TR Naval Programs

Afif

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Not much TBH. Which is about the same as your "there's no point fighting, just give up and assume the position" flavored point of view.

Even the mightiest fall. That's the way it is. I suggest you don't get carried away too much.

Becuase USA ain't planning any fight with Turkey either. I am just saying, making real world strategy recommendations based on pure hypothetical scenarios is not a good idea.
 
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boredaf

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Not much TBH. Which is about the same as your "there's no point fighting, just give up and assume the position" flavored point of view.

Even the mightiest fall. That's the way it is. I suggest you don't get carried away too much.
It wasn't what they were saying at all, you were just trying to get offended mate. And they were right. We are never, ever going to get on equal grounds with US navy ship for ship. We need to build our navy according to our needs in our waters, not on meaningless plans of fighting a naval war against US.
 

Heartbang

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Becuase USA ain't planning any fight with Turkey either.
Yeah, because they're already fighting that fight. In Levant. They just use proxies.
You are making strategy recommendations based on pure hypothetical speculation.
Competent military forces don't have the luxury of deciding what's hypothetical and what's not. The US had prepared plans for invading the UK right after WW2.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red)
They didn't speculate on if its likely or not, they just planned it and prepared for it. That's how it is, how it should be for us as well.
And they were right. We are never, ever going to get on equal grounds with US navy ship for ship.
"Successful" wars rarely get to be equal affairs. American military enthusiasts often brag about how unfair they fight, bringing 100 million dollar jets to dogfights with MIG-21s and using multi-million dollar drones to kill carpet salesmen. Its part of their playbook to win.
We need to build our navy according to our needs in our waters
Which is to defend the motherland against outside threats, right?
 

Angry Turk !!!

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Yeah, because they're already fighting that fight. In Levant. They just use proxies.

Competent military forces don't have the luxury of deciding what's hypothetical and what's not. The US had prepared plans for invading the UK right after WW2.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red)
They didn't speculate on if its likely or not, they just planned it and prepared for it. That's how it is, how it should be for us as well.

"Successful" wars rarely get to be equal affairs. American military enthusiasts often brag about how unfair they fight, bringing 100 million dollar jets to dogfights with MIG-21s and using multi-million dollar drones to kill carpet salesmen. Its part of their playbook to win.

Which is to defend the motherland against outside threats, right?
Two super powers together with their vassals thought they can smash the Turks. But nope, our forefathers kicked their and their vassals teeth in while we were at our weakest.

A non Turk can NEVER understand the mindset of a Turk no matter what arguments they bring. No one can invade and hold Anatolia successfully.
 

dBSPL

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Let me say one thing: If Turkiye enters into a direct and total war against a superpower, it will be called a world war. That war will never, ever be regional. And the economic consequences will be devastating. The political order in the world will be shaken, let alone the government in the attacking country...

There are some things that will not change in the history of the mankind, one of them is that the world will collapse if necessary, but the Turks will somehow continue to exist as a state in the new world that will be created. We have never been a very rich people, even during the most glorious empires the Turkish people lived with great hardship. The unique feature of the Turkish people is not the prosperity they create, but the fact that if you mess with them they destroy your prosperity. This is not a patriotic thing I am saying, but facts that have been proven again and again as long as history has existed.
 

Anmdt

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They went for a no CIWS configuration a la British. It carries 16 CAMM-ERs though.
There is CIWS on Babur. It is not installed yet. Should have arrived at shipyard too.

Looking at the way you are thinking to get to the overall cost of these ships , I wouldn’t start counting my chickens yet @Afif . There isn’t enough information about the contents of the agreement to decide how much each ship is going to cost.
These ships could cost anything from 400 to 550 million dollars depending on the equipment they are fitted with and the effect of inflation over the next 3 years.
Remember that they will also have at least 3 major modern radar systems on board. There will be Sonars and EW systems. Also there is that new MIDLAS system with tens of VLS missiles. There will be 16 Atmaca missiles, CWIS, STOP guns and possibly a Turkish RAM alternative point defence system ( Us version costs around 25 million dollars). Don’t forget the torpedoes and counter measure systems.
The Hisar Class OPVs being built which are the smaller version of these ships, in almost naked state will cost around 110 million dollars.
Ada Class corvette‘s cost to the Navy is around 260 million dollars. And it has only limited number of self defence (RAM and main gun) and assault weapons.
  • Hull construction, anything except weapon - sensor systems costs nearly as $180 (revised to 130) to 200 (revised to 150) million. *
  • Sensors provided by Aselsan costs $95 million per ship. This value does not include integration (+$5 million). **
  • Other systems like CMS, IDS, consoles etc. and integration costs of these, $30 to 50 million including integration.
  • Price of MKEK 76mm, MILDAS is not known yet. Neither the companies know an exact price. I am giving these $15 to 30 million without ammunition, missiles.

