Korea Main Battle Tank programs

[Windchime]

It would by nice to have a comparable Korean short-stroke tank engine to rival MTU.

I'm not sure on why you and Baljak are so obsessed about short-stroke engines.

Yes, their throttle response could be better since they are short-stroke but low-end torque always favors the long-stroke given equal-everything else. DV27K's problems/deficiencies were/are not caused due to its long-stroke design, but rather stems from the inferior design and manufacturing capabilities of Doosan Infracore in the field of heavy duty high-speed diesel engines. There are plenty of good long-stroke designs out there around the world.

As for the contemporary western Tanks the British use the long-stroke CV12 as well. Talking about square or short-stroke engines, for example the ADVS-1790 was a square engine, and was a design of very long history. It's engine block could be stemmed back to the mid 20th century. Another American diesel by Continental, the AVCR-1360 was short-stroke but had a complex VGT design and needed a lot of its output used on cooling. French also had a short-stroke design in their SACM V8X but it also has a complex and expensive gas-turbine like turbo design for performance boost. MTU went from long-stroke in MB873 to short-stroke in MT883 but as I've said other German diesel manufacturers like MAN have some different approaches. So there's hardly a single answer when it comes to engine design, especially the bore-stroke ratio, unless we are talking about very specific purposes like motorsports or marine applications. For one the US went long-stroke with the Cummins ACE, although it should be noted that this thing is opposing piston so its characteristics are quite different from traditional diesel.


Apart from that, we could generally be happy about the fact that HHI took over DI.

 

[Chocopie]

I'm not sure on why you and Baljak are so obsessed about short-stroke engines.

Yes, their throttle response could be better since they are short-stroke but low-end torque always favors the long-stroke given equal-everything else. DV27K's problems/deficiencies were/are not caused due to its long-stroke design, but rather stems from the inferior design and manufacturing capabilities of Doosan Infracore in the field of heavy duty high-speed diesel engines. There are plenty of good long-stroke designs out there around the world.

As for the contemporary western Tanks the British use the long-stroke CV12 as well. Talking about square or short-stroke engines, for example the ADVS-1790 was a square engine, and was a design of very long history. It's engine block could be stemmed back to the mid 20th century. Another American diesel by Continental, the AVCR-1360 was short-stroke but had a complex VGT design and needed a lot of its output used on cooling. French also had a short-stroke design in their SACM V8X but it also has a complex and expensive gas-turbine like turbo design for performance boost. MTU went from long-stroke in MB873 to short-stroke in MT883 but as I've said other German diesel manufacturers like MAN have some different approaches. So there's hardly a single answer when it comes to engine design, especially the bore-stroke ratio, unless we are talking about very specific purposes like motorsports or marine applications. For one the US went long-stroke with the Cummins ACE, although it should be noted that this thing is opposing piston so its characteristics are quite different from traditional diesel.


Apart from that, we could generally be happy about the fact that HHI took over DI.

Not obsessed, I appreciate the compact size and lesser weight of MTU designed tank engines. It‘s a very good step that HHI acquired Doosan, an improvement in quality and capability will follow.

 

[Baljak]

I'm not sure on why you and Baljak are so obsessed about short-stroke engines.

Yes, their throttle response could be better since they are short-stroke but low-end torque always favors the long-stroke given equal-everything else. DV27K's problems/deficiencies were/are not caused due to its long-stroke design, but rather stems from the inferior design and manufacturing capabilities of Doosan Infracore in the field of heavy duty high-speed diesel engines. There are plenty of good long-stroke designs out there around the world.

As for the contemporary western Tanks the British use the long-stroke CV12 as well. Talking about square or short-stroke engines, for example the ADVS-1790 was a square engine, and was a design of very long history. It's engine block could be stemmed back to the mid 20th century. Another American diesel by Continental, the AVCR-1360 was short-stroke but had a complex VGT design and needed a lot of its output used on cooling. French also had a short-stroke design in their SACM V8X but it also has a complex and expensive gas-turbine like turbo design for performance boost. MTU went from long-stroke in MB873 to short-stroke in MT883 but as I've said other German diesel manufacturers like MAN have some different approaches. So there's hardly a single answer when it comes to engine design, especially the bore-stroke ratio, unless we are talking about very specific purposes like motorsports or marine applications. For one the US went long-stroke with the Cummins ACE, although it should be noted that this thing is opposing piston so its characteristics are quite different from traditional diesel.


