Historical Indus Valley Civilization Research papers and Theories.

[Joe Shearer]

Would you suggest any research papers?

Yes, with the greatest pleasure. Please wait for the evening.

 

[sarthak]

I sincerely recommend that you do some serious reading.

For genetic studies I am absolutely postive ivc forms the majority of the portion of genetics of modern South Asians.

Rare Ancient DNA Provides Window Into a 5,000-Year-Old South Asian Civilization

The Indus Valley Civilization flourished alongside Mesopotamia and Egypt, but the early society remains shrouded in mystery

www.smithsonianmag.com

 

[SavageKing456]

Proof of fire worship by the people of ivc
They're more like vedic people.
Like like vedic people worshipped agni

 

[OverTheHorizon]

Clearly the people who live in Sindh and Gujarat are the major descendants of the Saraswathi civilization. By the way no one knows what the Indus was originally called by the settlers there. This is because we are unable to decipher their script. Indian origin researchers in the US are using AI algorithms to try and decipher but have not been successful so far. More excavations and literature from those times are needed to solve a lot of the mysteries as to why the civilization just faded out. And why it did not evolve into kingdoms ruled by a dynasty of kings, like it happened everywhere else. Also, this is a primary reason, people of Sindh (and Balochista) are more tolerant and like being part of India, as they know where their ancestry lies.

 

[SavageKing456]

That's true
Not just this , This ties up with the fact that nearly 80% of the 1400+ Sindhu Valley settlements exist in India today & are spread in the thickest density between the Sindhu and the Ganga. (900+) . And Most Indians receive nearly 45-55% of their ancestry from it.

The drying up of saraswati river made the people move further from west to east.
Obviously the civilization was big with good amount of people,they won't disappear and migrated to east when it dried up.

 

[Levina]

Your tall claims to indus valley civilisation are truly ridiculous. There are are 1400 ivc sites 925 ( majority ) of them in india, oldest site bhiranna is ij india, biggest site rakhigari is in india, only site with a harbour is in india, newesr ivc sites are in india. Also only hindus have any cultural legacy of the indus Valley left today there many hindu dieties that are non vedic prime example being that of shiva. Also indus valley civilsation was centered around the now seasonal ghaggar hakra river. .

Are you Sarthak Ganguly of PDF???

 

[OverTheHorizon]

View attachment 39547
That's true
Not just this , This ties up with the fact that nearly 80% of the 1400+ Sindhu Valley settlements exist in India today & are spread in the thickest density between the Sindhu and the Ganga. (900+) . And Most Indians receive nearly 45-55% of their ancestry from it.

View attachment 39546
The drying up of saraswati river made the people move further from west to east.
Obviously the civilization was big with good amount of people,they won't disappear and migrated to east when it dried up.

This does not still fill in knowledge gaps such as what was the Indus actually known as during Vedic times or earlier. And was that river flowing in the current course or a different one? This is the problem we have. Too much of the civilization’s features are shrouded in mystery as we cannot decipher the script. Plus we just don’t have enough volume of literature written by the native people, unlike the Egyptians who documented everything and did enough so their script can be deciphered. Hopefully one day someone will crack the code. And we can all learn about this glorious Indian civilization thoroughly and accuratel.

 

[SavageKing456]

This does not still fill in knowledge gaps such as what was the Indus actually known as during Vedic times or earlier. And was that river flowing in the current course or a different one? This is the problem we have. Too much of the civilization’s features are shrouded in mystery as we cannot decipher the script. Plus we just don’t have enough volume of literature written by the native people, unlike the Egyptians who documented everything and did enough so their script can be deciphered. Hopefully one day someone will crack the code. And we can all learn about this glorious Indian civilization thoroughly and accuratel.

Yeah lots need to be research to confirm whatever has been found out.
That is true as well that sanskrit was more verbally spoken than written
Could be possible that sanskrit was just used for ritual purpose and transfering knowledge of vedas while for communication tamil was used?
Just my speculations

 

[Levina]

would Pakistan become 'halal' for you. A name means nothing. So according to you mistake we made was we should have found a name from antiquity - say Gandhara and it would be all okay? United Kingdom has no history either, neither does such a manufactured name like USA. These are just names. As a people, as a land we have a heritage that goes further back then most of the world including you guys.

And thatr darned thing that was dissolved in 1947 was a British, imperial, colonial project. Made by British bullets and bayonets. Ruled by British officials. With a British flag fluterring. The only thing my ancestor and your ancestor share is for a short while [98 years] both were prisoners. Nothing more. Nothing less. And we broke from that prison in 1947.

