Karachi, Sindh - Pakistan's achilles heel?

[Kaptaan]

This thread will take a look at what is probably the greatest threat to the Pakistan federation over the next few decades and what can be done to reduce the risks involved. I begin with a quick summary of Sindh which is a province in south east of Pakistan with Karachi as it's capital.

• Sindh was the crucible of the ancient Indus Valley Civilization centred around Mohenjo Daro
• Sindh was the first region to get Islamic rule in South Asia
• Sindh was a emirate ruled by Talpurs prior to the conquest and annexation into British India in 1843.
• Sindh after British conquest was lumped with their Bombay Presidency.
• Sindh got it's own identity back in 1937 with Karachi as the capital of the province.
• Sindh assembly was the first British Indian legislature to pass the resolution in favour of Pakistan
• Sindh was the primary outlet to global sealanes for all of Pakistan on account of having coast on Arabian Sea.

All this tells us how important Sindh was in the making of Pakistan [note it was Sindh Provincial Assembly in 1940 in Karachi which became first provincial legislature for creation of Pakistan] but also it's port on the mouth of the Indus River on the Arabian Sea was the only port for all of Pakistan going north as far as Peshawar, Gilgit, Islamabad, Lahore.

Karachi by 1940 was premier city of what would become Pakistan and had the second highest population after Lahore.
Ever since 1880s and the British rail construction that linked Karachi port with the north the city had grown in size and wealth. Grand buildings which still stand today allude to this era. It became proably the most cleanest city in British Raj.
By 1940 it had nearly 500,000 population. Various trading communities got attracted to it. However after 1947 it's population exploded with migration from India who were refugees from Hindu mobs or economic migrants and attracted to the opportunities Karachi offered.


View attachment 716237

It is important to note that migration from India continued well past 1947. Indeed more migrants came from India post 1948 to Karachi then in 1947. In fact right till 1956 nine years after Pakistan came into being more migrants were moving to Karachi from India then internal migrants from rest of Pakistan. In the tables below please note "in migrants" means migration from within territory of Pakistan and "immigrants" means migrants from India. The total number of migrants from India in 1947 and partition was 502,000. From 1948 to 1955 [seven years after partition] over 570,000 migrants came from India. This means majority of the community today that is called Mohajir [migrants from India] moved to Pakistan after the country was established in 1947 and many came half a dozen years later. Table below annotated with period 1948-1955 in green.

Only by 1956 nearly decade after independance do we see reduction in immigrants from India that drops below the in-migration [from native Pakistan] at 15,000 compared to 22,000. By this stage the city had gone through profound change in it's demographic make. Indian migrants in less than 3 years had become dominant in numbers. The capital of Sindh had in effect become estranged from it's own province. The scene had been set for future ethnic conflict.

It is also relevant that the mass immigrant wave from India had no intention to assimiliate within the larger Sindhi umbrella they had sought refuge under. They instead carved a 'colony' similiar to how the British used to do with their cantonments. Indeed Sindhi's were expected to follow the culture of the migrants [mohajirs] with the convenient tool of "Islam". Which all too often was a culture they defined.

This demographic 'inversion" that took place in Karachi within few years after 1947 which turned Sindh's capital into "Little India" can best be seen in the graph below which charts the general population increase of other region/cities of Pakistan. The line marked green shows quite clearly the increase is conspiciously steep in Karachi that reflects the tidal wave of migration from India. Lahore had traditionally been the largest city in the Pakistan territory. However by 1951 Karachi had overtaken Lahore to become the largest city in Pakistan a position it has retained to this day with it's population in the upper side of 15 million.

Until 1947 Lahore was the largest city in Pakistan territory. After 1947 Lahore drops to No.2. Table below shows this change with bold black line. Before 1947 Lahore was nearly double the population of Karachi.

Fig. 1.1 shows that more than four-fifths of its population are migrants (also includes children of migrants born in Karachi: see glossary) from various parts of India and Pakistan. A major proportion of migrants came from India after the partition of Indo-Pakistan sub-continent on August 14, 1947. Karachi is still growing rapidly and in-migration (migration from other parts of Pakistan) is an important component of its growth. The influx of migrants, as experienced by great cities or metropolises elsewhere, is creating diverse demographic, economic and social problems.

