship is largely determined by the weapons on board the ship. Because this frigate is an old type, the hull has not used SIGMA technology like modern ships today. So it can't refract the opponent's radar electromagnetic waves.

As a result, it is very easy to detect by the opponent.The Sea Sparrow Anti-Air Missile is only 20 kilometers away. Far behind when compared to the Mika missiles on KRI Marta and our new KRI Ngu PKR where the distance is 40 km.

The Anti-Submarine Torpedo (AKS) still uses the MK 32 Tube, so the torpedo used is still the TPO A 244 type. It is still far behind the torpedoes in the Indonesian Navy, namely the Black Shark Torpedo.

The main gun, cal 127 mm, is no longer used by warships in the world today. It's outdated, maybe even the bullets are hard to get. If something goes wrong, for example the barrel of a cannon is bent due to heat, it's hard to get a replacement.

4. Operating costs

For aging frigates, in one hour of sailing, at least 1500 liters of diesel fuel are needed. In 1 day = 24 hours = 1500 X 24 = 36,000 liters of diesel.

With a 2/3:1/3 month operation pattern, which is 2/3 months sailing and 1/3 month leaning on the pier. So 2/3 months = 20 days of sailing will require 36,000 x 20 = 720,000 liters of diesel.

If one liter of diesel costs Rp. 5,000, then to sail for 20 days it takes 720,000 x Rp. 5,000 = Rp. 3,600,000,000. It's just fuel. For lubricating oil, its use is usually 5 percent of fuel use, which is 720,000 x 5 percent = 36,000 liters of lubricating oil.

If the price of one liter of lubricating oil is Rp. 10,000, then for lubricating oil it takes 36,000 x Rp. 10,000 = Rp. 360,000,000. So the total budget needed for 20 days of sailing for the engine alone is a minimum of IDR 3,600,000,000 + 360,000,000 = IDR 3,960,000,000.

If in one 3-month operation there are 60 sailing days, then it takes 60 x 3,960,000,000 = Rp. 237,600,000,000. As for the ship leaning on the pier, 10 percent of the usage while sailing is Rp. 23,760.000.000, so the total cost for fuel and lubricating oil for 3 months of operation is Rp. for fuel and lubricating oil only.

So if one year = 4 x 261,360. 000000 = IDR 1,045,440,000,000 (more than one trillion). Not to mention the fuel filters, lubricating oil filters, which are sure to be very expensive, because they are used on old engines.

It can be seen how wasteful the use of the budget is when we use old ships. I also calculate this with the size of the most efficient use of fuel.

I once served on a ship that used up to 5000 liters of fuel. Not to mention the cost of buying paint, cleaning tools and others.

From the four sizes it is very clear that this Maestrale class frigate does not deserve to be called "modernization". Because considering his old age, 43 years is no longer worthy to be categorized as an effort to "modernize" defense equipment. The ship to be purchased is outdated, just waiting for it to sink.

What to expect with an old ship if you don't want to be called a "bangkotan" like this? Trembling? No sense. Even if it is hit by waves in the EEZ, this ship will no longer be able to. The KRI Nanggala that sank was made in 1979, and now I want to buy the 1978 one.

Its operation also requires a very large budget, at least for one year more than Rp1 trillion.

Some say they will be retrofitted. From existing experience, retrovit is redundant. What can be retrofitted is only limited weapon systems. But it's impossible to retrofit to improve buoyancy and sailing ability.

No matter how great the weapon system installed, without sufficient buoyancy and sailing capability there will be no benefit.

With a 43-year-old machine, it is certain that there will be a lot of problems. Many spare parts are no longer produced. So it is very possible that the ship will spend more time tied to the dock than sailing to guard the ocean.

To live 12 hours continuously is already grateful. So even for patrols, this ship certainly cannot be expected. This has already happened with the ships in the Indonesian Navy at this time. Many Navy ships that were built in the 1978-1980s were hanging out tied to the dock and could no longer sail due to a shortage of spare parts.

Judging from the minimum budget needed to sail the ship, which is Rp. 1,045,440,000,000 in a year, it is very possible that the arrival of the Maestrale-class frigate will increase the number of ships tied to the dock.

It's really unfortunate that my Navy, if it is "modernized" with ships that are "old bangkotan". Maybe only in Indonesia there is "modernization" with ships that are already old.

Laksamana Muda TNI (Purn.) Soleman B. Ponto, ST, MH.: Kepala Badan Intelijen Strategis, 2011-2013

-----------------------------------------------------------

it's sad to see this coming from our veteran mouth ....

he wish for maestrale to carry a blackshark torpedo ......... even all modern frigate use triple tube
324mm standad for anti submarine torpedo

Well in some point I Can Agree with him, but atmost to bring this "penggiringan opini yg sesat" relates to the procurement and specs (we bought old maestrale? Comparing Aspide with Mica 40km?)