View attachment 9933

Ummmm
So let's start with the word HALAL.
ICYMI-- Halal comes from the Sanskrit word Halahala which means poison or a black mass. It was created from the sea when Devas and Asuras churned it (see Samudra manthan) in order to obtain Amrita, the nectar of immortality.
Later Shiva consumed it to protect the world--- is what the folklore of Indus valley suggests.

So now coming to why I mentioned Shiva---

This is a picture of Shivalingam found at Kalibangan and Harappa, Indus valley sites or as I call it Saraswati Sindhu civilisation.

But then Shivalingam was not limited to Asia.
Since in your post above you're mentioned United Kingdom, I must show you this pic of Stone of destiny from the Hill of Tara in Ireland.

The gist is--- Sanatana was followed by inhabitants of IVC/ SSC sites and it was followed by people across the world at one point in time. Tagging: @sarthak


Source: https://resonantnews.com/2018/02/01/dholavira-the-zenith-of-harappan-town-planning/

 

[SavageKing456]

Ummmm
So let's start with the word HALAL.
ICYMI-- Halal comes from the Sanskrit word Halahala which means poison or a black mass. It was created from the sea when Devas and Asuras churned it (see Samudra manthan) in order to obtain Amrita, the nectar of immortality.
Later Shiva consumed it to protect the world--- is what the folklore of Indus valley suggests.

So now coming to why I mentioned Shiva---

This is a picture of Shivalingam found at Kalibangan and Harappa, Indus valley sites or as I call it Saraswati Sindhu civilisation.

View attachment 39554


But then Shivalingam was not limited to Asia.
Since in your post above you're mentioned United Kingdom, I must show you this pic of Stone of destiny from the Hill of Tara in Ireland.

View attachment 39555
The gist is--- Sanatana was followed by inhabitants of IVC/ SSC sites and it was followed by people across the world at one point in time. Tagging: @sarthak

Common misconception of people that the god shiva is non-vedic
They often share hymns of rigved claiming he is mentioned as "auspicious"
Rig Veda Book 10: Hymn 92

सतोमं वो अद्य रुद्राय शिक्वसे कषयद्वीराय नमसादिदिष्टन |
येभिः शिवः सववानेवयावभिर्दिवःसिषक्ति सवयशा निकामभिः ||
stomaṃ vo adya rudrāya śikvase kṣayadvīrāya namasādidiṣṭana |
yebhiḥ śivaḥ svavānevayāvabhirdivaḥsiṣakti svayaśā nikāmabhiḥ ||

Meaning: HYMN XCII. Viśvedevas.

With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

This is well known that hymns in vedas are used for praising
The god shiv just like vishnu,brahma has many names each name has it's specific qualities
The below hymn uses word "Shiva" as praising the auspicious quality of the deity.
That doesn't mean that god shiva is non-vedic.
Both rudra and shiva are the same.

Hence those who claim that shiva is not mentioned in vedas and shiva is non-vedic deity are totally wrong.
The ivc people worshipped both formless shiva(lingam swaroop) and form shiva(pashupati)

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes, with the greatest pleasure. Please wait for the evening.

I have to inform you, with the greatest regret, that I have been very ill for months, due to multiple reasons, and have just started getting back to an ability to get around the house without collapsing. I hope to be in improved condition over the next few weeks. Please bear with me.

 

[Joe Shearer]

For genetic studies I am absolutely postive ivc forms the majority of the portion of genetics of modern South Asians.

Rare Ancient DNA Provides Window Into a 5,000-Year-Old South Asian Civilization

The Indus Valley Civilization flourished alongside Mesopotamia and Egypt, but the early society remains shrouded in mystery

www.smithsonianmag.com

The correct position is that the genetic profile of the inhabitants of the IVC has merged with the original hunter-gatherers of the north, mixed with traces of people whose DNA matches that of steppe dwellers from the Andronovo Culture.

This has led to the genetic profile referred to as Ancestral North Indian. There is a huge gulf, and we shall come to that.

In the south, it is thought that the people who abandoned the declining IVC settlements similarly intermarried with original hunter-gatherers, and formed the genetic profile known as Ancestral South Indian.

What has not been explored at any serious level is the different genetic profile of the belt of forest lands today gathered together as Chhatisgarh, Jharkhand, Bengal, Odisha, Assam and other parts of the north-east. These areas, in linguistic terms, show distinct signs of a sub-stratum of Dravidian words and grammatical extensions, and below even that, yet another sub-stratum of Austric languages, words and grammar alike (we refer to languages such as Mundari as Austric languages).

 

[Joe Shearer]

Clearly the people who live in Sindh and Gujarat are the major descendants of the Saraswathi civilization. By the way no one knows what the Indus was originally called by the settlers there. This is because we are unable to decipher their script. Indian origin researchers in the US are using AI algorithms to try and decipher but have not been successful so far. More excavations and literature from those times are needed to solve a lot of the mysteries as to why the civilization just faded out. And why it did not evolve into kingdoms ruled by a dynasty of kings, like it happened everywhere else. Also, this is a primary reason, people of Sindh (and Balochista) are more tolerant and like being part of India, as they know where their ancestry lies.