Furthermore the fertility rate for migrants from India in 1959 was higher then natives or in country migrants. This would assure that population domination captured by the Indian migrants [mohajir] in 1947 would continue for many succeeding decades.

This will continue in the next post.



Primary source for data: People of Karachi. Demographic Statistics by Sultan Hashmi 1965

 

[Kaptaan]

All this demographic inversion happened under the Muslim League rule whose senior leadership was composed of migrants from India. Karachi was made capital of Pakistan until 1959. During this period the Indian migrant community also carved a extraordinary share in jobs and economic sphers of the new country. This 'capture' only came to end in 1958 when the Pakistan Army led by Gen. Ayub took. Most of the army was composed of Punjabi/Pakhtun ethnic groups from the north. In 1959 President Ayub moved to the new capital Islamabad adjacent to the home of the military - Rawalpindi.

However the demograhic domination by the Indian migrant community continued in Karachi. By 1971 Pakistan was being ruled by Zulfiqar Bhutto a ethnic Sindhi. He attempted to pull back some of the capture that the migrants had grabbed after 1947. In July 1972 the Sindh Assembly passed the language bill declaring Sindhi as the provincial language. This was the same assembly that just over 30 years before in 1940 passed the Sindh Resolution demanding creation of Pakistan becoming the first in doing so.

Yet this event led to ethnic riots in 1972 between native Sindhi's and migrant Indians who were often known as Mohajirs [literally migrants]. This clearly showed that Islam was not sufficient medium as both parties were Muslims. One had moved from India because they could not live in Hindu majority India. Now in Pakistan they could not get along with the natives because they were differant ethnic group - Sindhi. In India they were the same ethnicity but not the same religion. Now in Karachi they were same religion but differant ethnicity.

By 1980s the Mohajir capture was coming under pressure. At heart of the issue was the sense of entitlement or exceptionalism that Mohajirs had endowed on themselves. As their extraordinary capture of the socio-economic and politcal life of Pakistan and particularly Karachi came under pressure they formed a ethnic based party to fight for Karachi which they now considered as their fief. despite the fact that Karachi was capital of a province named after it';s main ethnic group - the Sindhi.

The Mohajir Quomi Movement [Migrant nation Movement] has represented the Indian migrant community to the present. They changed the name slightly to deflect from charges of ethnic-nationalism but that does little to fool anybody. MQM has fought against the Sindhi dominated Pakistan Peoples Party [PPP] which has tried to bring in quotas to give a chance for the natives to get their share. PPP has been led by the Bhutto family who are seen by the native Sindhi's as their gaurdians. The MQM was led by Altaf Hussain from 1980s to 2016. During the 1980s and 1990s ethnic warfare flared between the two communities. This gave Karachi the reputation as the most dangerous city in Pakistan and even became notorious abroad.

At times Karachi resembled a civil war with army moving in to establish some semblance of order. Altaf Hussain ran away to London and got asylum after he was charged with serious offences. He ran Karachi from London and was called the "mafia don" of Karachi. Nothing moved in the city without his say so.

The political divide is seen in elections. Most Mohajirs vote for MQM. Most Sindhi's vote for PPP. Both communties have in effect barricaded behind their respective ethnic based parties. Elections in Sindh just reveal districts according to their ethnic profle. In fact election maps might as well be ethnic maps, such is the congruence between voting patterns and ethnic groups.

Over the last decade Karachi resembled Beirut with it's zones and suspicion that India was financing MQM and even sending in operatives who would have contacts within the vast Indian Mohajir population of Karachi. Altaf Hussain the leader of MQM was even videoed giving talk in India that Pakistan was a mistake.


Below is election map of 2018 Sindh provincial elections. The black is Sindhi dominated PPP. Karachi is like a island with MQM and other parties holding sway. This explains the fundamental demographic challange Sindh faces today that will not go away.