Apart from that, we could generally be happy about the fact that HHI took over DI.

The reason I'm obsessed is correct and this is not wrong. We need to know about the concept of K2 Black Panther. K2 is not a Western MBT over 60 tons with a thick armour as we commonly know it.

K2 is less than 60 tons, hydropneumatic suspension with variable dampers, turrets designed to be extremely flat to reduce the chance of being hit, and maneuver tactics that retreat quickly after deploying the soft-kill active defense multi-spectral smoke grenade, all of which were demanded by the South Korean Army.

Unlike the previous K1, most of the major components in the K2 were designed to be extremely lightweight, and the purpose of all of these components was to provide mobility to operate in the rugged mountainous terrain of the Korean Peninsula.

It is clearly different from K2's design idea that the K2 uses the same 1500 horsepower engine as the Leopard, but is slower to accelerate than the Leopard, which is over 60 tons. This is also related to the obsolescence of Korea's current military engine technology. In addition to the Leopard 2 (6 second), M1A2 (7.2 Second) and Challenger you mentioned, Merkava also has a 32 km acceleration performance of 10 seconds. Because these tanks are not designed for maneuverability tactics like K2.

Post-attack defense and rapid retreat are the most important in the design concept pursued by the K2, and this is still at the heart of the Korean Army's mechanized maneuver tactics. The K2 is slower to accelerate than the M1 and Leopard, which weigh more than 65 tons, even though it was developed as a mobility tank. To this day, the K2 power pack, which many military experts in Korea point out, is still below the standard of the South Korean army's ROC. Really still does this look normal to you? Or am I abnormal?

It seems to me that you don't understand why the K2 should have a better engine and transmission than it does now. I think you need to read the post below seriously.

1500마력 전차의 가속력은 <6초>가 정상적

 

[Windchime]

The reason I'm obsessed is correct and this is not wrong. We need to know about the concept of K2 Black Panther. K2 is not a Western MBT over 60 tons with a thick armour as we commonly know it.

K2 is less than 60 tons, hydropneumatic suspension with variable dampers, turrets designed to be extremely flat to reduce the chance of being hit, and maneuver tactics that retreat quickly after deploying the soft-kill active defense multi-spectral smoke grenade, all of which were demanded by the South Korean Army.

Unlike the previous K1, most of the major components in the K2 were designed to be extremely lightweight, and the purpose of all of these components was to provide mobility to operate in the rugged mountainous terrain of the Korean Peninsula.

It is clearly different from K2's design idea that the K2 uses the same 1500 horsepower engine as the Leopard, but is slower to accelerate than the Leopard, which is over 60 tons. This is also related to the obsolescence of Korea's current military engine technology. In addition to the Leopard 2 (6 second), M1A2 (7.2 Second) and Challenger you mentioned, Merkava also has a 32 km acceleration performance of 10 seconds. Because these tanks are not designed for maneuverability tactics like K2.

Post-attack defense and rapid retreat are the most important in the design concept pursued by the K2, and this is still at the heart of the Korean Army's mechanized maneuver tactics. The K2 is slower to accelerate than the M1 and Leopard, which weigh more than 65 tons, even though it was developed as a mobility tank. To this day, the K2 power pack, which many military experts in Korea point out, is still below the standard of the South Korean army's ROC. Really still does this look normal to you? Or am I abnormal?

It seems to me that you don't understand why the K2 should have a better engine and transmission than it does now. I think you need to read the post below seriously.

1500마력 전차의 가속력은 <6초>가 정상적

Sorry but you're hitting a straw. Go back and read my posts again and you'll notice that not once that I've argued that the performance of the original Korean powerpack consisting of DV27K and EST15K as an acceptable performance. In fact its the opposite and I've clearly mentioned "problems" and "deficiencies" regarding the engine several times.

Also, the performance of the Korean-German hybrid powerpack consisting of RENK transmission was never disclosed publicly. You can't and should not judge the performance of DV27K based on the figures from mid 2010s since those figures were obtained coupled to a flawed transmission.

Moreover, everything I wrote was to debunk the misinformation you are spreading. If you want to say that you are "correct", go find a source to back it up. You currently have none.