While there must be a significant contribution of the genetic profile of the IVC dwellers in the Sindh region, it is necessary to look up the huge numbers of migrants during the Indo-Greek, the Saka-Pahlava, the Kushana and the Hun periods. The Sakas, the Western Satraps, were only, first, weakened by the Satavahanas, and then uprooted entirely only by the Guptas, in fact, by their greatest military ruler, Samudra Gupta.

It is widely believed that the modern population of Gujarat, Rajasthan, and even population segments in the Punjab and Haryana - the Jats and Gujjars, in particular - may have been the descendants of these migrants, brought into Hinduism through various inclusive rituals - the Agnivansha is considered to have been a memory of these rites.

I am interested to know who these Indian origin researchers are, using algorithms to decipher the IVC language. As far as I know, the path-breaking work was - and is - by Asko Parpola. The use of the phrase the Saraswati civilisation is a typical attempt at appropriation of this culture, and has little or no basis in historical fact; there were a very large number of IVC settlements along the course of what is identified with the Saraswati - this is controversial - that is, the Ghaggra-Hakra (Hakra after it crosses over to modern-day Pakistan) course. As far as that is concerned, there are clearly two distinct references to the Saraswati in the Rg Veda itself; no doubt you are aware of this and of the difference between the two references.

There is no literature from the Indus Valley sites. None at all.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Common misconception of people that the god shiva is non-vedic
They often share hymns of rigved claiming he is mentioned as "auspicious"
Rig Veda Book 10: Hymn 92

Meaning: HYMN XCII. Viśvedevas.



This is well known that hymns in vedas are used for praising
The god shiv just like vishnu,brahma has many names each name has it's specific qualities
The below hymn uses word "Shiva" as praising the auspicious quality of the deity.
That doesn't mean that god shiva is non-vedic.
Both rudra and shiva are the same.

Hence those who claim that shiva is not mentioned in vedas and shiva is non-vedic deity are totally wrong.
The ivc people worshipped both formless shiva(lingam swaroop) and form shiva(pashupati)

Claiming, thousands of years after the event, that a god mentioned in the Rg Veda is another form of Siva, and that Siva was a god worshipped in the IVC is an old trope of the Hindutvavadi reinterpretation of Indian history. The links are so tenuous that it should be embarrassing to even bring it up.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ummmm
So let's start with the word HALAL.
ICYMI-- Halal comes from the Sanskrit word Halahala which means poison or a black mass. It was created from the sea when Devas and Asuras churned it (see Samudra manthan) in order to obtain Amrita, the nectar of immortality.
Later Shiva consumed it to protect the world--- is what the folklore of Indus valley suggests.

So now coming to why I mentioned Shiva---

This is a picture of Shivalingam found at Kalibangan and Harappa, Indus valley sites or as I call it Saraswati Sindhu civilisation.

View attachment 39554


But then Shivalingam was not limited to Asia.
Since in your post above you're mentioned United Kingdom, I must show you this pic of Stone of destiny from the Hill of Tara in Ireland.

View attachment 39555
The gist is--- Sanatana was followed by inhabitants of IVC/ SSC sites and it was followed by people across the world at one point in time. Tagging: @sarthak


Source: https://resonantnews.com/2018/02/01/dholavira-the-zenith-of-harappan-town-planning/

There is no evidence bearing out these fanciful suggestions, none whatever.

 

[Joe Shearer]

View attachment 39547
That's true
Not just this , This ties up with the fact that nearly 80% of the 1400+ Sindhu Valley settlements exist in India today & are spread in the thickest density between the Sindhu and the Ganga. (900+) . And Most Indians receive nearly 45-55% of their ancestry from it.

View attachment 39546
The drying up of saraswati river made the people move further from west to east.
Obviously the civilization was big with good amount of people,they won't disappear and migrated to east when it dried up.

Certainly, there was depopulation, and there might well have been popular movement from west to east. The dates matter; the nearest dates available are that the IVC existed between 3400 BCE and 1300 BCE, and that its period of maximal growth was perhaps 2400 BCE to 1900 BCE.

The Ghaggra-Hakra river course was certainly drying up long before that. Identifying this with one of the two distinct and different references in the Rg Veda is problematic, to say the least; this is one reason why historical and pre-historical revisionists try to push the date of the Rg Veda further and further back, as otherwise it is difficult to explain the reference to a surging river with flooding waters (one of the two references).