MQM and the Mohajor community are pushing for Karachi to be truncated from Sindh. The majority native Sindhi people of Sindh absolutely will not accept Karachi being truncated from their province. From their perspective that would be like London, Istanbul or Dubai being truncated because of migrants who moved there now have majority. In addition the Mohajir demographic domination that they gained post 1947 during the mass migration from India is now under threat. They still are the single margest group but their share is now about 45% and dropping.

They regard this as a aberration but don't see that their mass migration from 1947-1955 was also a aberration that caused the native Sindhi's to become a minority.

"MQM-P convener Khalid Maqbool Siddiqui, while addressing a gathering in Karachi on August 21, made it clear that the domination of “Sindhi-speaking, rural PPP” will not be acceptable anymore and the only way to prevent the “total destruction of Karachi” is by declaring it as a separate province."

"The threat of ethnic violence and bloodbath in Sindh may not be a myth but will transform into a reality because Sindhi nationalists whether in the PPP, the Sindh-based Grand Democratic Alliance (GDA) or the Awami Tehreek have made it clear that the division of Sindh will be over their dead bodies; that they will not tolerate and allow the separation of Karachi from Sindh."

"placing Karachi under federal control, imposition of governor rule and the MQM-P’s demand that Karachi be carved out of Sindh and declared a separate province can trigger a serious crisis and outbreak of violence."

This issue therefor will not go away. In fact it began to incubate from 1947 and slowly got more serious over the decades. It proved if proof was needed that being Muslim was not sufficient to bind divergent communities. The tragic result is that both demographics have developed a ribal instinct where they see the other as threat and are pulled toward their ethnic based parties even if they are corrupt, engage in criminal activity. They rationalize their unqualified support under seige mentality of thinking as "they are ours" good or bad.

All this might not matter to rest of Pakistan but the problem is the geography of the 220 million country and it's entire trannsport infrastructure is laid so that the entire trade of the country flows along the north-south axis. Entire countries trade discharges at the only port of Karachi and entire countries imports arive at Karachi port. Thus geography has given the port a stranglehold on Pakistan. Thus whatever happens in Karachi impacts the port which of course resonates 1,000 miles north. The country is hostage to this geography and that gives both sides in the conflict - MQM and PPP a outsized role in the politics if the country.

So given the intractable problem of the MQM demands and PPP's position what can be done to resolve this issue before it explodes one day like Bangla 1971. History teaches us to take such problems seriously before the spark causes a explosive result. As mentioned before this problem will not go away.

So what are the solutions?

 

[VCheng]

It may be instructive to recall how the MQM was created to act as a tool to cut down PPP on its home grounds. The rest, as they say, is history.

 

[Saiyan0321]

So what are the solutions?

Man you are a machine gun you know that. After such it is hardly surprising that you get banned.

Ok so putting aside the history, lets breakdown the central problem of the post. You

You major query are the following, if i am correct.

1. That the ethnic makeup of Sindh creates a charged atmosphere that can light up at anytime as it has often been lit before and this will have a severe impact on the Pakistani economy due to the fact that the pakistani economy is heavily centered on Karachi due to it being our major trade city and our sole trading port.

2. That this charged atmosphere can create a similar situation like 1971, similar in the sense that there will be a more charged ethnic conflict. The military strength and geographic indicators make an exact situation like 1971 impossible but an ethnic charged conflict on a larger scale. Basically if Karachi wont be lit, then Sindh will be lit due to the rival atmosphere in Sindh politics and if such happens then ofcourse it will again impact our trading port of karachi since no matter what the fact is that karachi is in sindh. This is a geographic fact. even if we make it a province tomorrow, it wont magically move away from Sindh. The major road connectivity that goes through sindh to connect to karachi will be there and if sindh gets lit then ofcourse the north south corridors will be impacted.

Your major concern in the post is that for Pakistan both the road aka sindh and the destination aka karachi are insecure.


This is your basic concern and the solutions are for this.