1.) DV27K is based on a ship engine
- No, can't be more false.

2.) Engine from STX will be used for K2
- Also no. It's not even in their portofolio.

3.) Long-stroke is inferior to short-stroke
- Again no. That's not a given as I've described on my previous post. For instance the Leopard 2 acceleration figures that you are mentioning are obtained with a long-stroke MB873 engine. Add to that the M1 uses a gas turbine with superior low-end torque figures. If you want to argue that the K2 acceleration performance deficiencies compared to other contemporary western tanks are stemming from DV27K's long-stroke cylinder structure, you have to give a credible source.

You might be experts in armor but you clearly aren't an expert in powertrains.

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1838164393583952060

The tweet says that SK has broken free from Germans the government has accepted the domestic power group for K2

Is it true and what about the transmission ?

 

[Afif]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1838164393583952060

The tweet says that SK has broken free from Germans the government has accepted the domestic power group for K2

Is it true and what about the transmission ?

Powerpack include both the engine and the transmission. Both are included in the photo.

 

[Chocopie]

There‘re speculative reports on Korean business media, that Armenia is in secret negotiations to purchase K2 Black Thunder MBT from Hyundai Rotem or other weapons from South Korea.

If a deal comes true, that will strain the good economic relations with Azerbaijan and to an extent with Türkiye as well.

폴란드가 선택한 K2 전차, 아르메니아도 달릴까

폴란드가 선택한 K2 전차, 아르메니아도 달릴까 아르메니아, 구매 가능성 검토

biz.chosun.com

현대로템 K2전차 폴란드 넘어 아르메니아로, 이용배 방산 호조로 매출 역대 최대 4조 간다

현대로템 K2전차 폴란드 넘어 아르메니아로, 이용배 방산 호조로 매출 역대 최대 4조 간다

www.businesspost.co.kr

 

[Azeri441]

There‘re speculative reports on Korean business media, that Armenia is in secret negotiations to purchase K2 Black Thunder MBT from Hyundai Rotem or other weapons from South Korea.

If a deal comes true, that will strain the good economic relations with Azerbaijan and to an extent with Türkiye as well.

폴란드가 선택한 K2 전차, 아르메니아도 달릴까

폴란드가 선택한 K2 전차, 아르메니아도 달릴까 아르메니아, 구매 가능성 검토

biz.chosun.com

현대로템 K2전차 폴란드 넘어 아르메니아로, 이용배 방산 호조로 매출 역대 최대 4조 간다

현대로템 K2전차 폴란드 넘어 아르메니아로, 이용배 방산 호조로 매출 역대 최대 4조 간다

www.businesspost.co.kr

Highly doubt it, South Korea refused the multi-billion dollar deal proposed by Azerbaijan, as they wanted to remain neutral between Armenia and Azerbaijan, so I highly doubt they would go ahead and damage relations for a couple hundred million from Armenia.

 

[Chocopie]

Highly doubt it, South Korea refused the multi-billion dollar deal proposed by Azerbaijan, as they wanted to remain neutral between Armenia and Azerbaijan, so I highly doubt they would go ahead and damage relations for a couple hundred million from Armenia.

Maybe they‘re merely recycling Armenian media reports which borders on wishful thinking sometimes.

Usually Korea stays out of conflict zones like Azerbaijan-Armenia. At least that was the policy of administrations before. But the actual president is unpredictable and doesn‘t follow traditional Korean geopolitical rules.

 

[Azeri441]

Maybe they‘re merely recycling Armenian media reports which borders on wishful thinking sometimes.

Usually Korea stays out of conflict zones like Azerbaijan-Armenia. At least that was the policy of administrations before. But the actual president is unpredictable and doesn‘t follow traditional Korean geopolitical rules.

I do hope its true, Azerbaijan will just get more Spikes and order Altays to answer the purchase

 

[TR_123456]

There‘re speculative reports on Korean business media, that Armenia is in secret negotiations to purchase K2 Black Thunder MBT from Hyundai Rotem or other weapons from South Korea.

If a deal comes true, that will strain the good economic relations with Azerbaijan and to an extent with Türkiye as well.