Is he outdated with the news or have some agenda? ‍♂

 

[Gary]

My spec for the Maestrale:

Weaps:

- 1x 76mm oto breda (could be cannibalized from decommissioned V.Speijk)

- 2x quad canister Exocet replacing the Otomat

- at least a single 30mm autocannon in the port+starboard side, better to be similar with that already operated onboard the pc-40 class.

- 2x triple 324mm torpedo (again could be cannibalized MK.32 launcher from the V.Speijk) or buy brand new B515 launcher

- 1x sextuple mistral launcher to replace the Sea Sparrows.


Sensors:

- 1x FLIR
- 1x LPI Radars
- 1x Smart S-MK2 or Thales MW08
- Tacticos CMS
- new ECM+ESM

This kind of interim config is good enough for patrol.

 

[Ravager]

Well in some point I Can Agree with him, but atmost to bring this "penggiringan opini yg sesat" relates to the procurement and specs (we bought old maestrale? Comparing Aspide with Mica 40km?)

Is he outdated with the news or have some agenda? ‍♂

Either that or he is allready a lost cause out of senility .

 

[Madokafc]

My spec for the Maestrale:

Weaps:

- 1x 76mm oto breda (could be cannibalized from decommissioned V.Speijk)

- 2x quad canister Exocet replacing the Otomat

- at least a single 30mm autocannon in the port+starboard side, better to be similar with that already operated onboard the pc-40 class.

- 2x triple 324mm torpedo (again could be cannibalized MK.32 launcher from the V.Speijk) or buy brand new B515 launcher

- 1x sextuple mistral launcher to replace the Sea Sparrows.


Sensors:

- 1x FLIR
- 1x LPI Radars
- 1x Smart S-MK2 or Thales MW08
- Tacticos CMS
- new ECM+ESM

This kind of interim config is good enough for patrol.

Van Speijk Cannon is much older than my mother (sixty or seventy production line) and her 127 mm Cannon is good as it is for any roles

 

[Gary]

Van Speijk Cannon is much older than my mother (sixty or seventy production line) and her 127 mm Cannon is good as it is for any roles

Who knows, Navy is not that familiar with 127mm ammo. They could decide to retain the original gun or they could replace it.

 

[Madokafc]

Who knows, Navy is not that familiar with 127mm ammo. They could decide to retain the original gun or they could replace it.

They would move on to larger caliber gun as they long acknowledge 76 mm can't do shit for Shore bombardment

 

[joedhie2k]

i thougt maestrale will just be a stop gap for ASW ships as Parchims really got underspec

 

[R4duga]

Well in some point I Can Agree with him, but atmost to bring this "penggiringan opini yg sesat" relates to the procurement and specs (we bought old maestrale? Comparing Aspide with Mica 40km?)

Is he outdated with the news or have some agenda? ‍♂

the variant of mica with 40km range a.k.a mica ng is only available and on production for 2026 .

 

[lastlarst]

If Maestrale Just stop-gap, what is the next main ASW then? Is there any progress about Mogami?

 

[wekiweko]

I wouldn't waste my time listening some retired TNI AL admiral ranting about acquisition. First and foremost, what did they do re modernization of TNI AL when they are active duty? Nothing, other than buying flashy operational cars, but that does not count except when their cars are used as naval munition. And we can also note some stupid remarks, like the 127 mm being pointed out.

 

[joedhie2k]

If Maestrale Just stop-gap, what is the next main ASW then? Is there any progress about Mogami?

yea i tought it will be the mogamis.. so AAW is iver, GP frigate is fremm+PKR, and ASW will be mogamis
luhut happy, wowo happy, PAL happy, formillers happy... everybody happy

 

[archwings]

yea i tought it will be the mogamis.. so AAW is iver, GP frigate is fremm+PKR, and ASW will be mogamis
luhut happy, wowo happy, PAL happy, formillers happy... everybody happy

using mogami as an asw platform doesn't make sense beacuse it's just general purpose frigate, why not opt for more specialized asw fremm?

 

[joedhie2k]

well the task can be divided anyway depending on equipment installed.. just more ships bought then more parties get happy

 

[Ravager]

using mogami as an asw platform doesn't make sense beacuse it's just general purpose frigate, why not opt for more specialized asw fremm?

I tend to.think on more of time lines . Spread much of work in every possible sources we could find hence more paralel and quicker result . The downsides is how we could fill the massive job slot soon to be avalaible and train the proper crew in these short time in between .

 

[wekiweko]

yea i tought it will be the mogamis.. so AAW is iver, GP frigate is fremm+PKR, and ASW will be mogamis
luhut happy, wowo happy, PAL happy, formillers happy... everybody happy

can we get the FREMM with that rotating trapezoidal radar? I'm obsessed with that radar wkwkwk

 

[joedhie2k]

can we get the FREMM with that rotating trapezoidal radar? I'm obsessed with that radar wkwkwk

what a weird fetish wkwkwkwkwk
IMO FREMM will be vanilla spec to chase ease of procurement and because i'm guessing AAW will be to Iver which has bigger displacement anyway

1st ship must be ready for parade (and presidential campaign) ASAP