First of all beating down muhajirs isnt going to help neither will alienating sindhis will help. You, in your research, held that the Muhajir community has seen a decline in population and one of the major factors is economic migration that all large cities go through, for example in Lahore, the actual 1947 lahoris are a minority. The city is now home to multiple ethnic people and massive migration from surrounding cities. Infact during Eid days, the city sees a massive drop in population since millions literally millions travel to their home districts. So one of the major aspects of Muhajir number reduction is ofcourse the massive economic migration. Many people migrate to karachi and most notable was the migration during the operations of 2000s and 2010s where baluch and pashtuns migrated to the city and in such number and had such an impact that pashtu is now becoming part of the karachi speak. This is a massive impact.
Another factor, that is often ignored, is assimilation. Eventually, under nations, ethnicities and identities assimilate especially weak or minority identities. This impacted the Muhajirs as well as no matter how much they fight , there will be assimilation and while they did try to create a new identity aka muhajir, i feel that this also received a push back since this identity was nameless and senseless, It could not erase the old identities that have existed in the region and some of the most notable being the identities based on castes like the Ashraf and Ajlaf castes. They can try to become some large muhajir identity but a sayyed or pathan or Ashraf caste is not going to call himself an equal to the Qureshi. I am not saying that there is no sense of community.; There is but the mountain is simply too large for it to form a successful identity. So yes the grandfathers fought against assimilation, fathers did but as Pakistan continues its existence and continues its citizen program, like all nations, these identities will assimilate. Let me give you an example, while the adjoining areas of Punjab did see migration from indian Punjab but many traveled from Uttar Pardesh and even Bihar. In sheikhupura, There are bihari community near bihari colony, opp civil lines where i live and they live peacefully and happily. They are part of the city politics and polity and the national politics. N supporters and PTI supporters can be found among them and interest driven politics as well like supporting xyz candidate because he is beneficial. I think they voted for mian khalid who is from mian biradari. right next to them is a pathan from Swat. So what i am trying to say is that muhajir identity mission was doomed to failure because you cant magically create identities like that nor communities. This takes alot of hardwork and a conductive environment and neither were available here.

But this is all not the point. Your point is what immediate steps and longterm steps should Pakistan take in making sure if there is any conflict in Karachi or sindh, our network remains secured. Well the most long term is ofcourse development is ofcourse into our western corridor and we can do that first by developing eastern and central KPK and connecting it as much as possible with central Punjab. It is very much connected due to recent motorway linkage but railway tracks and more connectivity and industrialization will create job opportunities that will bring trader and economic interest to eastern KPK. This will make sure that the trade networks are centrally secure and are not solely relied on the south. Even if there was no threat to conflict, this should still be done since Pakistan is a growing population country with a huge number of young men and women and one of the major assets of such a huge population is that, if used rightly, they can contribute in making large metropolitan cities that can really make or break a city. Pakistan desperately needs such cities and by increasing the economic activity and develop the western region, we can make sure that northern Pakistan becomes intertwined and more economically secure so in the event of a future conflict or even if say that there is a war and Karachi becomes blocked or no longer passible, then we can rely on our northern economic activity. This northern economic connectivity can be used in the future to link with Central Asia. We often talk about connecting to central asia but frankly its a joke. Our Industrial region is in eastern Punjab and our economic hub is in the south. What will you connect with Central Asia? Tourism? what a joke. Fact is that our geographic importance lies in our western region and its development will change Pakistan. People talk about wakhan corridor and moan on how we dont have direct link with Central Asia. We dont need direct link. We have China and Afghanistan. Both are feasible but the problem is not feasibility but the inability of our western region to absorb economic and industrial growth due to limited capacity. This is a Gold mine that we are ignoring just like in the event of of a more positive relationship with India, eastern Punjab would have been a trading hub. This is the secret of our geography. Pakistan is home to the trade cities and ancient regions that nations fought and killed for. Quetta to Kandahar, Khyber to Kabul, Lahore to Delhi and the sea that made the arabs rich. All we got were these regions. We got nothing else but these regions and this speaks volumes of our failures that these ancient cities and areas that connected to the world died due to our neglect. Putting aside this, northern connectivity is the key here and it will open the gates of western and central Asia.