$325 (revised to 275) to 380 (revised to 340) million is a possible range without spendables. ***

Considering 16 Atmaca, 64 Hisar-D (as visioned for I-Class) , ammunition for 76 + 25 + 35 mm cannons would cost $100 (revised to 70) million, safely.

$425 (revised to 350) to 490 (revised to 415) million is a possible range with full load. And also a fair price point. For export this price would go up to $400 to 450 million.

* Ada Class was $100 million excluding the inflation, inflation is nearly %50 in USD during the last 15 years + a larger hull, mast, additional equipment etc. For more information refer to SSB reports in earlier times (2010).
** This price is heavily bargained and subsidized as a result of R&D costs funded by SSB, Aselsan may not be profiting at all, also not including every system that Aselsan delivers.
*** Range varies because Tübitak also delivers some components like, de-gaussing system, wet-end of sonar etc. there are also others that were not mentioned among the big ones.

Provided a revision. Turns out certain items cost less than what it costed with First Ada Classes, excluding the inflation.
 
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Afif

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If I class cost $550 millions, then it is definitely out of option for BN's frigate program.

Chinese type-54B or arrowhead-140 for $350-400 millions looks more reasonable for our context. (Specially, arrowhead with very good growth potential)

Or we need to get some very downgraded version of one of Milgem designs. Which I guess, is not a good idea.
 

Anmdt

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If I class cost $550 millions, then it is definitely out of option for BN's frigate program.

Chinese type-54B or arrowhead-140 for $350-400 millions looks more reasonable for our context. (Specially, arrowhead with very good growth potential)

Or we need to get some very downgraded version of one of Milgem designs. Which I guess, is not a good idea.
That is an all included price with weapons, ammunition and spare of spendables (also training).

You can't get the same weapons and payload for the same price as in 'all included' deal. Arrowhead with a similar configuration costs as high as $700-800 million (See Poland, the final amount). Type 54B also, with all-included price goes higher than I-Class.

The price tag of naval vessels are deceiving. Some builders prefer to use ship + basic sensors + basic weapons package without the integration costs, which is actually about or less than $300 million for I-Class. Anything extra is added on top of the price, as well as the integration and training.

What will it be?
Gokdeniz. Signed, Sealed and Delivered.
 

dBSPL

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There is CIWS on Babur. It is not installed yet. Should have arrived at shipyard too.


  • Hull construction, anything except weapon - sensor systems costs nearly as $180 to 200 million. *
  • Sensors provided by Aselsan costs $95 million per ship. This value does not include integration (+$5 to 15 million). **
  • Other systems like CMS, IDS, consoles etc. and integration costs of these, $30 to 50 million including integration.
  • Price of MKEK 76mm, MILDAS is not known yet. Neither the companies know an exact price. I am giving these $15 to 30 million without ammunition, missiles.

$325 to 390 million is a possible range without spendables. ***

Considering 16 Atmaca, 64 Hisar-D (as visioned for I-Class) , ammunition for 76 + 25 + 35 mm cannons would cost $100 million, safely.

$425 to 490 million is a possible range with full load. And also a fair price point. For export this price would go up to $500 to 550 million.

* Ada Class was $100 million excluding the inflation, inflation is nearly %50 in USD during the last 15 years + a larger hull, mast, additional equipments etc. For more information refer to SSB reports in earlier times (2010).
** This price is heavily bargained and subsidized as a result of R&D costs funded by SSB, Aselsan may not be profiting at all, also not including every system that Aselsan delivers.
*** Range varies because Tübitak also delivers some components like, degaussing system, wet-end of sonar etc. there are also others that were not mentioned among the big ones.
As far as I can understand, we ave reached very good competitiveness in navionic-electronic systems. It is almost impossible to equip a western school frigate at these prices, unless there are very special political ties. However, hull construction + basic equipment costs are frankly far above my expectations.