폴란드가 선택한 K2 전차, 아르메니아도 달릴까

폴란드가 선택한 K2 전차, 아르메니아도 달릴까 아르메니아, 구매 가능성 검토

biz.chosun.com

현대로템 K2전차 폴란드 넘어 아르메니아로, 이용배 방산 호조로 매출 역대 최대 4조 간다

현대로템 K2전차 폴란드 넘어 아르메니아로, 이용배 방산 호조로 매출 역대 최대 4조 간다

www.businesspost.co.kr

This cant be true,impossible.
South-Korea wouldnt risk the relationship with Türkiye.

 

[Chocopie]

This cant be true,impossible.
South-Korea wouldnt risk the relationship with Türkiye.

Pres. Yoon aims to become Global Top 4 arms exporter, that fool will do anything stupid for it. His approval ratings are basement level at lowest 20% and corruption allegations against his wife … any weapons deal news would help him to raise public opinion.

And in international relations, even when Türkiye is an important partner beyond defense, national interests comes first. Unfortunately we‘ll have to see if these reports are credible or nonsense.

 

[TR_123456]

Pres. Yoon aims to become Global Top 4 arms exporter, that fool will do anything stupid for it. His approval ratings are basement level at lowest 20% and corruption allegations against his wife … any weapons deal news would help him to raise public opinion.

And in international relations, even when Türkiye is an important partner beyond defense, national interests comes first. Unfortunately we‘ll have to see if these reports are credible or nonsense.

But risk such a relationship for a meager $100/200 million at most(cant afford more)?
He cant be that stupid.
Btw,France would be happy to provide Armenia with everything it needs and probably even for free.

 

[Chocopie]

But risk such a relationship for a meager $100/200 million at most(cant afford more)?
He cant be that stupid.
Btw,France would be happy to provide Armenia with everything it needs and probably even for free.

Take into account that US and Europe are ramping up Armenian defense budget with funds since they distanced themselves from Russia. There‘s more to come, the US won‘t miss the chance to set a foothold in Putin‘s soft belly neighborhood.

https://eurasianet.org/us-to-help-armenia-modernize-its-military

 

[Saithan]

I don't think their purchase will matter tbh. And should it happened and conflict arises again, do anyone here thinks it's going to matter how and what they buy in the face of tb2, Akinci, harop and such things. How are they going to supply Armenia, through which airspace ?

Too many other things just says it's smoke being blown up everyone s asses.

Besides Türkiye doesn't have an alternative supplier to SK.

 

[Chocopie]

I don't think their purchase will matter tbh. And should it happened and conflict arises again, do anyone here thinks it's going to matter how and what they buy in the face of tb2, Akinci, harop and such things. How are they going to supply Armenia, through which airspace ?

Too many other things just says it's smoke being blown up everyone s asses.

Besides Türkiye doesn't have an alternative supplier to SK.

That‘s imo a different matter about military capabilities of Azerbaijan and Armenia.

Main focus is: Will ROK sell K2 tanks to Armenia and estrange relationships with Azerbaijan and Ankara?

 

[Windchime]

But risk such a relationship for a meager $100/200 million at most(cant afford more)?
He cant be that stupid.
Btw,France would be happy to provide Armenia with everything it needs and probably even for free.

Take into account that US and Europe are ramping up Armenian defense budget with funds since they distanced themselves from Russia. There‘s more to come, the US won‘t miss the chance to set a foothold in Putin‘s soft belly neighborhood.

https://eurasianet.org/us-to-help-armenia-modernize-its-military

Yeah, a major military acquisition also comes with an expectation that it would improve diplomatic ties. In case of Armenia, if they really are looking for a major tank acquisition, they would rather turn to Europe, since they would want as much support as they can get from the West in case there's another standoff against Azerbaijan. Korea can't really provide anything in terms of a middleman in this dynamic, the distance is simply just too far. Also we import gas and oil from Azeri oil and gas fields.

So both countries don't really have the good reason to buy and sell K2 to Armenia, unless simply getting those tanks sold is your goal. Then again, Armenia is not a country that has a large arms demand.

I don't think their purchase will matter tbh. And should it happened and conflict arises again, do anyone here thinks it's going to matter how and what they buy in the face of tb2, Akinci, harop and such things. How are they going to supply Armenia, through which airspace ?

Too many other things just says it's smoke being blown up everyone s asses.

Besides Türkiye doesn't have an alternative supplier to SK.