Next as we work on northern connectivity and look to connect Central and Western Asia, we develop and secure Gwadar and create a corridor of industry in Baluchistan even if that industry is walled or fenced. It needs to be there where it will create great industrial zones which will allow for growth of cities and districts which will benefit the locals as well. For this the sardars should be kept in line. As long as they hold power, they will always interfere and will neither allow human development in the province nor allow any economic migration to the province. Quetta is key here as the city, with its history, and link to Afghanistan to Iran could be a game changer but unfortunately both those countries are a mess. One is an Isolated Mullah regime sanctioned and the other is ion a state of Civil war. Thus whilst keeping contingencies for future, quetta must be relinked as the bridge between the northern economic hub and gwadar. You see if the northern economic hub, with its growing connection to Central Asia, Quetta can play a key role here and make sure that the western corridor will stay western and will allow Punjab to become connected that way as well. You see, we will have a backup connection and economic roads are like a web and these webs can have traders embark thousands of mile journeys to become part of these webs.
Then Gwadar should be promoted. Logistics will demand that the northern corridor, connecting to various industrial zones and hubs, will use gwadar rather than roundabout trips to Karachi. This will see a massive development all over Pakistan and we can even then create webs to connect northern and central Sindh to the northern corridor and while Sindh will always use Karachi, but it will be able to access the now connected western region to Central Asia.

Without the above, i feel nothing, no CPEC no corridors will ever work. They will fail. The key is KPK and both Punjab and KPK can really make a change here especially if Afghanistan becomes stable and our relations with India improve. These are historical trade zones. They were just horrifically neglected. One only needs to look at the historical Grand Trunk Road to know where the Trade routes were in South Asia.


Anyhow i believe this is the most feasible solution that can also develop some of our backward regions and allow help the economy of the country.


As for the political situation of Sindh. Well political differences are always there but assimilation and growth of national parties would always help and ofcourse hard work by political parties to make sure that their messages are not just for a specific audience but for all of them.

It may be instructive to recall how the MQM was created to act as a tool to cut down PPP on its home grounds. The rest, as they say, is history.

Ofcourse. We have seen this again and again since 1947.

 

[VCheng]

Ofcourse. We have seen this again and again since 1947.

The only thing more dangerous than the periodic dictatorships - the gifts that keep on giving - is the conscious and dishonest effort to revise history to hide the real source of the villainy. Something about not learning from history and repeating it comes to mind.

 

[Saiyan0321]

The only thing more dangerous than the periodic dictatorships - the gifts that keep on giving - is the conscious and dishonest effort to revise history to hide the real source of the villainy. Something about not learning from history and repeating it comes to mind.

You know it is now becoming very difficult to hide history or revise it. We live in a very connected world where ideas and conversations clash and come to terms and as information flows, so does history. So yes once there would have been very difficult to read amazing books detailed much about history but now most are available on various websites free for reading and those that are not, the idea promoted in them often comes to discussion. I see growing awareness amongst many in pakistan and even if it becomes from 0.003% to 2% then it is progress.

 

[VCheng]

what immediate steps and longterm steps should Pakistan take in making sure if there is any conflict in Karachi or sindh, our network remains secured. Well the most long term is ofcourse development is ofcourse into our western corridor and we can do that first by developing eastern and central KPK and connecting it as much as possible with central Punjab.

Let us keep in mind that the fissures in Karachi that make it susceptible are also there in Balochistan. Yes, an alternate route may offer some redundancy, but it will never make up for the social fissures that run deep within the entire country.

 

[Saiyan0321]

Let us keep in mind that the fissures in Karachi that make it susceptible are also there in Balochistan. Yes, an alternate route may offer some redundancy, but it will never make up for the social fissures that run deep within the entire country.

True but it will have a huge beneficial impact on 65% of the country which has largely been ignored. The fissures exist there as well but such connectivity can act as a healing guide as well especially when one of the major reasons is economic. This way we can develop our most important regions whilst also making sure that our trade is divided all over pakistan and is not set on a single city or poet. I think this is making the best of it especially considering that every single development on our western region especially in KPK will be focused on Central Asia connectivity. This way we can actually become more connected and take advantage of our geography that is often talked about but never implemented.

