Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

JATOSINT 

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Anyway, 120 of this, all armed with NSM, will likely become a strong deterrent against any foreign surface fleet if they decide to sail too close to our coast.
If we are talking about capable adversaries, why do they even need to sail close to our coast (12NM), at least during the early phase of the war, when their long-range strike capability allow them just to sit inside or even outside our EEZ
 
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Madokafc

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If we are talking about capable adversaries, why do they even want to sail close to our coast (12NM), at least during the early phase of the war, when their long-range strike capability allow them just to sit inside or even outside our EEZ

That's exactly what i mean, nowadays there is many Navy and air force in the region Fielded capable platform able to launch long range Cruise Missiles and AShM to perform saturation attack from over the horizon.

To name a few in the region is, Australia, China, USA, India, South Korea etc.
 

deadlast

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After the submarine is carried onto the barge using SPMT then the barge is moved to the nearby dry dock(if I am not wrong), but how the submarine is put to the water? Submerging the barge?
What do you think @Anmdt

Now I see why the new shiplift is needed. It is safer, faster and easier.
The barge were pulled to the dry dock, in the dry dock the sub were rolled down using SPMT from the barge to the dry dock, then they flood the dry dock and pulled the barge out, and float the sub from dry dock back to sub assembly building pier via tugboats.
 

Umigami

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PT PAL - NG Mou signing
 

HellFireIndo

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If we are talking about capable adversaries, why do they even need to sail close to our coast (12NM), at least during the early phase of the war, when their long-range strike capability allow them just to sit inside or even outside our EEZ
Firing these things is not easy, there will obviously be a delay between the control station, the munition being fired, and the target. They are somewhat consistently useful against stationary targets, but not so much for the mobile one. That is why the US, which used to rely on cruise missiles fired from ships to do missile strikes and targeted killing, switched over to using drones against personnel and mobile targets. Cruise missiles and bigger ones like ballistic missiles substituted the role of "heavy bomber" whose target is infrastructure, not enemy fleet. If long-range missiles are the solution to everything then why does China still pursue aircraft carrier capability? obviously, there's a capability gap there, so long-range missiles, still cannot substitute the role of the surface fleet, as in this age contact, "mass", and proximity apparently still matter despite the advances in munition technology.

Even in a permissive tactical environment whose adversary has no anti-air capability, the US still won't rely on cruise missiles. So why do we assume long-range strike capability is a magic bullet with no weakness? that could single-handedly win a war? I wouldn't assume that tbh. So rather than exaggerating the capability of potential adversaries, let's think about how to counter them and with what.
 

JATOSINT 

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Firing these things is not easy, there will obviously be a delay between the control station, the munition being fired, and the target. They are somewhat consistently useful against stationary targets, but not so much for the mobile one. That is why the US, which used to rely on cruise missiles fired from ships to do missile strikes and targeted killing, switched over to using drones against personnel and mobile targets. Cruise missiles and bigger ones like ballistic missiles substituted the role of "heavy bomber" whose target is infrastructure, not enemy fleet. If long-range missiles are the solution to everything then why does China still pursue aircraft carrier capability? obviously, there's a capability gap there, so long-range missiles, still cannot substitute the role of the surface fleet, as in this age contact, "mass", and proximity apparently still matter despite the advances in munition technology.

Even in a permissive tactical environment whose adversary has no anti-air capability, the US still won't rely on cruise missiles. So why do we assume long-range strike capability is a magic bullet with no weakness? that could single-handedly win a war? I wouldn't assume that tbh. So rather than exaggerating the capability of potential adversaries, let's think about how to counter them and with what.
My question is more about the platform and tactic/strategy, not the AShM itself

And since we are talking about naval warfare and you use the US as an example, here is a question:

Is USN currently, or in the future, operating hundreds of fast missile boats?
 

FPXAllen

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In all honesty, i didn't really like the concept of Antasena as a missile boat, keep those thing close to the shore and strait for patrol and anti piracy mission.
We're assuming that the "fast missile boat" mentioned in the TNI-AL press release was Antasena which either can be true or not. However given the size of the missile, we can be sure that it can be fitted to other platform like KCR-60 and so on.

