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Madokafc

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You know, I usually answer this kind of question by saying, "observe and paid attention in how I do it. And after that it's your turn to try" or something along that line.

In theory yes bullpup design look more advantageous due to their barrel length in more compact overall package. However, in practice a service rifle or sidearm is an extension of your body. And for all-purpose & intent should be considered as part of your body. Which mean to reach a sufficient proficiency with any weapon, you need good muscle memory, meaning your hands & arm already know what parts of the weapons you touch without looking at it. Any proficient shooter / operator would also know how much ammo left in the magazine simply by holding the gun. All those are about muscle memory.

Back to bullpup design. All our soldiers were trained from the start using a conventional weapon. And that mean muscle memory is already stuck to conventional design. To change into bullpup would require to "unlearn" half of what already been learned. Not only that took time (and money for the training ammo) but when changing back from bullpup to conventional can't be done instantly as far as proficiency count.

As for bullpup design itself, shooting with bullpup mean the weapon action is on your face literally speaking, while on conventional design there is the stock that put some distance between your head (read : face) from the mechanical action of the gun.

Now I'm guessing you now thinking as "Why not training with bullpup from the start" right? The problem is, most rifle (battle rifle, long range rifle) are in conventional design (technical & practically reason). And the last thing any military want is for the men to "unlearn" what has been taught from the start just to take a speciality role. And that is the main reason why there are only few countries that equipping their soldier with bullpup.

In the end It doesn't matter what brand or type of weapon you use, they basically just a tool, what really count is the man behind the gun.

Not even the Israeli had favorable impression toward their excellent Made Tavor, and instead more to like to use their AR 15 families more with all of their faulties in the battlefield.

The bold part

Btw, the same thing can be said against our little brother Singapore, they are come from convenient places, always trained in restricted condition and never being put on the frontline parts with all of fog of war ascertain that. More than that, surely they cannot afford to do big style battle with big casualties like proper normal big countries. Not even they can reach determination like what Israeli had considering much of their Armed Forces population is come from certain ethnic background. Thus even though currently they have more technology edge and style they are never being in our threat perception and convenient choice as Indonesia natural allies in the region.

Btw let's take a pray for all of accident victims recently
antarafoto-basarnas-perpanjang-pencarian-korban-sriwijaya-air-150121-adm-6.jpg
antarafoto-basarnas-perpanjang-pencarian-korban-sriwijaya-air-150121-adm-1_1.jpg
 

schuimpjes

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Screenshot_2021-01-16-18-47-10-223_com.google.android.apps.docs.jpg

Sexy Cold War history here... I was ever uploaded about it in Reddit, but maybe never here.

SATIRE

-US: Dutch, i got intel from U-2 Squadron in Taiwan that Soviet deploy their submarines to Bitung, North Sulawesi.

-Dutch: Damn it. I have a goosebumps now.

And at the end, that was enough to deter the Dutch.
 
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Van Kravchenko

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You know, I usually answer this kind of question by saying, "observe and paid attention in how I do it. And after that it's your turn to try" or something along that line.

In theory yes bullpup design look more advantageous due to their barrel length in more compact overall package. However, in practice a service rifle or sidearm is an extension of your body. And for all-purpose & intent should be considered as part of your body. Which mean to reach a sufficient proficiency with any weapon, you need good muscle memory, meaning your hands & arm already know what parts of the weapons you touch without looking at it. Any proficient shooter / operator would also know how much ammo left in the magazine simply by holding the gun. All those are about muscle memory.

Back to bullpup design. All our soldiers were trained from the start using a conventional weapon. And that mean muscle memory is already stuck to conventional design. To change into bullpup would require to "unlearn" half of what already been learned. Not only that took time (and money for the training ammo) but when changing back from bullpup to conventional can't be done instantly as far as proficiency count.

As for bullpup design itself, shooting with bullpup mean the weapon action is on your face literally speaking, while on conventional design there is the stock that put some distance between your head (read : face) from the mechanical action of the gun.

Now I'm guessing you now thinking as "Why not training with bullpup from the start" right? The problem is, most rifle (battle rifle, long range rifle) are in conventional design (technical & practically reason). And the last thing any military want is for the men to "unlearn" what has been taught from the start just to take a speciality role. And that is the main reason why there are only few countries that equipping their soldier with bullpup.

In the end It doesn't matter what brand or type of weapon you use, they basically just a tool, what really count is the man behind the gun.
I never think to that basic thing actually, yes am agree with you.

Especially our training rifle are come from M1, even M16 are still service at firing range practice.

And yes, conventional design rifle has action in front of the stock, meanwhile the action bulpup are placed under the buttstock.

Other than the things above, conventional rifle were has simple mechanism compare to bulpup, leading to ease of maintenance at the field.

