News Jokowi asks Elon Musk to study Indonesia as venue for SpaceX launch site

Anmdt

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Hey HOMBRE if you got a problem with me take it to the MOD by clicking that report button down there assuming you can see it. Here's a thing you need to know. I don't give care if I get banned from any forum. I'm not the one at loss. I don't get paid here anyway
I don't know what is your problem, but i suggest you to solve it by yourself.
I only reminded you to not use capitals, it is a simple manner of internet and articles. It is up to you to follow manners or not ,it will only affect your own profile and credibility.
 

trishna_amrta

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I only reminded you to not use capitals, it is a simple manner of internet and articles.
Meaning you want to govern others who are not in line with you, as in FORCING your way upon another person who doesn't share your belief. I'm guessing you also going to play grammar police perhaps?

IIt is up to you to follow manners or not ,it will only affect your own profile and credibility.
What make you delusional enough to believe I even care for anything that I don't get paid for?!

BTW your lucky we both don't stand in the same spot in the real world. And I mean every word. Take it anyway you want.
 

Anmdt

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Meaning you want to govern others who are not in line with you, as in FORCING your way upon another person who doesn't share your belief. I'm guessing you also going to play grammar police perhaps?


What make you delusional enough to believe I even care for anything that I don't get paid for?!

BTW your lucky we both don't stand in the same spot in the real world. And I mean every word. Take it anyway you want.
Manners are manners, i made my suggestion, take it or leave it.

For the latter part, yes i am glad i dont stand in the same spot with you neither on real or cyber life. Take it anyway you want ;)
 

Nilgiri

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I just don't see how the payload will be transport in a cost-efficient manner across the Pacific Ocean

If everything is set up well to handle it, it can be done. France/EU for example does so with Korou site in Guiana if you look at where the facilities are for production vs final assembly vs launch:


Roll on, roll off ships used for this logistics across ocean:

Kourou-arriv%C3%A9e-port-Pariacabo-620x308.png



@Vergennes

Clearly the attractiveness of equator location made all this viable and sound (which I show in next part).

The issue lies elsewhere w.r.t SpaceX and Indonesia...there is lot to juggle here in the initial investment needed in setting up completely new facility as opposed to say starting another one up in Korou like EU did to buy + handle russian rockets for example (separately to Ariane).

Are you referring SeaLaunch the ship thingy or generic term of launching an orbital vehicle from the sea?

SeaLaunch (the ship) have inherited size limit due (not big enough ship for heavy payload). While launching super heavy payload from the sea (think of the old SeaDragon concept) also have operational practicality limit which is sea weather and location. The launching location is the critical point, because in general you want the launch site as close as possible to the equator to save propellant mass, along with area free of population eastward of the launch site

Yes SeaLaunch is example I quote that harnessed the advantage of equator launch (for geo sat birds) quite directly. But it fell apart over time because of reasons I bring up (keeping things integrated politically and well functioned long term) that would also have bearing on SpaceX approaching other countries now.

Geo stationary is a big market in satellites after all, and here is little diagram I just drew up in paint to explain the effect of launch location viability w.r.t inclination of the orbit you will achieve when you insert into LEO (to then take later to GEO). It has additional bits for any space-nerds/geeks to discuss further with me if they would like:

GEOSAT.jpg


@Joe Shearer @Gautam @Paro @Sinan @T-123456 @xenon5434 @Test7 @Saiyan0321 @VCheng @UkroTurk @Zapper @Cabatli_53 @crixus @Raptor @Saithan @Webslave @500 @Milspec @Indos et al.

Actually there can be a bit of extra things done in steps 1 and 2, with making an elliptical LEO orbit so you can do inclination change cheaper (given low speed in apogee)...but this factors in for the larger envelope anyway....so really reducing that envelope cost (by getting as close to equator as possible for Geo stationary) is the biggest cost reduction driver for GEO-birds.

There is of course additional benefit of higher earth ground velocity found at equator too compared to higher latitude that helps, but it is generally secondary one up to about 30 degree inclination. This also ties into the eastern heading (to sea and no population zones for 1st stage debris especially) that is picked (given you make use of this eastern rotation of earth).

Molniya, tundra orbits etc are good alternatives for high latitudes looking to have as much look down time as possible (like geosynchronous is the gold standard for lower latitudes).


I don't see it happening myself. The supporting industry capability isn't there yet for any foreseeable future. And most importantly the education sector still legging too far behind to produce the necessary human resource. The work ethic also fare similar to the education sector.

Yes, nothing substitutes doing things the harder longer way. Shortcuts dont exist (sustainably) higher up tech chain you go especially.
 

Gary

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@trishna_amrta , I suggest you work with how you interact with each other here, I've seen many of your confrontational attitude without any reason at all, especially towards @anmdt

If you have any problems irl please do not use other members as your punching bag.
 

trishna_amrta

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If everything is set up well to handle it, it can be done. France/EU for example does so with Korou site in Guiana if you look at where the facilities are for production vs final assembly vs launch:


Roll on, roll off ships used for this logistics across ocean:

Kourou-arriv%C3%A9e-port-Pariacabo-620x308.png


Different context. The launching customer in mainland Europe do not have any other option for launching site other than Guiana. While the launching customer let say in the US have local launch sites which can can get the logistical side cheaper. I believe that is also partly how SpaceX managed to get their launch price cheaper overall.

