TR Navy Navy|News & Discussions

[Iskander]

If Hitler had wanted, German defense industry would have constructed. They just knew, submarine based naval doctrine was more suitable for 3rd Reich

In 1939, Germany had 57 submarines, but during the war, only 1,170 were built—significantly more than the entire anti-Hitler coalition combined and all the countries of the world combined.
Simply fantastic!

 

[UkroTurk]

In 1939, Germany had 57 submarines, but during the war, only 1,170 were built—significantly more than the entire anti-Hitler coalition combined and all the countries of the world combined.
Simply fantastic!

So Nazis didn't waste resources on vulnerable Aircraft carrier and they just wisely invested in effective tool for them.

There is a great lesson for us.

 

[UkroTurk]

Instead of an aircraft carrier, I would prefer 10 x this one

M23 C-Series Midget Submarine

The M23 C-Series is the latest successful submarine designed by Italian submarine design legend Giunio Santi. Two boats are being built for the Qatari Navy…Read More >….

www.hisutton.com

 

[Ripley]

If Hitler had wanted, German defense industry would have constructed. They just knew, submarine based naval doctrine was more suitable for 3rd Reich

This is not history thread and I don’t wanna spam TR Navy news but just write this last one.

The ship had already been launched in 1938. But was not ready.
Germany didn’t have any naval warplanes, only flying boats. They worked on a navalized Me-109 and a new bomber design by Junkers (IIRC) which both ended up in trash basket.
They didn’t have any naval air warfare experience, hence no real ‘fleet air corps’.
Navy was the first proponent of a CV as they were dreaming of a limited war with Britain, thinking a CV would help them keep Royal Navy at bay.

I don’t remember whether Hitler was a supporter of it tbh but given the fact that he loved big toys, I’ll speculate that he would jump on it disregarding any feasibility and economics. There were few sane Nazi administrators like Albert Speer who found a way to manipulate him, con him out of his cockamemie projects.

It was a dead born project.

 

[Sanchez]

So Nazis didn't waste resources on vulnerable Aircraft carrier and they just wisely invested in effective tool for them.

There is a great lesson for us.

Nazis lost and all those subs were sunk by superior air power and convoy tactics; and they lost the war because allies could simply build more than what nazis could sink. Lesson here isn't "build more subs", it's "don't be at war with a land superpower and US at the same time"
---
None of what's written here for the last 2 days is anything new to the navy. With 12 active use subs, Turkey already have the largest submarine fleet in the Med. I didn't count the two oldest subs Batıray and Yıldıray in this. As two newest Ay Class boats had an MLU, they will be around for at least 5-10 more years. Preveze Class is slowly having their MLU and Gür class boats are modern with lots of teeth for closed seas like the Med. With 4 more Reis class boats on the way, by 2030 we will have 16 modern/modernized subs in service. That already makes us the 7th largest sub operator in the world if we don't count countries investing in midget boats like N.Korea and Iran. Turkey always had a large submarine fleet. With Milden on the way by 2035s and Nükden by 2040s, navy is not dropping its sub plans for a carrier; there's no such route here. On the contrary it's moving ahead to build this strategic capability in house from torps to engines even to its steel and in future its reactors.

Navy needs more and bigger subs, navy needs AD destroyers and navy needs a carrier. And Navy is actually moving forward to build them all in time.

 

[AlperTunga]

Instead of an aircraft carrier, I would prefer 10 x this one

M23 C-Series Midget Submarine

The M23 C-Series is the latest successful submarine designed by Italian submarine design legend Giunio Santi. Two boats are being built for the Qatari Navy…Read More >….

www.hisutton.com

Due to a reason unknown to me, Turkish Navy is not interested in mini/small submarines. The best example is STM500 which looked very promising. But again I assume our TN experts know better than me (us).

Edit: Kozan Selcuk was praising STM500 a lot. My hypothesis why the navy does not want them: they have diesel engines. While they are small, they may still be more easily detected due to more noise than larger subs based on AIP technology. So they are probably not that useful against a sophisticated enemy.

 

[dBSPL]

I'm curious whether the naval forces are planning to establish a second center for submarine construction infrastructure outside of Gölcük in the coming period, and whether they are considering private sector cooperation, particularly in the production of hull blocks.

There is a midget submarine project coordinated by STM, and even smaller tonnage armed unmanned submarine projects. In addition to maintaining the existing submarine fleet, the Milden project has begun, and there are ongoing studies on Nükden, which could be the next major challenge for the Turkish defense industry in the long term, for the next decades. The production and maintenance of at least 3-4 specialized submarine classes for different theaters/types will be undertaken.

While Turkiye is already one of the world's leading conventional submarine operators, there is a clear tendency to nationalize and increase both its capabilities and quantitative strength. Should the industry supporting this strength be concentrated in the Gulf of Izmit, or should it be distributed to a certain extent within the country?

