TR Land Vehicle Programs

lLiberté

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there is also rumours floating around that all three companies will produce the chosen vehicle. Don’t know how credible that is though you already mentioned something in that direction being the reason the CEO of BMC resigned.

I wish this to be true but hearing numbers are dropped from thousands to 300s I don't have much hope. I doubt Altuğ can go toe-to-toe with Arma II or Pars Alpha at this point, Otokar and FNSS seems to have a huge lead. One thing I don't get it, why FNSS insisting on using their own turret instead of KORHAN like BMC and Otokar did. As far as I'm concerned Land Forces Command wants them to use KORHAN.
 

TheInsider

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I wish this to be true but hearing numbers are dropped from thousands to 300s I don't have much hope. I doubt Altuğ can go toe-to-toe with Arma II or Pars Alpha at this point, Otokar and FNSS seems to have a huge lead. One thing I don't get it, why FNSS insisting on using their own turret instead of KORHAN like BMC and Otokar did. As far as I'm concerned Land Forces Command wants them to use KORHAN.
They are not insisting on using their turret. They are offering it as an alternative. There will be more than one configuration and SSB will decide which configuration will have what kind of turret. The turret of FNSS is really good because it can switch between 30/35/40mm by just changing the barrel of the gun and it can carry 2x ATGMs.
 

lLiberté

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They are not insisting on using their turret. They are offering it as an alternative. There will be more than one configuration and SSB will decide which configuration will have what kind of turret. The turret of FNSS is really good because it can switch between 30/35/40mm by just changing the barrel of the gun and it can carry 2x ATGMs.

For some reason I remember KORHAN being requirement in YN-ZMA project, thank you for correction. I highly doubt Command would like to adopt ATGM + auto cannon combination.

Whoever the winner is, we must use Ecotorq power pack and use it on the field as soon as possible to label it as combat proven.
 

Merzifonlu

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Whoever the winner is, we must use Ecotorq power pack and use it on the field as soon as possible to label it as combat proven.
There is a domestic Ecotorq transmission designed and produced locally by Ford Otosan for the Ecotorq engine. But this transmission was not used in the 8x8 Arma II armored vehicle produced by Koç Group, although the domestic Ecotorq engine was used. Why didn't they choose it in Arma II? I wondered about this.
 

zio

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The 8x8 tender demands %80 domestic rate than FNSS does not care of it,what the f…ck going on there.
 

lLiberté

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There is a domestic Ecotorq transmission designed and produced locally by Ford Otosan for the Ecotorq engine. But this transmission was not used in the 8x8 Arma II armored vehicle produced by Koç Group, although the domestic Ecotorq engine was used. Why didn't they choose it in Arma II? I wondered about this.

Well much of the transmission system of Arma II was local except for the gearbox per Mr. Serdar Görgüç's interview. Reason for why they did not used Ecotorq transmission is probably it's qualification tests were not completed. Arma II was introduced to public eye in January 2023, the source I've cited above was released in March 2023.

Ecotorq Engine is a proven piece technology, I hope Ecotorq power pack will be integrated to Pars. We've waited far too long just because local engine requirement, at this point we must enforce it even harsher as not just the engine but whole power pack.
 

Merzifonlu

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Reason for why they did not used Ecotorq transmission is probably it's qualification tests were not completed.
I don't think so.

-This is my understanding, I could be wrong- The problem is that the domestic transmission produced by Ford Otosan for the Ekotorq engine has a 600 HP retarder. The domestic Ecotorq transmission cannot keep up with the engine's increased power of 720 HP.

-Again, this is my understanding, I could be wrong again- this transmission is designed for comfort in civilian use. It is too complex for military use, it has 16 forward and 4 reverse gears.

Someone who experts, please correct me if I'm technically wrong.

Another possible reason why the domestic transmission was not preferred in the Arma II military vehicle may be that some critical components of the transmission are of foreign origin.
 
