TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Yasar_TR]

Now Tayfun Block 3, however debated it may be, adds a ballistic/hypersonic ASBM layer at the other end of the spectrum. So we have two ends, one crawling under the radar horizon at subsonic speed, the other coming down from above at hypersonic terminal velocity as a ballistic weapon.

No one can question the hypersonic speed with which this missile travels during it‘s midcourse. Infact all of the Tayfun blocks travel at hypersonic speeds during mid course..

For block 3 we haven’t come across anybody calling it a hypersonic weapon. (A hypersonic weapon, as well as travelling at hypersonic speeds, can perform manoeuvres to evade AD systems. It will also hit target at hypersonic velocity).

Yet, it is mentioned that in terminal phase it travels at hypersonic speeds. Terminal phase is when missile starts its downward dive to earth. And it could be up to 60 to 90 km.
Until the missile reaches around 20 to 15km altitude, it can reach hypersonic speeds due to rarified air and low drag. This is valid for most ballistic missiles of this type. But after 20km altitude it would start losing speed due to higher drag and as governed by the terminal velocity formula.
Biggest parameter that affects higher speed is missile mass. Normally 65% to 70% of the missile’s mass is fuel. Since before terminal phase it would have depleted all this fuel, it‘s mass will not play as much a decisive factor on speed as expected.
The only way to achieve hypersonic or close to hypersonic impact is to fire up the rocket engine again just before the 20km altitude for around 9 seconds.
Block 4 is supposed to impact target at hypersonic speeds, as clearly mentioned by Mr İkinci. It is also mentioned as a hypersonic weapon.
Block 3 details have not been revealed yet. So it is too early to speculate on it’s technical specifications.

 

[Anmdt]

But we don’t see any movement of the ship. No trail footage..

It wasn't anchored, free to move - along with the stream and the wind. It wasn't a moving or self propelled, as in maneuvering.
It has an active, also (possibly) mechanically steered AESA seeker to initiate a track prior to the terminal phase. The motion of the target matters the least after initiating the track.

 

[Anmdt]

Bro, fantastic news that they are working on an anti ship ballistic missile. But don’t get too enthusiastic yet.
1. The target was not moving.
2. Have they confirmed the terminal speed to be hypersonic?
3. Did the missile contain explosives?

1. it is a different cattle of fish to hit a moving target. That will come in time. This probably was GOLIS impact.
2. & 3. If the terminal speed was hypersonic, The impact video is awesome. It does look like a very high speed impact.
If the terminal speed was hypersonic, how did they achieve it?

Our dreams are starting to become reality!

The target wasn't anchored, hence they only fed the initial position / velocity data to the missile (possibly with the update before the terminal phase for tracking). There was an uncertainty of the vessel position when missile initiated a scan / track. That is being the whole point of the test, it doesn't need an actually maneuvering target to simulate this.

The missile had explosives, it is HE fragmented warhead to disable mainly sensors, and any personnel present on the deck. A disabled ship in distress worth more than a sunk one.

The speed is typically hypersonic during the terminal phase of ballistic missiles of these kind. And i believe, at the very last part of the terminal phase the sensor is knocked out from the heat stress, little that does matter since it lasts a few seconds, and a boat would move 30-40 meters during the given span and sway less than it.

 

[Pokemonte13]

The missile had explosives, it is HE fragmented warhead to disable mainly sensors, and any personnel present on the deck. A disabled ship in distress worth more than a sunk one.

Predator tactics. Wound him and make him call out for help

 

[Yasar_TR]

The target wasn't anchored,

If the target wasn’t anchored, it would be free to move if there were surface currents. According to naval info, normal rim currents in Black Sea varies from 0.2m/sec to 0.5m/sec.
We don’t know the range of flight of this test. But if it were ~560km as per first Tayfun test, the flight time would be 6-7 minutes. That means the boat will have moved around 150 metres away from it’s original position when the missile was launched if we take a mean value of 0.35m/sec.
So, if course correction data during flight was conveyed to the missile, it could have calculated where exactly the boat would be at impact. This is similar to giving details of a ship travelling at 30 knots in a given direction. In 6 minutes time the missile can know where it would be. (As long as the ship doesn’t know it is being targeted and performs random evasive course changes)

The speed is typically hypersonic during the terminal phase of ballistic missiles of these kind.

As explained in my above post, the “terminal phase” is a broad term. When the missile starts to dive down to earth, it is at the start of its terminal phase. This phase can be any thing from 60km to 90km (assuming this is a quasi-ballistic missile with suppressed trajectory). To have impact velocity in the order of 5 Mach this sort of missile needs re-ignition before 20km altitude. Otherwise the impact velocity will be at low supersonic speeds as governed by the terminal velocity laws.

 

[UkroTurk]

If the target wasn’t anchored, it would be free to move if there were surface currents. According to naval info, normal rim currents in Black Sea varies from 0.2m/sec to 0.5m/sec.
We don’t know the range of flight of this test. But if it were ~560km as per first Tayfun test, the flight time would be 6-7 minutes. That means the boat will have moved around 150 metres away from it’s original position when the missile was launched if we take a mean value of 0.35m/sec.
So, if course correction data during flight was conveyed to the missile, it could have calculated where exactly the boat would be at impact. This is similar to giving details of a ship travelling at 30 knots in a given direction. In 6 minutes time the missile can know where it would be. (As long as the ship doesn’t know it is being targeted and performs random evasive course changes)


As explained in my above post, the “terminal phase” is a broad term. When the missile starts to dive down to earth, it is at the start of its terminal phase. This phase can be any thing from 60km to 90km (assuming this is a quasi-ballistic missile with suppressed trajectory). To have impact velocity in the order of 5 Mach this sort of missile needs re-ignition before 20km altitude. Otherwise the impact velocity will be at low supersonic speeds as governed by the terminal velocity laws.