 

[VCheng]

True but it will have a huge beneficial impact on 65% of the country which has largely been ignored. The fissures exist there as well but such connectivity can act as a healing guide as well especially when one of the major reasons is economic. This way we can develop our most important regions whilst also making sure that our trade is divided all over pakistan and is not set on a single city or poet. I think this is making the best of it especially considering that every single development on our western region especially in KPK will be focused on Central Asia connectivity. This way we can actually become more connected and take advantage of our geography that is often talked about but never implemented.

Only if the locals are included in the development. Leave them out, or include only as a token, and all of that work goes to waste. The CPEC as a trade channel is presently entirely controlled by the usual suspects.

 

[Kaptaan]

Guys I will get back to you when I finish some reading I am doing. I will be openimng a thread that might be of interest to the guy who blames everything on Pakistan Army.

 

[Nilgiri]

True but it will have a huge beneficial impact on 65% of the country which has largely been ignored. The fissures exist there as well but such connectivity can act as a healing guide as well especially when one of the major reasons is economic. This way we can develop our most important regions whilst also making sure that our trade is divided all over pakistan and is not set on a single city or poet. I think this is making the best of it especially considering that every single development on our western region especially in KPK will be focused on Central Asia connectivity. This way we can actually become more connected and take advantage of our geography that is often talked about but never implemented.

No country, I repeat no country has developed doing extended logistics and corridors and such first....in some cart before donkey manner.

You will either hit saturation on own debt, or if you have a foreign surplus provider for it....you get into debt problems with them (since you cannot back it up yourself internally).

Every country (developed or figuring out/on the sustainable route to it) has provided security and law and order to a key port+production city (or cities) and got its own people to trust and invest into the system (i.e put their savings on the books to leverage things the country needs in the next following tiers).

This then provides the starting capital leverage (by basic factories and production of things you can already do with what you have) over time (say a decade of trust buffer) to expand and connect logistics to get deeper branches into the country for this to percolate better as you describe.

Pakistan for some reason for last 30 years thinks it can re-invent this wheel....simply to keep its vested interests + cabal satisfied (by deliberately perpetuating the largest consumption rate possible so they may take their cut most readily i.e "off the books").

Simply to assure 90%+ consumption rate for assured extraction by khakis and their proxies...savings rate is simply thrown to the dogs (by deliberate policy and implementation that SBP runs into like brick wall in their papers each time -and I haven't seen even 0.01% of pakistanis in the position to do so, ask WHY?...or they simply know the answer or are too afraid or are part of it)

The self-asserted best microcosm of Pakistan (online) have thrown many of their heads together and certainly typed a lot of words for their work....but no one has asked or answered how to get the savings rate (7%) doubled to 14% (still extremely low, but at least twice 7%) for starters....by doing the sequential questioning, pressure to get the reform kicking where it is needed.

It is only with a 14% savings rate that you can even think about getting to 20+% which is the basic minimum you need to start thinking about sustainable logistics development that matters.

The longer every concentration/collection of elitist and/or elitist-larping pakistanis keep doing this charade....the more they prove firmly what the 1st principle psychological problem is...stemming from something quite deep.

The fact there is literally 100's of threads (in that gathering I "the noisy kafir" have been silenced at along with the birader turks....leading to this place) about "power problems" being the magical issue holding back whatever, shows how utterly stupid that lot is (especially the ones running that place). Then that becomes part of the same ole patwari vs youthia musical chairs thing for a 1000 more threads of utter tripe.

When these people (if they are the elitists they say they are) could be using that time and effort to petition some small change where it actually matters and is consequential (i.e the ABC-XYZ bureaucrats giving you the runaround treatment on any issue so you dont get to who pulls their strings).

One of (many of) these goons (sitting in britain of course) literally posted (in my last sojourn of quick browse) something about "Hey does bangladesh have as many Audi/Lambo/Ferrari/Merc supercar dealerships like us in Pakistan??!??!"....in some thread about how BD plans to get its auto-industry developed (now that its savings rate is around 30%)....and gets into some pissing match about it....wow.

Need I say more? This guy is some super smart brainy type of logical argument?.....or the typical bradford shopworker that is on a break with his smartphone and had some complex to grind? Gee I wonder!