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Sanchez

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Some ideas from what I could gather recently:

There's nothing to suggest that Arma II runs in the YNHZA program, unlike FNSS Alpha. FNSS directly confirmed that Alpha/Pars V was not a new design and that it had been running for more than 3 years and joined all the tests.

BMC's engine for YNHZA has been missing for years, there's nothing to suggest that it has been running on these test articles. With the revised number of first party vehicles being lower, I think first production batches will run foreign engine packs to not delay the program 2-3 more years, like Fırtına and Altay.
 

Merzifonlu

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BMC's engine for YNHZA has been missing for years, there's nothing to suggest that it has been running on these test articles.
BMC Power has 400 HP and 600 HP diesel engines, but BMC Poweer has not developed a domestic transmission for them. There are also 1000 HP UTKU and 1500 HP BATU engines and their transmissions.

BMC Power does not have a power package (engine+transmission) in the 750 HP class.
 

lLiberté

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-This is my understanding, I could be wrong- The problem is that the domestic transmission produced by Ford Otosan for the Ekotorq engine has a 600 HP retarder. The domestic Ecotorq transmission cannot keep up with the engine's increased power of 720 HP.

This could be a reason, I don't really know much of detailed specifics of how engine/transmission combination works.

-Again, this is my understanding, I could be wrong again- this transmission is designed for comfort in civilian use. It is too complex for military use, it has 16 forward and 4 reverse gears.

I doubt that one though, nearly every 8x8/6x6 tactical wheeled vehicle uses civilian/industrial grade engines, Ecotorq has been used on heavy duty trucks for years.

Another possible reason why the domestic transmission was not preferred in the Arma II military vehicle may be that some critical components of the transmission are of foreign origin.

Eh, that is incredibly weak reason and if such reason actually put up using against Ecotorq I don't know what to say. Pars running on foreign power pack, if we have proven piece we should take advantage. Of course it is easy for me/us to talk from here we don't really know tests and actual requirements of Command.

Also I could find only one component used in Ecotorq Transmission is foreign origin which is Retarder. In Voith's website it is stated that Voith will be supplying retarders for Otosan's new 16-Speed Transmission, this news is dating back to 2021,

Here is the Image of Ecotorq with Voith Retarded Published by Voith
Otosan Ecotorq with Voith Retarder.png


There's nothing to suggest that Arma II runs in the YNHZA program, unlike FNSS Alpha. FNSS directly confirmed that Alpha/Pars V was not a new design and that it had been running for more than 3 years and joined all the tests.

I'm actually glad Command actually went with a competent design, Alpha looks like an incredible platform. I hope it will be backbone of Wheeled Vehicles.

BMC Power has 400 HP and 600 HP diesel engines, but BMC Poweer has not developed a domestic transmission for them. There are also 1000 HP UTKU and 1500 HP BATU engines and their transmissions.

As far as I'm concerned TUNA is the only engine in production, 600hp AZRA still not being produced nor used by BMC as Altuğ runs on foreign engine. I hope SSM will pick optimised Ecotorq for 500-800hp class so BMC can actually focus on UTKU and BATU.

UTKU and BATU would solve so many problems we are facing right now, Tulpar with UTKU would be marvellous tracked vehicle for our armed forces, I don't think I need to stress how much we need BATU.
 
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Sanchez

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BMC Power has 400 HP and 600 HP diesel engines, but BMC Poweer has not developed a domestic transmission for them. There are also 1000 HP UTKU and 1500 HP BATU engines and their transmissions.

BMC Power does not have a power package (engine+transmission) in the 750 HP class.
Lightest of these vehicles will be around 35 tons. Engine for them is the 1000hp Utku and it's unaccounted for a long time, last we heard was in 2021.
"UTKU engine developed by BMC Power for light armored vehicles and howitzers up to 40-45 tons"

FNSS says tests for YNHZA have been going on for years, and Utku was first powered up in 2021. Program had started 2019 and tests started in 2020 per FNSS. Which leads me to believe Utku was never integrated to test articles.

Now that selection seems all but finalized and engine seems settled, we are back to other issues. Like, is Korhan ready for serial production with its million optics and gun. I have my doubts.
 