Am glad actually, the regular infantry nowadays were geared up
Properly, although still lack night vision goggle, and optical device for the rifle.

Anyway, is there any news about subs, boat, or even fighter procurement since last month ?
 

trishna_amrta

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Not even the Israeli had favorable impression toward their excellent Made Tavor, and instead more to like to use their AR 15 families more with all of their faulties in the battlefield.
Tavor mix 2 ingredients that shouldn't be mixed, which is mixing bullpup + long piston. Those two should never be mix. Not to mention the added bonus of getting "Tavor Face". I strongly doubt even someone as pretty such as Gal Gadot would still look pretty after getting Tavor Face.

Btw, the same thing can be said against our little brother Singapore, they are come from convenient places, always trained in restricted condition and never being put on the frontline parts with all of fog of war ascertain that. More than that, surely they cannot afford to do big style battle with big casualties like proper normal big countries. Not even they can reach determination like what Israeli had considering much of their Armed Forces population is come from certain ethnic background. Thus even though currently they have more technology edge and style they are never being in our threat perception and convenient choice as Indonesia natural allies in the region.
Those Singkek are video gamer NOT soldier. Most of them are delusional enough to believe that training = reality. For even the best sim grade Tactical Shooter game such as Ground Branch or ARMA series still unable to simulate the effect of mental stress and physical fatigue, more so since most of them aren't even accustomed to have any activities outside air-conditioned room. If you notice the writing / post that came from Singkek video gamer eeech sorry I mean their so-called soldiers. The tone of it are always textbook reading rather than something that came from personal experience & know-how.
 

trishna_amrta

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I never think to that basic thing actually, yes am agree with you.

Especially our training rifle are come from M1, even M16 are still service at firing range practice.
All infantry are all about fundamentals. And so far we had done very good in that aspect. However, there still a serious need for modern equipment (and related training) to act as force multiplier.

Mix of M1 + M16 is excellent for training the fundamental. M16 is lightweight and easy to shoot, while M1 for training marksmanship.
 

NEKO

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View attachment 12025 View attachment 12026 View attachment 12027 View attachment 12028

Prajurit Batalyon Intai Amfibi-1 Korps Marinir TNI AL (Yontaifib-1) duduk di dalam ruangan dekompresi (chamber decompression) milik Yontaifib-1 usai melakukan penyelaman dalam operasi SAR pesawat Sriwijaya Air PK-CLC nomor penerbangan SJ 182 di Pantai Tanjung Kait, Tangerang, Banten, Minggu (17/1/2021). Ruangan tersebut digunakan oleh para penyelam untuk menghilangkan kadar nitrogen dalam tubuh untuk menghindari terjadinya dekompresi. ANTARA FOTO/Muhammad Adimaja/wsj.

Which ship carry this decompression chamber?
Or its on land? Delay lama dong
 

this is crunch

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i mean, iver huitfeld program is different contract and not related to the new frigate tender right?
 

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If we really interested with used La Fayette class is this meant that there's no large combatan after iver like Fremm or 30FFM!!?? if it is, that would be suck big time
 

NEKO

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There is new tender?

Isn't the tender already been won by OMT? Is not like we are having new tender for new type of ship.

Its just that suddenly Japan come with lucrative offer, idk I am as confused as you are, if i am not wrong @Madokafc said that Iver deal won't be affected with 30ffm( kalo jadi).

If we really interested with used La Fayette class is this meant that there's no large combatan after iver like Fremm or 30FFM!!?? if it is, that would be suck big time
I believe its for interim ready frigate. We still can get large combatant, when? Who know.
 

Madokafc

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There is new tender?

Isn't the tender already been won by OMT? Is not like we are having new tender for new type of ship.

Its just that suddenly Japan come with lucrative offer, idk I am as confused as you are, if i am not wrong @Madokafc said that Iver deal won't be affected with 30ffm( kalo jadi).


I believe its for interim ready frigate. We still can get large combatant, when? Who know.

As far as i know, MEF completion is waaaay behind the schedule, there is no way to complete them with current time schedule if you all wanna to get brand new warships or fighter. Thanks to certain someone
 

Anmdt

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There is new tender?

Isn't the tender already been won by OMT? Is not like we are having new tender for new type of ship.

Its just that suddenly Japan come with lucrative offer, idk I am as confused as you are, if i am not wrong @Madokafc said that Iver deal won't be affected with 30ffm( kalo jadi).