(edit: a derivative turbine engine and indigenous propulsion system may indeed not be a dead investment. )
 

uçuyorum

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As far as I can understand, we ave reached very good competitiveness in navionic-electronic systems. It is almost impossible to equip a western school frigate at these prices, unless there are very special political ties. However, hull construction + basic equipment costs are frankly far above my expectations.

(edit: a derivative turbine engine and indigenous propulsion system may indeed not be a dead investment. )
I'm sure once TF35000 is done we will try to make all kind of derivative engines to recoup some of costs
 

UkroTurk

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  • Sensors provided by Aselsan costs $95 million per ship. This value does not include integration (+$5 to 15 million). **
  • Other systems like CMS, IDS, consoles etc. and integration costs of these, $30 to 50 million including integration.
  • Price of MKEK 76mm, MILDAS is not known yet. Neither the companies know an exact price. I am giving these $15 to 30 million without ammunition, missiles.
Just you could know the answer as you are our mighty engineer and academic.


I wonder how much do Sensors and integration cost to ASELSAN and 76mm main gun to MKEK ?
For instance, let ASELSAN AESA radar price be 50million USD. How many percent of price raw materials?

ASELSAN and MKEK already Invested in technology and machinery. They pay every month salaries of engineers.

Let this state companies more work for TN!

Am i wrong?

İf we add 4 AESA radars on every every frigate and Corvette, would it be big burden on Turkish economy?
Sağ cepten sol cebe girmiyor mu?

Teknoloji ve montajdan başka Ne maliyeti olabilir ki AESA radarın? Zaten bu teknoloji var . Üretim sayısını 10 birim artırmak, maliyeti ASELSANa birim 10 artırmaz ??

Yoksa gerçekten maliyeti ağır mı ASELSANa da?

İn order to produce Cenk AESA radar which weights app 1ton , do they use 1 ton gold as raw material?:)


Screenshot_2023-09-23-22-20-43-617-edit_com.android.chrome.jpg
 
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Anmdt

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As far as I can understand, we ave reached very good competitiveness in navionic-electronic systems. It is almost impossible to equip a western school frigate at these prices, unless there are very special political ties. However, hull construction + basic equipment costs are frankly far above my expectations.

(edit: a derivative turbine engine and indigenous propulsion system may indeed not be a dead investment. )
Hull construction covers piping, cabling, equipping to create a habitatable space (HVAC, furniture, household applications, galley etc.), navigation bridge, cabling for electronics, propulsion system (engines, reduction gear, shafting, propeller, brackets, foundations). Auxillary of propulsion systems, generators, auxillary of generators. So in overall, it is what making the steel turn into a ship. There are several other auxillary equipment that each costs at least a million. (Stabilizer fins, rudders for example). So i think i have given a fair price :).
 

AWP

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Family photo!
6 Milgem ships side by side. Left to right: Kaibar, Heybeliada, Istanbul, Babur, Akhisar, Koçhisar
ZwfJssC.jpeg


Absolutely amazing and breathtaking specially Istanbul class , it's a shame that we will only see 4 of that gem

I-class and Jannah class and Hisar Class all have somehow identical shape or we can say the Turkish Naval fingerprint

Inshallah we see this fingerprint in many countries
 

dBSPL

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Hull construction covers piping, cabling, equipping to create a habitatable space (HVAC, furniture, household applications, galley etc.), navigation bridge, cabling for electronics, propulsion system (engines, reduction gear, shafting, propeller, brackets, foundations). Auxillary of propulsion systems, generators, auxillary of generators. So in overall, it is what making the steel turn into a ship. There are several other auxillary equipment that each costs at least a million. (Stabilizer fins, rudders for example). So i think i have given a fair price :).
I just wanted to say that I was very surprised by these figures because I know a little bit about the cost of construction freight vessels, it is normal that there is an incomparable difference for various reasons, but despite this the figures you gave us for hull costs are above my previous expectations. Previously, I had the assumption that hull production and equiping had lower costs for these displacements, so this information was very enlightening for me.

