TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Trakya_forever]

It has to fly at high altitude.

 

[Hexciter]

 

[Dmr]

Does anyone have any clue what happened to Roketsan's CIDA missile project?Seems like it is cancelled since nothing has emerged about it for over a year now.Too bad,looked like a nice weapon.

Technical Specifications​

Diameter	90 mm
Length	1 m
Weight	7.5 kg
Range	50-750 m
Seeker	Command to Line-of-Sight (CLOS) Semi-Active Laser
Warhead Types	Thermobaric Multi-Purpose Warhead (Blast Fragmentation Incendiary and Armor Piercing) High-Explosive Blast Fragmentation

 

[Siper>MMU]

Does anyone have any clue what happened to Roketsan's CIDA missile project?Seems like it is cancelled since nothing has emerged about it for over a year now.Too bad,looked like a nice weapon.

View attachment 44078

Technical Specifications​

Diameter	90 mm
Length	1 m
Weight	7.5 kg
Range	50-750 m
Seeker	Command to Line-of-Sight (CLOS) Semi-Active Laser
Warhead Types	Thermobaric Multi-Purpose Warhead (Blast Fragmentation Incendiary and Armor Piercing) High-Explosive Blast Fragmentation

Cancelled

 

[Glass🚬]

why

 

[Defence Industry Enjoyer]

why

Random theory

ATGMs already are headache as is. Maybe cancelled not to encourage others developing better anti-personnel missiles which can end up in the region?

As example, MAM requires air platform etc, at least there is barrier to acquisition so random organizations cannot have it.

They could want to balance between cost, platform and tech barrier to prevent that.

 

[Glass🚬]

Random theory

ATGMs already are headache as is. Maybe cancelled not to encourage others developing better anti-personnel missiles which can end up in the region?

As example, MAM requires air platform etc, at least there is barrier to acquisition so random organizations cannot have it.

They could want to balance between cost, platform and tech barrier to prevent that.

doesnt make sense tbh.

 

[Defence Industry Enjoyer]

doesnt make sense tbh.

Current common ATGMs used in the region are 3rd generation. SACLOS missiles like Kornet. Launcher with electro optics is the largest cost but obtainable. 15+ attacks in Iraq against Turkey alone from open sources.

New generation is fire and forget missiles like Javelin. High tech, high cost. Requires specialized training. High profile weapon. Not a type of weapon they can give out like AT4s. Only potential source appears to be U.S. But U.S/EU focused on more higher end systems.

Russia and Iran cannot develop or outfield 4th gen due to cost and tech limitations. Even if Iran develop cheap system with commercial parts etc, they wouldn't be able to flood it to market. They could give small amounts similar to state sponsored Manpads systems.

France wants to develop TB2 like drone now along with much higher cost platforms. Potentially UK, UAE and more. TB2 is an innovation in terms of cost, asymmetrical capability. US, EU was supposed to operate 30+ million dollar each, UAVs.

Yes not the same fields but what if US/EU etc. develops their own CIDA after we prove its effectiveness, all in one solution and supposedly much better against personnel than 3rd gen ATGMs. Then floods it to Middle East market.

Basically arguing some fields should have the bar kept high or left alone in purpose so it would not end up easily in the field against us.

We will see what will happen to equipment of Ukraine War, post war. Older gen likely would end up in black market. Newer gen unlikely because of the reasons stated above.

 

[Hexciter]

why

During the introduction in the IDEF’19 fair, one officer commented to be heavy for its purpose. (If not I remember wrong)

 

[Glass🚬]

During the introduction in the IDEF’19 fair, one officer commented to be heavy for its purpose. (If not I remember wrong)

makes sense

 

[TheInsider]

CIDA is not a priority but Roketsan has to develop a next-generation NLAW class ATGM to complete the ATGM family.

 

[Heartbang]

CIDA is not a priority but Roketsan has to develop a next-generation NLAW class ATGM to complete the ATGM family.

NLAW's range is rather short compared to Javelin. are you sure we need a NLAW type missile?

 

[UkroTurk]

NLAW is unguided rocket however it costs more expensive ($40k) than some laser guided ATGMs. Ukraine uses laser guided Stugno-P ATGMs successfully.

While Stugno-P complex 100kg , CİDA might be lighter.

There is also lighter variant of Stugna: Corsar which weights 26kg.

Why missing this- long range relatively cheap ATGM- opportunity i can't understand?

EDIT:

CİDA appears to have just 750m range.

Also it weighs just 7.5 kg. CİDA's range could be improved , adding some rocket engine. 20-25 kg weight would be okay like javelin.

Belarusian Shershen Light is great example of man portable Laser guided ATGM.

Shershen-L - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TheInsider]

NLAW is not unguided. It has PLOS guidance and top attack capability.

NLAW class doesn't necessarily mean NLAW itself. I mentioned NLAW because it is popular nowadays.

We need a light cost-effective anti-tank missile up to 1km range. A next-generation NLAW class ATGM.
We also need a dirt-cheap light antitank+multi purpose munition/rocket up to 500m range. Several of the rounds should be easily carried by a single soldier. A next-generation RPG.

 

[Hexciter]

NLAW is not unguided. It has PLOS guidance and top attack capability.

NLAW class doesn't necessarily mean NLAW itself. I mentioned NLAW because it is popular nowadays.

We need a light cost-effective anti-tank missile up to 1km range. A next-generation NLAW class ATGM.
We also need a dirt-cheap light antitank+multi purpose munition/rocket up to 500km range. Several of the rounds should be easily carried by a single soldier. A next-generation RPG.