Geo stationary is a big market in satellites after all
Up until around 10 - 20 years in the future that maybe the case. However, with SpaceX Starlink operating in LEO began operational other company will also try to take that share of market niche. For example 2 of my internet subscription are GEO satellite based (2 different company and different satellite). And WHEN SpaceX will expand their Starlink service by building more ground station locally here I will be happy to seriously consider subscribing to their service plan and ditch my current satellite internet subscription

geee that is very kind of you to draw that diagram yourself. I personally don't have the slightest clue of how to draw anything using a computer. Although I believe those whose not familiar with orbital mechanic & the tyranny of the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation might find it difficult to understand. I personally only grasp the concept of inclination burn with the help of animated gif. Sadly I no longer kept those diagrams nor do I've bookmarked their original source

BTW DON'T UNDERESTIMATE those penguins!:eek: They have serious numbers on their side and not only they are amphibious they also tend to be on the militant side :eek:

d1x3y3h-2673a85d-5c3a-4e06-9258-76126af1be57.png


so really reducing that envelope cost (by getting as close to equator as possible for Geo stationary) is the biggest cost reduction driver for GEO-birds.
To think of it, the easiest way to reduce cost is actually to reduce the level of complexity and overall mass of the launching rocket itself. Fuel / chemical propellant mass is cheap and any company could afford to bring extra fuel for longer inclination burn. However, the mass & complexity needed to store / tanking that fuel added to the overall mass of the launching vehicle (dead weight). So far I believe only SpaceX has managed to reduce the overall complexity & weight issue, thus making them the cheapest launcher.
 

Nilgiri

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Different context. The launching customer in mainland Europe do not have any other option for launching site other than Guiana. While the launching customer let say in the US have local launch sites which can can get the logistical side cheaper. I believe that is also partly how SpaceX managed to get their launch price cheaper overall.

Yeah, but it illustrates the basic idea and "push" to get rocket to equator. Now on other hand if 28 degree inclination advantage (basically Cape Canaveral vs Biak as your proposed candidate) is worth it economically (for GEOstationary birds exclusively) is another matter.

I can do an analysis for it if people interested (even over say decades time frame, to get capex ratio worthiness)...but it wont be too relevant given the other issues are far larger (especially what exactly SpaceX is focused on w.r.t cost cutting in first place).

Up until around 10 - 20 years in the future that maybe the case. However, with SpaceX Starlink operating in LEO began operational other company will also try to take that share of market niche. For example 2 of my internet subscription are GEO satellite based (2 different company and different satellite). And WHEN SpaceX will expand their Starlink service by building more ground station locally here I will be happy to seriously consider subscribing to their service plan and ditch my current satellite internet subscription

Yes this kind of thing is another factor for sure (constellations). But I leave out of analysis for simplicity sake just to get to one root of issue (there are other roots too).

This is also why I bring up molniya orbit too (which needs pairing or more) for regions of world where a long while now, GEO is not ideal to begin with.

geee that is very kind of you to draw that diagram yourself. I personally don't have the slightest clue of how to draw anything using a computer. Although I believe those whose not familiar with orbital mechanic & the tyranny of the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation might find it difficult to understand. I personally only grasp the concept of inclination burn with the help of animated gif. Sadly I no longer kept those diagrams nor do I've bookmarked their original source

BTW DON'T UNDERESTIMATE those penguins!:eek: They have serious numbers on their side and not only they are amphibious they also tend to be on the militant side :eek:

inclination burn is very easy, its just a vector input you do at the node of choice to keep the vector magnitudes the same but change direction only.

But easy doesn't mean cheap. With math its easy to show that large angle change at large velocities can get really expensive (can get to 50% of orbit speed budget or more and make things basically unfeasible).

Hence it is basically about having lowest speed and lowest angle change possible to do it (at the node) feasibly/economically.

BTW I love penguins, I used to work at zoo as teenager, and one of my jobs was to feed them. I won't underestimate them (esp given penguins of madagascar lol)....but they generally dont have satellite needs like fat lazy humans.

To think of it, the easiest way to reduce cost is actually to reduce the level of complexity and overall mass of the launching rocket itself. Fuel / chemical propellant mass is cheap and any company could afford to bring extra fuel for longer inclination burn. However, the mass & complexity needed to store / tanking that fuel added to the overall mass of the launching vehicle (dead weight). So far I believe only SpaceX has managed to reduce the overall complexity & weight issue, thus making them the cheapest launcher.

Yup there is huge ways to do the whole cost reduction. This is just a certerus paribus effectively to explore the effect of cost envelope by latitude (for geo stationary specifically). It is just one avenue in algorithm at large, there are other avenues....spaceX is something I can talk at length for hours actually....given what exactly they inherited from NASA and refined and honed and focused.
 

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