Then let me revise my question as follows, how much of a change in total costs would it create if a ship for which the first ship has been produced and all engineering is ready is tendered to private shipyards for serial production? Also, how much difference can domestic steel, domestic equiping and installations make to the cost of naval ships? To put it more bluntly, can we, like the Chinese, reduce the cost of hull of these range, lets say, around 150 million dollars? Engineering is cheap, we now have a significant shipbuilding sub-industry, labor in shipyards is cheap, we are an important supplier to Europe, especially in low-tonnage technology-intensive civil shipbuilding, what are we making expensive?
 

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If I class cost $550 millions, then it is definitely out of option for BN's frigate program.

Chinese type-54B or arrowhead-140 for $350-400 millions looks more reasonable for our context. (Specially, arrowhead with very good growth potential)

Or we need to get some very downgraded version of one of Milgem designs. Which I guess, is not a good idea.
Not sure if the figures are comparable, similar Korean Daegu class multi-purpose frigates costs around $260 mil. each without missile load.

8 ships were built by HHI and DSME until 2021. Slightly heavier and bigger than Istif class with 3,600t displacement but 8 instead of 16 AShM. With domestic radars, sensors, sonars, CMS, torpedos, missiles etc.:

- 3D AESA radar
- hull mounted sonar
- towed array sonar
- 127mm Mk 45 Mod 4 main gun
- 1 Phalanx 20mm CIWS
- 16 cells KVLS (quad-packed Haegung AAM, KASROC Red Shark torpedos, Haeryong land-attack cruise missiles
- 2x 4 Haeseong AShM
- 2x 3 Blue Shark torpedos
 

Anmdt

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Not sure if the figures are comparable, similar Korean Daegu class multi-purpose frigates costs around $260 mil. each without missile load.

8 ships were built by HHI and DSME until 2021. Slightly heavier and bigger than Istif class with 3,600t displacement but 8 instead of 16 AShM. With domestic radars, sensors, sonars, CMS, torpedos, missiles etc.:

- 3D AESA radar
- hull mounted sonar
- towed array sonar
- 127mm Mk 45 Mod 4 main gun
- 1 Phalanx 20mm CIWS
- 16 cells KVLS (quad-packed Haegung AAM, KASROC Red Shark torpedos, Haeryong land-attack cruise missiles
- 2x 4 Haeseong AShM
- 2x 3 Blue Shark torpedos
I have tried to explain before, the prices are 'fluid'. If we look at the contract signed between builder and the customer (SSB) the price appears to be much lower but lacks certain systems.

Mk 45 Gun + FCR of this gun + Propulsion system (MT30 + Diesels + CODLOG) cost about $110-$130 mil nowadays.

We need to mind the inflation as well. My values are given for FY2023-2024. $260 in FY2012 is $340-350 in 2023.
 

Afif

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Turkiye's ASFAT delivers 1st PN MILGEM corvette to Pakistan, launches 2 OPVs for Turkish Navy
PNS Babur (280) at the delivery ceremony in Istanbul Naval Shipyard (Photo courtesy of Cem Devrim Yaylali, used under his permission)

Turkiye Delivers Corvette To Pakistan, Launches 2 OPVs For Turkish Navy​

On Sept. 23, 2023, ASFAT Inc, a defence contractor affiliated with the Turkish Ministry of Defense, ceremonially handed over the first Babur-class corvette (PN MILGEM), PNS Babur (280), to the Pakistan Navy at the Istanbul Naval Shipyard. In addition, the first two Hisar-class OPVs for the Turkish Navy were launched during the same ceremony.​

Tayfun Ozberk 24 Sep 2023

Turkish Defense Minister Yasar Güler and his Pakistani counterpart Anwar Ali Hayder attended the ceremony, along with other senior officers from the Turkish and Pakistani navies and representatives of Turkish defense companies.

Speaking at the ceremony, Defense Minister Yaşar Güler stressed that the simultaneous construction of four corvettes and two offshore patrol vessels in the Istanbul and Karachi shipyards as part of Pakistan’s MİLGEM project was a first in the history of the Turkish Republic and the defense industry.

Minister Güler pointed out that relations with Pakistan are improving day by day in all fields and said, “Our defense industry projects are one of the most important pillars of our cooperation.

Given that cooperation and solidarity among friendly and allied countries has become more important than ever in this increasingly fragile global security environment, defense industry cooperation is also of great importance. The extremely important MILGEM projects implemented in this context are a great asset for Turkey and Pakistan, two countries active in their region and respected in the world.