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boredaf

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it's unaccounted for a long time, last we heard was in 2021.
There were news about it last year unless I'm mistaken, some number of prototypes were already built and were going through testing. I would expect we are going to hear something this year as they are supposed to be delivered next year for Fırtına.
 

Kartal1

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Some ideas from what I could gather recently:

There's nothing to suggest that Arma II runs in the YNHZA program, unlike FNSS Alpha. FNSS directly confirmed that Alpha/Pars V was not a new design and that it had been running for more than 3 years and joined all the tests.

BMC's engine for YNHZA has been missing for years, there's nothing to suggest that it has been running on these test articles. With the revised number of first party vehicles being lower, I think first production batches will run foreign engine packs to not delay the program 2-3 more years, like Fırtına and Altay.
As far as I remember this was also the plan for OMTTZA initially. The initially produced to be equipped with a foreign power pack and the next ones to be equipped with a national engines from TUMOSAN. FNSS also prepaid TUMOSAN the price for 100 engines. 450hp and 550hp engines were supposed to be tested on FNSS platforms in 2021 and in 2022 TUMOSAN was supposed to start the serial production and we see the result...

OKK started receiving their Pars IV with foreign engines, but no news on deliveries of the other configurations neither to TSK or the Gendarmerie.
 

Sanchez

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As far as I remember this was also the plan for OMTTZA initially. The initially produced to be equipped with a foreign power pack and the next ones to be equipped with a national engines from TUMOSAN. FNSS also prepaid TUMOSAN the price for 100 engines. 450hp and 550hp engines were supposed to be tested on FNSS platforms in 2021 and in 2022 TUMOSAN was supposed to start the serial production and we see the result...

OKK started receiving their Pars IV with foreign engines, but no news on deliveries of the other configurations neither to TSK or the Gendarmerie.
MKKA(Pars IV 6x6 SOV for ÖKK) and ÖMTTZA(İzci for signal, command, radar+5 IFVs for gendarme) were different programs. I believe MKKA deliveries are complete. Which was a much more expensive(albeit produced in low numbers) and advanced vehicle. We are yet to see ÖMTTZA deliveries, 3 years later. They wanted to do it on the cheap with İzci, now look where we are.
ÖMTTZA(100 vehicles. 95 sensor, radar, CBRN and command vehicles, 5 IFVs for gendarme) was signed in Dec 2019 and had a project length of 36 months. All deliveries were to be completed from 24th to 36th months. At this point, no deliveries have been made and program is 2 years behind the schedule. Boys in the army are still using M113s for these roles and gendarme still don't have their IFVs.

Tümosan was to deliver the engines for these vehicles. As we haven't heard anything from their development in years, I think Tümosan engines are left behind and they will probably use BMC's Azra if and when it becomes ready. What a sham. For this exact point, unless deliveries are complete, we can never, evet trust a procurement to go through. Another lesson in bad project management.
 

Kartal1

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MKKA(Pars IV 6x6 SOV for ÖKK) and ÖMTTZA(İzci for signal, command, radar+5 IFVs for gendarme) were different programs. I believe MKKA deliveries are complete. Which was a much more expensive(albeit produced in low numbers) and advanced vehicle. We are yet to see ÖMTTZA deliveries, 3 years later. They wanted to do it on the cheap with İzci, now look where we are.
Technically yes, but in terms of timeframe it was supposed to be going hand in hand with each other.
 

Merzifonlu

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As far as I understand, both Tümosan and BMC Power could not start mass production of domestic armored vehicle diesel engines (and transmissions) on the mass production date they predicted.

Then there is a problem in the domestic machinery manufacturing industry in general. This conclusion follows from here.

Tümosan Chief Engineer mentioned in an interview that they had tolerance problems in the subsystems produced by domestic suppliers for mass production.
 

dBSPL

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I just wonder if the GURZ turret can be mounted on the Pars-Alpha?


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So, technically it is possible.
 
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