India Jet Engines and Gas Turbines

[Spitfire9]

You are very well informed about jet engines by all accounts. How long would you guess it would take for India to realise a 50kN dry and 75kN wet thrust engine for Tejas MK1A?

 

[Spitfire9]

News regarding progress towards an engine for the trinational 6G GCAP project...

GCAP Engine Team Makes Progress On Demonstrator | Aviation Week Network

Italy’s Avio Aero, Japan’s IHI Corporation and Rolls-Royce say they have advanced their work in additive manufacturing, cooling systems and high-pressure compressor design.

aviationweek.com

 

[TR_123456]

You are very well informed about jet engines by all accounts. How long would you guess it would take for India to realise a 50kN dry and 75kN wet thrust engine for Tejas MK1A?

Check out his taggs,he is the aviation specialist.

 

[Nilgiri]

You are very well informed about jet engines by all accounts. How long would you guess it would take for India to realise a 50kN dry and 75kN wet thrust engine for Tejas MK1A?

I do not have insider info on what the exact problems are.

The "wet thrust" doesn't really matter, that is just afterburner (inefficient) operation....it ends up being a byproduct "add on" to what your dry thrust basis is.

The dry thrust is where the issues would lie, bulk of flight envelope relies on dry thrust...including whenever you top it off with the afterburner for the extra (at fuel/range cost) in short moments.

i.e are the issues high rpm related and do the issues compound (add to each other) above certain rpm range. Things like blade flutter and engine screech that impact blade life and reliability seriously, along with any issues with the bearings and so on too. Or are they specific rpm ranges etc all along the rpm profile (this is harder to address).

Engine screech was a big problem on the PW engine for a while in the F-35, but Pratt obv has the extensive IP and capital bedrock to address it like it did in ~ 5 years or so (I worked in one research area to help it).

By all accounts so far, my best guess is that India sticks with the F404 for the mk1A, the F414 for the mk2.....and gets a rpm de-rated "derivative" of the Kaveri for use in the stealth UAV and marine platforms to get deployment feedback loop squared away in those applications first. i.e less taxing rpm envelope (if the issues are indeed largely segregated to high rpm envelope)....as you can control the size of new projects (like the UAV's maximum mass etc) that use a derated Kaveri on it.

The (license built) oprheus engine on the Gnat and Marut was similarly derated for use in an Indian trainer aircraft (Kiran) to get more lifetime out of it.

Then slow application of the capital machinery expertise that grows with the F414 production parternship with the US may aid in getting a more "high rpm robust" Kaveri successor etc.

 

[Spitfire9]

I do not have insider info on what the exact problems are.

The "wet thrust" doesn't really matter, that is just afterburner (inefficient) operation....it ends up being a byproduct "add on" to what your dry thrust basis is.

The dry thrust is where the issues would lie, bulk of flight envelope relies on dry thrust...including whenever you top it off with the afterburner for the extra (at fuel/range cost) in short moments.

i.e are the issues high rpm related and do the issues compound (add to each other) above certain rpm range. Things like blade flutter and engine screech that impact blade life and reliability seriously, along with any issues with the bearings and so on too. Or are they specific rpm ranges etc all along the rpm profile (this is harder to address).

Engine screech was a big problem on the PW engine for a while in the F-35, but Pratt obv has the extensive IP and capital bedrock to address it like it did in ~ 5 years or so (I worked in one research area to help it).

By all accounts so far, my best guess is that India sticks with the F404 for the mk1A, the F414 for the mk2.....and gets a rpm de-rated "derivative" of the Kaveri for use in the stealth UAV and marine platforms to get deployment feedback loop squared away in those applications first. i.e less taxing rpm envelope (if the issues are indeed largely segregated to high rpm envelope)....as you can control the size of new projects (like the UAV's maximum mass etc) that use a derated Kaveri on it.

The (license built) oprheus engine on the Gnat and Marut was similarly derated for use in an Indian trainer aircraft (Kiran) to get more lifetime out of it.

Then slow application of the capital machinery expertise that grows with the F414 production parternship with the US may aid in getting a more "high rpm robust" Kaveri successor etc.

Sounds like production of the LCA - for which Kaveri was intended - will finish before a usable Kaveri-based engine becomes available. Perhaps it will be there in time to replace F404 engines that have reached the end of their service lives?

 

[Nilgiri]

Sounds like production of the LCA - for which Kaveri was intended - will finish before a usable Kaveri-based engine becomes available. Perhaps it will be there in time to replace F404 engines that have reached the end of their service lives?

Unlikely, I think a MLU would just involve a major overhaul of the engines. Downstream there may be production of other things that have more pressing use for newer production engines at that point as well....who knows what capacity constraints are still in play needing sound prioritisation on A instead of B first etc.

 

[Nilgiri]

The Safran deal for the longer term might be close to finalisation:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1965996240937845187

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1969432531625001390

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1970061007201488993

 

[sup_lol]

You are very well informed about jet engines by all accounts. How long would you guess it would take for India to realise a 50kN dry and 75kN wet thrust engine for Tejas MK1A?

50KN dry is already done with the KDE showing 49KN at sea level so operational at altitude will be about 52KN. There was talk about an afterburner being produced by the company BrahMos which would bring it upto about GE 404 levels. But like Nilgiri said, the AFB section isnt that important compared to the dry one and TWR for dry is wayyy more important

 

[Spitfire9]

50KN dry is already done with the KDE showing 49KN at sea level so operational at altitude will be about 52KN. There was talk about an afterburner being produced by the company BrahMos which would bring it upto about GE 404 levels. But like Nilgiri said, the AFB section isnt that important compared to the dry one and TWR for dry is wayyy more important

OK, wet thrust is comparatively unimportant. I recall Brahmos being 'called in' to handle the afterburner. Is it doing that? One never knows with Indian development: things are announced then disappear never to be seen again or they are announced and remain work in progress for what seems an eternity. If there is a schedule with waypoints, it is rarely made public that waypoints are missed. I recall in 2009 it was announced that Kaveri would be installed in a Tejas by the end of the year. I never heard any more about it.

What is the current status of the afterburner? Is Brahmos looking like it will get wet thrust to an acceptable level to allow the Kaveri to be used in Tejas?