I am not sure what point is made by counting the number of sites and where they are located. As there is greater exploration, the assessment will change; when the original ruins were found, there was not even a suspicion that there was a second site, leave alone a number of other sites extending along the Indus and its tributaries. In this connection, the links between the Saraswati and the Indus are not clear; there has been a lot of speculation about it having carried the waters of the Yamuna with it to a confluence with the Indus, alternatively to fall into the sea, at that time, thought to be co-terminous with the present-day Rann of Kutch, at a point quite different from the Indus delta going into the Arabian Sea.

All that is clear is that there was an extensive civilisation, that remains a mystery to the modern world. Its extent is not fully mapped yet, and it is a fairly jingoistic endeavour to try to claim it entirely as a culture asset of the present-day Union of India, or consider it to be the origin of the later Indian culture and civilisation. This is entirely due to the reactionary school of historical and archaeological amateurs that has tried without success to establish these links for some forty odd years now.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Also aryan-dravidian theory is proven wrong,original inhabitants of IVC had similarities to the vedic hindus and some of so called "dravidians"

What Aryan-Dravidian theory is this? These are two groups of languages, and have nothing to do with ethnicity.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It is the newest study on the genetics of IVC. Quite a important inferences can be made from it about development of civilisation in Indian subcontinent and genetics of people living here

Ancient DNA Studies Untangle Genetic History of Indus River Valley Civilization

By sequencing an Indus Valley Civilization representative and related individuals, investigators learned more about the South Asian ancestry, farming history, and languages.

www.genomeweb.com

Some important quotes from the research paper.

Because the Iranian ancestry component appears to come from an ancient population that split from other Iranian populations more than 12,000 years ago — before farming was established in the Fertile Crescent — authors of the new studies reasoned that farming probably did not arrive in India as a result of migration by farming groups, but likely arose in parallel as previously reported in parts of Europe.

Meaning farming developed independently in india. There are further proof for this based on this genetics of farm animals in india. I can give links to those research papers if anybody is interested also it is possible development of agriculture in india preceded or at the very least occured in the same period as the fertile crescent.

About genetics

That data suggested that "after the fall of the IVC, several migrations into South Asia led to the formation of two distinct populations therein, one more ancestral to modern North Indians and the other more ancestral to modern South Asians," University of California at Santa Cruz ecology and evolutionary biology researchers Beth Shapiro and Nathan Schaefer, who were not involved in the studies, wrote in a related perspectives article in Science. "The ancestry of most present-day Indians is probably composed of these two populations along with a handful of others."

IVC population is the most prominent source of modern indian dna with component being 60 to 85 percent and steppe dna being 10 to 30 percent. Also there are proofs of IVC migration outside of india towards iran and central asia both genetic and archeological during the mature phase of IVC 2800bce to 2350 bce. Skeletons from east iran genetically similar to IVC for the time period and IVC settlement have been found up till afghanistan.

Fair enough. This is a balanced report.

 

[Joe Shearer]

My whole of the point that the Aryan-dravidian theory is pure crap created by British to divide India.
How am I "hindutva" member

That pure crap has been discarded around 80 years ago. The only ones who fall back on it are those who are flailing about to make points that have been dismissed decades ago. Specifically, these are people with an obsession with the Out Of India theory; no amount of contrary evidence will convince them.

That is why those who clutch onto the supposed Aryan-Dravidian divide, meaning an ethnic divide, have nothing to do with the well-researched position on these two names, but are merely politicising an academic issue.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Of course there is not we don't have much to go on to determine what they worshipped and neither can we understand the writings they left behind. But we do know these people would have coexsisted with Vedic Aryans and there are clear departures in brahminic Hinduism that came after Vedic Hinduism and other indo European religions but all historians do agree some aspects did drive from native belief systems maybe from ivc or perhaps other tribes that existed in india at the time. I only said so in response to captaan insinuating Hindus and Indians have nothing to with ivc in the end ivc is still the majority source of genetics in modern indians so they were our forefathers I think it was 60 to 85 percent of genes of Indians are derived from ivc in some study

Like the curate's egg, good in parts.

This part is NOT good:
"But we do know these people would have coexsisted with Vedic Aryans and there are clear departures in brahminic Hinduism that came after Vedic Hinduism and other indo European religions but all historians do agree some aspects did drive from native belief systems maybe from ivc or perhaps other tribes that existed in india at the time. "

There is no evidence for co-existence. You yourself have gone on to say that there might have been introduction of native systems of faith into the original Vedic theogony.

As regards your fire-fight with Kaptaan, it is a bit pointless on both sides. The fact is that the people of those parts and elsewhere had completely lost the memory of urbanisation in the IVC, and had to develop urbanisation all over again, probably during the period 1500 BCE to 600 BCE, although there is a temptation to point to earlier entry into south Asia through the Bolan Pass around 1900 BCE.