NLAW like Spike-SR has INS inside. Not a dump rocket but Hits like how smart bombs work in INS only mode.

 

[TheInsider]

True but there is more to it. It has an algorithm-based prediction capability. The shooter tracks the target for a few seconds and when the missile is fired it travels to the predicted location of the target based on the tracking data.

 

[Dmr]

Current common ATGMs used in the region are 3rd generation. SACLOS missiles like Kornet. Launcher with electro optics is the largest cost but obtainable. 15+ attacks in Iraq against Turkey alone from open sources.

New generation is fire and forget missiles like Javelin. High tech, high cost. Requires specialized training. High profile weapon. Not a type of weapon they can give out like AT4s. Only potential source appears to be U.S. But U.S/EU focused on more higher end systems.

Russia and Iran cannot develop or outfield 4th gen due to cost and tech limitations. Even if Iran develop cheap system with commercial parts etc, they wouldn't be able to flood it to market. They could give small amounts similar to state sponsored Manpads systems.

France wants to develop TB2 like drone now along with much higher cost platforms. Potentially UK, UAE and more. TB2 is an innovation in terms of cost, asymmetrical capability. US, EU was supposed to operate 30+ million dollar each, UAVs.

Yes not the same fields but what if US/EU etc. develops their own CIDA after we prove its effectiveness, all in one solution and supposedly much better against personnel than 3rd gen ATGMs. Then floods it to Middle East market.

Basically arguing some fields should have the bar kept high or left alone in purpose so it would not end up easily in the field against us.

We will see what will happen to equipment of Ukraine War, post war. Older gen likely would end up in black market. Newer gen unlikely because of the reasons stated above.

Ummm...I don't know where to even start.First off CIDA is not an ATGM in fact it's pretty useless against any modern tank.It is thermobaric launcher most effective against structures or light vehicles.Second there are already a bunch of such weapons in the region,Azerbaijan,Iran,Bulgaria all produce similar weapons.
Comparing it to Javelin or NLAW is ridiculous.
And western countries have used shoulder launched thermobaric weapons(that have more range than CIDA btw) for decades now including Iraq and Afghanistan.
As far as ATMG's go I am also pretty sure that with the number of Javelins and NLAW's Russia captured in Ukraine it won't take long before we see Russian(and possibly Iranian) made versions of those weapons.With different names of course.

 

[UkroTurk]

NLAW has Javelin's warhead so NLAW is unguided Javelin.

The most lethal feature of NLAW is top attack capability with big warhead!



Turkish NLAW would be unguided OMTAS with PLOS..

5 facts about Saab´s NLAW anti-tank system | Stories | Saab

Did you know...?

www.saab.com

 

[Defence Industry Enjoyer]

Ummm...I don't know where to even start.First off CIDA is not an ATGM in fact it's pretty useless against any modern tank.It is thermobaric launcher most effective against structures or light vehicles.Second there are already a bunch of such weapons in the region,Azerbaijan,Iran,Bulgaria all produce similar weapons.
Comparing it to Javelin or NLAW is ridiculous.
And western countries have used shoulder launched thermobaric weapons(that have more range than CIDA btw) for decades now including Iraq and Afghanistan.
As far as ATMG's go I am also pretty sure that with the number of Javelins and NLAW's Russia captured in Ukraine it won't take long before we see Russian(and possibly Iranian) made versions of those weapons.With different names of course.

Bulgaria produces higher quality, Soviet design weapons. Including with different capabilities, Serbia, Croatia, Romania. Their products mostly limited to copies of small arms and light weapons.

Iran offers wide range of weapons that is supplied to their proxies and end up on market.

Although these countries are supplying to Syrian conflict and middle east market. Their offerings do not pass curtain tech and if we are to generalize, 3rd gen systems.

4th gen system like Javelin. Includes advanced development of IIR and E/O sensors. Propulsion systems, specialized warhead. Embedded systems, software. Specialized launching unit.

Russia does not have the tech infrastructure to develop missile in par with Javelin. Even if they did with similar system, they wouldn't be able flood to middle east because of costs. Same with Iran.

Turkey's terrain is mountainous. Shoulder launched weapons are already being used ever since the conflict. They have limited range and accuracy. Require closer engagement. Which is not sustainable for PKK with Turkey's increased capabilities.

ATGMS like Kornet allow hit and run attacks. Which allow to preserve casualties. Giving time to escape including with the launcher. It takes 2 persons at least to carry. with munitions. Around 3000m attacks.

CIDA in concept goes between shoulder launched unguided weapons and ATGMs. Increased accuracy. Small enough to be carried and operated with 1 person. Easy guidance requires minimal training. Paired with potential low costs of acquisition.

While ATGM operator needs to trained, which would be in Syria or 3rd country by PKK. Increased logistical problems in the organization. Potentially less attacks.

Basically why encourage sub class of a new system that could easily end up against us in the field? As stated in my previous comment. Some fields should have their bar kept high in purpose. Indirect form of arms control. By not encouraging by proving its effectiveness. Similar to TB2 analogy I've made.

 

[Era_shield]

NLAW has Javelin's warhead so NLAW is unguided Javelin.

The most lethal feature of NLAW is top attack capability with big warhead!



Turkish NLAW would be unguided OMTAS with PLOS..

5 facts about Saab´s NLAW anti-tank system | Stories | Saab

Did you know...?

www.saab.com

NLAW is not unguided, it uses inertial guidance. It doesn't use the Javelin warhead either, which unlike the NLAW's has tandem charges.