I believe its for interim ready frigate. We still can get large combatant, when? Who know.
Probably Indonesia will make the first payment on IH frigate and Denmark will start to re-design it as requested.
I am still unsure if Indonesia has officially shared the requirements on design, since some was claiming Indonesian engineers to take place in re-design process to be trained and receive know/how ,with Denmark yet,but payment is made to be in this year according to what shared in this forum about a budget declaration so i assume it wasn't a new tender but actually budget allocation for first installment of IH Frigate (1/6th of total budget).
If we really interested with used La Fayette class is this meant that there's no large combatan after iver like Fremm or 30FFM!!?? if it is, that would be suck big time
Japanese actually came with great offers (incomparable to Italian or French offers), a little has been spilling to the public but looks like someone is pressurizing officials to not accept the Japanese offer.
The offer from Japanese is, in long term, greater than just locally building ships.

Probably the officials are waiting additional offers or replies from Navantia, Germany, Korea, Damen to conclude a decision.
 

Madokafc

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Probably Indonesia will make the first payment on IH frigate and Denmark will start to re-design it as requested.
I am still unsure if Indonesia has officially shared the requirements on design, since some was claiming Indonesian engineers to take place in re-design process to be trained and receive know/how ,with Denmark yet,but payment is made to be in this year according to what shared in this forum about a budget declaration so i assume it wasn't a new tender but actually budget allocation for first installment of IH Frigate (1/6th of total budget).

Japanese actually came with great offers (incomparable to Italian or French offers), a little has been spilling to the public but looks like someone is pressurizing officials to not accept the Japanese offer.
The offer from Japanese is, in long term, greater than just locally building ships.

Probably the officials are waiting additional offers or replies from Navantia, Germany, Korea, Damen to conclude a decision.

From my sources, for MEF III Frigates project ( you got it right, FREMM, FFM30 and so on is contender for MEF III projects) they are not intended to conclude the projects this year, at least two or three year from now then we can see the winner and the completion dates Will be much further around 2028-2030. What they intended to press the schedule is the completion of MEF II projects, namely two plus (option of two) AAW Frigates in which OMT Itver based class as the winner, two (plus two option) OPV/Missiles Corvettes program, and MoD want to get one or two more second hand Frigates as part of interim program to fill the assets of newly built Third Fleets and serve as their main surface warships combatant. For MEF III projects, they are trying to push the dates earlier, but still there is many thing they need to sort off.
 

Anmdt

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From my sources, for MEF III Frigates project ( you got it right, FREMM, FFM30 and so on is contender for MEF III projects) they are not intended to conclude the projects this year, at least two or three year from now then we can see the winner and the completion dates Will be much further around 2028-2030. What they intended to press the schedule is the completion of MEF II projects, namely two plus (option of two) AAW Frigates in which OMT Itver based class as the winner, two (plus two option) OPV/Missiles Corvettes program, and MoD want to get one or two more second hand Frigates as part of interim program to fill the assets of newly built Third Fleets and serve as their main surface warships combatant. For MEF III projects, they are trying to push the dates earlier, but still there is many thing they need to sort off.
IH frigate won't be completed before 2025 i think, at least if it goes with the current speed the design completion can be expected to be at 2022 or even farther, and 2 frigates can be completed by 2025-2026 and delays can be expected due to being constructed in Indonesia right away. (2 reasons, the ships will be different than current IH, it is usual to expect delays in first ship of the class due to new sensors being installed,in addition to not being constructed at the shipyard which was experienced on it)
But what makes sense to me is expanding IH design further to host long and short hulls, and aiming additional ships of IH variants for the third phase. Indonesia will have IP rights of design and certain abilities will be gained by ToT from Danish. If the ship is designed to be flexible (not talking about Stanflex like modularity but rather Fremm like)

A second hand frigate could be only an interim solution as a training vessel (There are actually cool vessels to be offered) to adapt larger surface assets (for admirals)
It is for sure, source of the second hand frigates will be the winners of the last phase.
My wishes are rather on side of adapting IH for entirity of the needs and accepting Japanese solution to pave a way to greater collaboration on subsystems.
 

NEKO

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From my sources, for MEF III Frigates project ( you got it right, FREMM, FFM30 and so on is contender for MEF III projects) they are not intended to conclude the projects this year, at least two or three year from now then we can see the winner and the completion dates Will be much further around 2028-2030. What they intended to press the schedule is the completion of MEF II projects, namely two plus (option of two) AAW Frigates in which OMT Itver based class as the winner, two (plus two option) OPV/Missiles Corvettes program, and MoD want to get one or two more second hand Frigates as part of interim program to fill the assets of newly built Third Fleets and serve as their main surface warships combatant. For MEF III projects, they are trying to push the dates earlier, but still there is many thing they need to sort off.
We are already at phase 3 but phase 2 miss the scheduled target and we still try to finish it.

2030? Mef III only until 2024 lol, ngarep aja bisa teken kontrak sebelum fase 3 berakhir, Molor yang luar biasa, well its indonesia after all harap maklum. If the iver deal still moving slowly it will affect mef 3 frigate.

Even the Iver is doubtful can be completed before the year 2024 ended? Ck ck ck
 

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