So do you mean: there was no homing guidance, no seekers , the missile hit via command guidance? Did I miss understand you?

 

[Yasar_TR]

So do you mean: there was no homing guidance, no seekers , the missile hit via command guidance? Did I miss understand you?

You misunderstood I think.
I was elaborating and guessing over @Anmdt ’s post regarding the guidance.
My line of thought was that if the boat was free and was drifting with current, it would be doing that within a specific drift pattern and either the missile’s guidance or another source feeding it with time based coordinates may have shown the missile where the boat was going to be at the time of impact.
I honestly don’t know what type of guidance was used in this test. But whatever it was it helped guide the missile for a bulls eye impact.
The gist of our posts was to do with the fact that this test was no different than targeting a boat that was moving at 20-30 knots.

 

[Saithan]

I prefer believing that the seeker found the vessel within it's range mid course or terminal phase and adjusted accordingly and hit the boat. That alone would make Tayfun a very useful missile.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I prefer believing that the seeker found the vessel within it's range mid course or terminal phase and adjusted accordingly and hit the boat. That alone would make Tayfun a very useful missile.

In a real world firing, a standard anti-ship ballistic missile uses a multi-stage guidance process:
During mid-course it would be guided by inertial navigation by satellite updates to reach the general area of the target.Then the on board radar or IR seekers or both take over for terminal guidance. In certain cases the terminal guidance is done in conjunction with IIR (electro optical) systems. But due to hypersonic speeds causing extreme heat, this is a problematic system. Optical systems can be shielded and are made available during the very last instances to overcome heat problems to make use of their high accuracy..

We do not know what type of guidance Tayfun Block 3 uses. But if it can have midcourse data link to make course corrections or given target info by third party long range Aesa radars, then it’s accuracy would be greatly enhanced.

But for this test if we do a quick calculation (Bakkal hesabı) :

A 12 meter long boat, moving/drifting at may be 1 or 2 knot speed was hit with bulls eye accuracy.

A 120 meter frigate sailing at 10 to 20 knots can and should also be hit with at least the same accuracy.

In fact the frigate should be easier to hit as it’s RCS would be bigger, it’s overall area much bigger than the 12m boat and it’s IR signature would be much higher.

 

[boredaf]

1.6 billion dollars Kara Atmaca order being signed in the NATO summit. Did it already have a procurement deal or is this the first?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2074414152538333240

That is not what it says there. Whole initiative is valued at 1.6 billion, not our Kara Atmaca order, which is just our part of it.

 

[MonteCarlo]

That is not what it says there. Whole initiative is valued at 1.6 billion, not our Kara Atmaca order, which is just our part of it.

Yeah, thanks for the correction I didn't notice the last part

 

[Pokemonte13]

These info presentation dont even make sense as Diehl defence doesn't have any strike products to offer and the greeks as well as the french would commit suicide before buying something from us.

 

[Pokemonte13]

These are just national contracts and have nothing to do with nato procurement

 

[Fatman17]

Türkiye has transformed its guided-weapons sector, developing an increasingly capable portfolio of ballistic and cruise missiles driven by regional threats and broader defence-industrial ambitions.

Sıtkı Egeli & Arda Mevlütoğlu

Our latest #MissileDialogueInitiative research report examines Ankara’s missile strategy and future ambitions: go.iiss.org/42C3kHj.

 

[TheInsider]

We are probably buying ~1000 Kara Atmaca cruise missiles

 

[Pokemonte13]

We are probably buying ~1000 Kara Atmaca cruise missiles

less maybe around 500 depending on how much of that 1.6 billion is our part. Still don't know what diehl defence has to contribute?

 

[MonteCarlo]

less maybe around 500 depending on how much of that 1.6 billion is our part. Still don't know what diehl defence has to contribute?

I don't think diehl has anything to do with us. 1.6 billion dollar is total amount of NATO land strike procurement(including 155mm, Kara Atamca, barracuda-500 etc.). Our deal is with Roketsan, Diehl could be taking part in Co-production of other missiles or 155mm production unrelated to us

 

[TheInsider]

less maybe around 500 depending on how much of that 1.6 billion is our part. Still don't know what diehl defence has to contribute?

I'm not talking about todays NATO announcement. Turkish Land Forces will buy ~1000 Kara Atmaca cruise missiles in phases this is decided. I don't know How many of them are related to NATO.

I expect ~40 batteries with 3x launch vehicles.

 

[MonteCarlo]

Tayfun block 3 will enter Navy inventory this year. I wasn't expecting that at all, huge news.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2074520713831104519

 

[TheInsider]

Tayfun block 3 will enter Navy inventory this year. I wasn't expecting that at all, huge news.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2074520713831104519

Correct. It was certainly not the first test. IMHO, this was the last test of the prototype qualification. After this deliveries will start and a random serial production missile will be tested among the first delivered products. This is called an acceptance test.

I think the Navy should invest in this missile. We should put Tayfun block 3 on board Navy ships ASAP. Roketsan should do studies to see whether it is possible to integrate Tayfun Block 3 to Midlas VLS, or whether it is possible to replace some of the harpoon launchers on the deck. Tayfun 3 should also be a part of the Barbaros Coastal Defense System.