Supplying weapons during the conflict is secondary question. The actual problem is the lack of credible SAM force as you have described. Without air power, it's just perfect condition for drones to do their job. If anything, they better be importing air defense systems from Europe first before any tanks.

 

[urban mine]

The ROK Army is conducting joint exercises in Qatar. Good to see them in the desert.

 

[Chocopie]

4th production batch of K2 gets a 100% Korean power pack

SNT Dynamics EST-15K transmission endurance test conducted from April to Juni 2024.

Korean requirement: continious operation time without failure
320 hours = 304 hours reached
or
9,600km = 9,200km reached
Due to a brake system stoppage the transmission reached 95-96% of test target.

Don‘t wanna go too deep into the controversy of Korean DAPA power pack requirements which were adapted from US M1 Abrams tests. But without basic regular maintenance like re-filling liquids for engine or transmission which were allowed in US but not in Korea.

Therefore SNT protested that these guidelines were nearly impossible. The German Renk transmission never took the Korean test either. Their NATO-compliant test certificates were blindly accepted by DAPA. Albeit NATO test specs are similar but in some aspects different to US requirements.

So, in the end, with quality assurances from SNT and expanded warranty time the next 150 K2 Black Thunder will be finally produced with 100% power pack after 20 years of development.
대한민국 만세!

Green light for the Korean power-pack for K2 tanks – MILMAG

South Korea's Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) has approved the production of a tank power-pack consisting of the HD Hyundai Doosan Infracore DV27K diesel engine and the SNT Dynamics EST15K transmission.

milmag.pl

S. Korea to use homegrown transmission for K2 tanks | Yonhap News Agency

SEOUL, Oct. 28 (Yonhap) -- South Korea's defense authorities approved on Monday a pla...

m-en.yna.co.kr

K2 전차 엔진 100% 국산화한다…軍, 국산 변속기 장착 결정

군이 도입할 K2 전차에 국산 변속기를 장착한다. 이에 따라 전차의 ‘심장’으로 불리는 파워팩(엔진+변속기)이 모두 국산화된다. 방위사업청은 28일 제164회 방위사업추진위원회를 열어 K2전차 4차 양산 1500마력 변속기 적용안을 심의·의결했다. 기존에 제작된 K2에는 국산...

m.segye.com

 

[urban mine]

4th production batch of K2 gets a 100% Korean power pack

SNT Dynamics EST-15K transmission endurance test conducted from April to Juni 2024.

Korean requirement: continious operation time without failure
320 hours = 304 hours reached
or
9,600km = 9,200km reached
Due to a brake system stoppage the transmission reached 95-96% of test target.

Don‘t wanna go too deep into the controversy of Korean DAPA power pack requirements which were adapted from US M1 Abrams tests. But without basic regular maintenance like re-filling liquids for engine or transmission which were allowed in US but not in Korea.

Therefore SNT protested that these guidelines were nearly impossible. The German Renk transmission never took the Korean test either. Their NATO-compliant test certificates were blindly accepted by DAPA. Albeit NATO test specs are similar but in some aspects different to US requirements.

So, in the end, with quality assurances from SNT and expanded warranty time the next 150 K2 Black Thunder will be finally produced with 100% power pack after 20 years of development.
대한민국 만세!

Green light for the Korean power-pack for K2 tanks – MILMAG

South Korea's Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) has approved the production of a tank power-pack consisting of the HD Hyundai Doosan Infracore DV27K diesel engine and the SNT Dynamics EST15K transmission.

milmag.pl

S. Korea to use homegrown transmission for K2 tanks | Yonhap News Agency

SEOUL, Oct. 28 (Yonhap) -- South Korea's defense authorities approved on Monday a pla...

m-en.yna.co.kr

K2 전차 엔진 100% 국산화한다…軍, 국산 변속기 장착 결정

군이 도입할 K2 전차에 국산 변속기를 장착한다. 이에 따라 전차의 ‘심장’으로 불리는 파워팩(엔진+변속기)이 모두 국산화된다. 방위사업청은 28일 제164회 방위사업추진위원회를 열어 K2전차 4차 양산 1500마력 변속기 적용안을 심의·의결했다. 기존에 제작된 K2에는 국산...

m.segye.com

It's been a long time. I'm glad it was adopted now. Rather than simply rejoicing over the decision, the SNT should respond faithfully to the demands of the military and build credibility going forward.