Yaşar Güler, Turkish Defence Minister

About Pakistan PN MILGEM / Babur-class corvettes​

Turkiye's ASFAT delivers 1st PN MILGEM corvette to Pakistan, launches 2 OPVs for Turkish Navy
4th Babur-class corvette PNS TARIQ (283) (ASFAT image)

PN MILGEM Program consists of 4 ships, 2 ships are being built in Istanbul Shipyard Command and another 2 are being built in KS&EW. Turkish Ministry of Defence owned ASFAT Inc. is the primary contractor of the project. The program started on 11 March 2019. The deliveries of the ships, which will be able to perform all kinds of military duties from air defense to submarine defense, are expected to be made at six-month intervals starting from August 2023.

The exact configuration of the PN MILGEM-class ships has not been made public yet. During the Aman Naval Exercise held in February 2019, Admiral Abbasi said that Pakistan ships will be fitted with a 16-Cell VLS behind the main gun. It is expected that the Babur-class corvettes will be armed with MBDA’s Albatros NG air defence system and Harbah Anti-ship and land attack missiles.

The propulsion system for all the MILGEM ships consist of one LM2500 gas turbine in a combined diesel and gas turbine configuration with two diesel engines; total propulsion power is 31,600 kilowatts.

Turkey’s Ada-class are multipurpose corvettes able to conduct a wide a range of missions, including reconnaissance, surveillance, anti-submarine warfare, surface-to-surface and surface-to-air warfare.

Key data:
  • Displacement: 2,926 tonnes
  • Length: 108.2 m
  • Beam: 14.8 m
  • Draft: 4.05 m
  • Propulsion: CODAG
  • Max speed: 31 knots
  • Range: 3500 nautical miles
  • Endurance: 15 days at sea
  • Crew: 93+40

About Hisar-class OPV​

Turkiye's ASFAT delivers 1st PN MILGEM corvette to Pakistan, launches 2 OPVs for Turkish Navy
TCG Akhisar, the lead vessel of the Hisar-class OPVs, being launched, while TCG Koçhisar is waiting for its turn (ASFAT photo)

Under the Offshore Patrol Vessel Project, initiated to meet the needs of the Turkish Naval Forces, the construction of 10 vessels is planned. The first ship is scheduled to be launched in 2023. Developed as a variant of the MİLGEM-class corvettes, the Hisar class OPV has been redesigned with a different main propulsion system and a different structural and general layout concept, allowing it to be built in a shorter time and at a lower cost.

The primary missions of the OPVs to be built are intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR), search and rescue (SAR), counterterrorism, maritime interdiction operations (MIO), and maritime special operations. Other missions include naval air operations, electronic and acoustic warfare, land bombardment, defense against asymmetric threats, maritime traffic protection, and support and training for amphibious operations.

The Hisar-class OPV is being built using the “fitted for but not with” concept, which allows for the integration of newly developed indigenous weapon and sensor systems. The OPV, which can accommodate a total of 104 people, will have a range of 4500 nautical miles with its CODELOD (COmbined Diesel-eLectric Or Diesel) main propulsion system.

Specifications:​

  • Overall length: 99,56 meters
  • Beam: 14,42 meters
  • Draft: 3,77 meters
  • Maximum speed: 24 knots
  • Displacement: 2300 tons
A rendering shared by ASFAT indicates a heavily armed ship compared to average OPVs. According to the rendering, the OPVs will be equipped with anti-ship missiles (likely ATMACA or CAKIR), a 2×4 vertical launch system to launch surface-to-air missiles (probably Hisar family air defence missiles), a Gökdeniz close-in weapon system (CIWS), a 76-mm gun, and a small missile launcher, likely to launch laser-guided L-UMTAS missiles.

Hisar-class
A rendering showing the design of the Hisar-class OPV (ASFAT image)

Considering the Turkish Ministry of Defence’s announcement marking the commencement of the construction of the OPV which indicated a “fitted but not with” design approach, it’s unclear whether the above weapons will be installed on the first ship, as officials didn’t provide specifics on the armament and sensor equipment of the OPVs.




@Anmdt What is likely to be the cost of HISAR OPV in abovementioned configuration.
 
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