All very super helpful and thoughtful for his country (both consequence and image), this makes up 99% of bread and butter of that place....%$##- tards!

Anyway....apparently China had zero power issues during the 80s and even 90s when deng xiaopeng and team were hard at work getting factories up and running?

When has a country developed not being able to fix its own power stations/power situation and discoms itself anyway?

A foreigner has the incentive to do this?.... exactly why?...when you haven't shown it yourself on top?

Or would the foreigner work on same principle of the cabal? i.e Keep the consumption rate as high as possible...to mucho off that off the books, inflation and all?

I think loan piles for logistics would be the perfect "handshake" way they would do that. Has that happened in Pakistan?...no surprised Pikachu face here...

Seriously these sensitive feelings + "PRC troll privilege must be enshrined at all costs (even to muh-birader turks)" oxygen thieves at the earlier gathering (still unwilling to man up and tell me what's what when they dont got the powah...) can maybe tell me when the actual factory complex of note (from same deity-protected-level loan providers) arrives.

Why can't the 99% of these people be more like you 3 musketeers here...you guys all are fairly independent, actually able to argue your viewpoint, and hold some consistency so you call out the BS you see. Not agreeing and 2 of you having serious issue with each other, is part and parcel of it....comes with the territory among any group of people.....but you are all actually able to cover a pretty diverse range of points and perspectives consistently (which I appreciate). Fact most cannot do this among your larger group is really quite a shame, and it is underlying problem in the country I feel....of a scale/intensity well larger than most.

Anyway, even trying to move past that lot...does anything fundamentally really change?....looking at what pops up in one of the newsreel you posted earlier (that I saved, and wrote up debate on, but thought of better later given the forum situation evolving at that point that needed cooling):

The hosts – Shahbaz Rana and Kamran Yousaf – discussed in detail the factors that influence the pricing mechanism, compared the brands with India, and dug deeper into the issues being faced by the consumers.

Suneel Munj, the co-founder of PakWheels.com, said that there was no doubt that cars were not only expensive but there was no clear policy to ensure safety and quality features in Pakistan.

“Cars are expensive but the real issue is that the buyers do not get the best value for their money,” Munj said, adding overpricing and that too without the international standard safety and quality features was the real issue.

MNA Ali Pervaiz said that “cartelisation” is evident from the heavy presence of specific players of the automobile industry in the market. The lawmaker emphasised on the need for providing conducive environment and positive competition.

Pervaiz also blamed the ban on the import of cars for cartelisation.

Engineer Asim Ayaz of the Engineering Development Board (EDB) – the apex government body under Ministry of Industries and Production – however, said that the government did not control prices nor the features, adding that the EDB monitors Completely Knockdown (CKD) units’ imports. “Top-of-the-line vehicles have all the international features,” Ayaz said.

“Price control should be a subject of the government instead of the auto industry,” Munj incorporated, adding that the industry should be asked to explain how different things – taxes, dollar rate and local production of parts – influence prices and the government should work on how prices can be reduced. “The government should monitor auto industry just like it monitors a retail shop,” he said.

It is frankly ridiculous, pointing at cartels and oligarchs and thinking govt (and deliberate govt policy on and off the books) isnt fundamentally tied to those.

This smoke and mirrors is quite off putting...and off the scale in Pakistan.

I will let you guys continue your debate and maybe one of you can talk about this specific industry if you want more of the points I jotted down (if any interest in it etc). If the basic points can be fleshed out within one industry, it extends to every other one.

I think I will let you guys lead the topics/debate from now on since there's only 3 of you here for now that sustaining your perspectives on it.

Only if the locals are included in the development. Leave them out, or include only as a token, and all of that work goes to waste. The CPEC as a trade channel is presently entirely controlled by the usual suspects.

Yup...but this is saying quiet part out loud....again its further consequence of the deliberate exclusion at systematic financial level....i.e the problem of bringing things on-book and for open-viewing/taxable etc...when you have a whole large front running the whole system that benefits from status quo of high consumption rate to begin with.

Whatever idling savings rate is produced anyway is then sugar-daddied around to show some brochures.