Re: Antasena, I believe it can do its job most effectively in and around our littoral area (i.e. not too far from the shore). Given that the cannon armed version must be within visual range from its target to use its gun, a missile armed one can deliver more punch from a far greater distance.

Of course, for this version to be effective, we'll also need some kind of long range detection methods either by coastal and airborne radars, satelitte, our submarines shadowing enemy forces at sea, and so on.
If we are talking about capable adversaries, why do they even need to sail close to our coast (12NM), at least during the early phase of the war, when their long-range strike capability allow them just to sit inside or even outside our EEZ
That's exactly what i mean, nowadays there is many Navy and air force in the region Fielded capable platform able to launch long range Cruise Missiles and AShM to perform saturation attack from over the horizon.

To name a few in the region is, Australia, China, USA, India, South Korea etc.
I didn't wrote my post earlier with the intention for us to deploy fast missile boats as our first line of defense. In case of an all-out war against technologically advanced adversaries, we can almost guarantee that our first line of defense (that is large surface combatants, long range fighters etc) will be hard pressed to find and destroy such threats if they launched their attacks while they're not even inside our EEZ.

While their long-range attacks will be effective against our fixed installations, small and mobile forces will be much harder to detect and destroy especially if they can use their size advantage to hide themselves from enemy's various detection methods and attempts to find them.

In cases where we can no longer prevent enemy invasion fleet from entering our territory, as long as we can maintain some kind of long range detection as I mentioned earlier in this reply, fast missile boats armed with AShM can come into play to atleast try to cause a lot of damages to the enemy's invasion fleet before they can even see our coastline.
 

FPXAllen

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Is USN currently, or in the future, operating hundreds of fast missile boats?
We can't compare our navy to both USN and PLAN. They're oranges to our apple although we can somehow draw a parallel with PLAN since they're also deploying fast missile boats in large numbers.
 

NEKO

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The barge were pulled to the dry dock, in the dry dock the sub were rolled down using SPMT from the barge to the dry dock, then they flood the dry dock and pulled the barge out, and float the sub from dry dock back to sub assembly building pier via tugboats.
I see.
The dry dock is long enough for that? Considering the barge and submarine length + the height of the barge (that will affect the angle of the ramp).
 

NEKO

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"MoU kerja sama di bidang research and development antara PT PAL dengan Naval Group untuk pembelian dua kapal selam Scorpene dengan AIP (Air-independent Propulsion) beserta persenjataan dan suku cadang serta latihan," ujar Prabowo dalam keterangan pers.

Indonesia will get 2 scorpene with AIP.
 

Van Kravchenko

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PT PAL - NG Mou signing

dan sekali lagi terjadi salip menyalip di tikungan terakhir
 

deadlast

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I see.
The dry dock is long enough for that? Considering the barge and submarine length + the height of the barge (that will affect the angle of the ramp).
IIRC it was done with nearly empty dry dock (graving dock Semarang),
and correction it was not barge transfer the sub to dry dock then flood the dock to float the sub,

but barge enter dry dock, transfer sub to floating dock then the floating dock pulled out of dry dock, submerge itself to float the sub,

I got it mixed up with Cakra overhaul on the post before.
 

Van Kravchenko

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I think 08 always prefer Naval Group.
No clue if 🇫🇷 would push so hard. All of the time it's still push and pull between 🇩🇪 Type 214 and 🇰🇷 KSS.

But, cheer up guys. That PAL million US$ Submarine production facility will no longer empty in vain. Or at least 401 and 402 will have their replacement hence still faraway from half of 12 submarine target (myself expect around 20+ subs for IDNavy)
 

Jhie_Oeng

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yeaap.. i hope so..
there will be another contract for 3 , 4 and 5.. submarine..
 

NEKO

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IIRC it was done with nearly empty dry dock (graving dock Semarang),
and correction it was not barge transfer the sub to dry dock then flood the dock to float the sub,

but barge enter dry dock, transfer sub to floating dock then the floating dock pulled out of dry dock, submerge itself to float the sub,

I got it mixed up with Cakra overhaul on the post before.
I see thanks.
 

NEKO

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I hope France won't be stingy when we want to buy "new kind of missile".
 

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