Where is the sustenance and actual critical thinking and objective and hard work and (quiet+serious) reform?....and simple implementation (from the inside out and from the 1st logical principles) of what has worked for every other country?

 

[Kaptaan]

The only thing more dangerous than the periodic dictatorships - the gifts that keep on giving

You need to take a good , hard look at the mother dictatorship that gave all the gifts. And then some.

The first dictatorship - Pakistan 1948-1958.

Generally speaking most people regard the coup of Gen. Ayub Khan in 1958 as the first dictatorship in Pakistan's history. But is that so? To answer that question let us ask ourselves what dictatorship means. "a form of government in which a ruler or small clique wield absolute power. Clique...

defencehub.live

 

[VCheng]

The fact there is literally 100's of threads (in that gathering I "the noisy kafir" have been silenced at along with the birader turks....leading to this place) about "power problems" being the magical issue holding back whatever, shows how utterly stupid that lot is (especially the ones running that place). Then that becomes part of the same ole patwari vs youthia musical chairs thing for a 1000 more threads of utter tripe.

When these people (if they are the elitists they say they are) could be using that time and effort to petition some small change where it actually matters and is consequential (i.e the ABC-XYZ bureaucrats giving you the runaround treatment on any issue so you dont get to who pulls their strings).

One of (many of) these goons (sitting in britain of course) literally posted (in my last sojourn of quick browse) something about "Hey does bangladesh have as many Audi/Lambo/Ferrari/Merc supercar dealerships like us in Pakistan??!??!"....in some thread about how BD plans to get its auto-industry developed (now that its savings rate is around 30%)....and gets into some pissing match about it....wow.

That shithole is drowning in its own excreta. It has dropped in Alexa rankings from 20k to below 42K, roughly. It is now largely irrelevant, and headed for oblivion, unless something changes, you know.

This smoke and mirrors is quite off putting...and off the scale in Pakistan.

Not really, What the foreign observer sees as off putting is only right and righteous when views domestically through the prescribed green goggles.

Yup...but this is saying quiet part out loud....again its further consequence of the deliberate exclusion at systematic financial level....i.e the problem of bringing things on-book and for open-viewing/taxable etc...when you have a whole large front running the whole system that benefits from status quo of high consumption rate to begin with.

Whatever idling savings rate is produced anyway is then sugar-daddied around to show some brochures.

Where is the sustenance and actual critical thinking and objective and hard work and (quiet+serious) reform?....and simple implementation (from the inside out and from the 1st logical principles) of what has worked for every other country?

Economics knows no religion. The trends, if continued, will inevitably lead to a logical end.

 

[Nilgiri]

Not really, What the foreign observer sees as off putting is only right and righteous when views domestically through the prescribed green goggles.

Well I am a foreigner. Though I have indulged in some local-groupthink for the sake of it (esp to bash on some other groupthink mobs, to better understand how groupthink mechanics works in the region, having been largely removed from it much to Joe's bemusement)....the emperor's new clothes complex is realised by more than I initially thought (among some worthies).

Given that... I find it even more off-putting. The psychology and run of the mill stuff just takes up too much of their time and energy if I am to extrapolate this.

Economics knows no religion. The trends, if continued, will inevitably lead to a logical end.

We will see. The system is too complicated for me to understand and I have given up. Countries can get by on very little...it is frankly amazing what people can convince themselves of. That just makes me bitter to think about that, that resilience and fortitude wasted by complete misdirection.

 

[VCheng]

We will see. The system is too complicated for me to understand and I have given up. Countries can get by on very little...it is frankly amazing what people can convince themselves of. That just makes me bitter to think about that, that resilience and fortitude wasted by complete misdirection.

As long as one understands that countries that appear to get by with very little are actually paying a huge price in the destroyed futures of its coming generations. Stealing from the future to get by today is a losing deal.

 

[Saiyan0321]

Both of you enough.

 

[VCheng]

Both of you enough.

You edited my post for no good reason, but whatever, my point still stands.

Moving the topic along, Karachi is as much an asset as it is a problem for the whole country. The inability of the powers that be to accentuate the positives and eliminate the negatives, as the old song goes, is the real issue here, not the city or its residents.