 

[Yasar_TR]

I'm curious whether the naval forces are planning to establish a second center for submarine construction infrastructure outside of Gölcük in the coming period, and whether they are considering private sector cooperation, particularly in the production of hull blocks.

There is a midget submarine project coordinated by STM, and even smaller tonnage armed unmanned submarine projects. In addition to maintaining the existing submarine fleet, the Milden project has begun, and there are ongoing studies on Nükden, which could be the next major challenge for the Turkish defense industry in the long term, for the next decades. The production and maintenance of at least 3-4 specialized submarine classes for different theaters/types will be undertaken.

While Turkiye is already one of the world's leading conventional submarine operators, there is a clear tendency to nationalize and increase both its capabilities and quantitative strength. Should the industry supporting this strength be concentrated in the Gulf of Izmit, or should it be distributed to a certain extent within the country?

Golcuk is experienced in submarine manufacturing Which is a very specialised technology. But as certain parts and blocks are manufactured by the eco system they have set up, under their watchful eyes another production line elsewhere can be set up. Our @Anmdt can enlighten us better about this.

In view of our discussion earlier with @Gessler regarding SSN production there are some important points that need to be looked in to.
1. SSNs are very expensive and are big ships. If they are nuclear powered attack subs then they are 6000-10000tons. But if they are ballistic missile SSNs then they are 15000-24000ton giants.
2. Building them is not an easy task. It needs very specialised technology and know how.
3. Also Li-Ion based submarines like the 3000ton class, Taigei Class of Japan are a choice. They are quiet and fast subs that can stay submerged for longer than a week. These are probably more within our reach.
4. AIP powered subs are too slow to escort large flotillas in open seas. But they are extra quiet. In fact they are claimed to be quieter than many modern SSNs. Spanish Navantia S80+ class subs use a new method of hydrogen production via bio-ethanol which gives these subs capability to charge it’s batteries without rising to periscope depth to start the diesel engines for recharging and can travel a little faster than other AIP subs. Navantia has allegedly granted a production licence for these to the Turkish Navy.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1723713891132387361

interested parties can read below article for further info on s80+ sub.

[URL
unfurl="true"]https://www.defenceturkey.com/files/content/66081c5a13867.pdf[/URL]

 

[MonteCarlo]

Large (probably similar in size to ÇAMD or Trança) UUV by Datum. Hopefully Navy would be more interested in this unmanned version

 

[Anmdt]

Golcuk is experienced in submarine manufacturing Which is a very specialised technology. But as certain parts and blocks are manufactured by the eco system they have set up, under their watchful eyes another production line elsewhere can be set up. Our @Anmdt can enlighten us better about this.

In view of our discussion earlier with @Gessler regarding SSN production there are some important points that need to be looked in to.
1. SSNs are very expensive and are big ships. If they are nuclear powered attack subs then they are 6000-10000tons. But if they are ballistic missile SSNs then they are 15000-24000ton giants.
2. Building them is not an easy task. It needs very specialised technology and know how.
3. Also Li-Ion based submarines like the 3000ton class, Taigei Class of Japan are a choice. They are quiet and fast subs that can stay submerged for longer than a week. These are probably more within our reach.
4. AIP powered subs are too slow to escort large flotillas in open seas. But they are extra quiet. In fact they are claimed to be quieter than many modern SSNs. Spanish Navantia S80+ class subs use a new method of hydrogen production via bio-ethanol which gives these subs capability to charge it’s batteries without rising to periscope depth to start the diesel engines for recharging and can travel a little faster than other AIP subs. Navantia has allegedly granted a production licence for these to the Turkish Navy.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1723713891132387361

interested parties can read below article for further info on s80+ sub.

[URL
unfurl="true"]https://www.defenceturkey.com/files/content/66081c5a13867.pdf[/URL]

As you have already stated submarine production is highly specialized form of shipbuilding. Even in a sense it is more of a platform manufacturing process similar to the air platforms. Core personnel skill remains to be vital in every step.

A private shipyard priotizes profits and they often use subcontractors to lease job packages, reassign personnel across projects or repairs / new building. Whereas in Gölcük the very same people stays in a fixed position, duty even working on the exact same part of the pressure hull (for some certain parts) to ensure reliability.

A submarine is only becomes meaningfully operational once it is built with the dedicated tolerances. This value basically dictates reliability of the pressure hull to ensure the commander on safe diving depth and foremost of all, ensures acoustic stealthness and operational status of the equipments.

Given all the facts, i think in TR, once we start to lease the submarine production, even in a block sense, even with supervision of Navy personnel from Gölcük would lead to unpleasant results, even disasters. First technically they wouldn't push for the given tolerances and personnel excellence, secondly i am pretty assured they will use bureucratic connections to pressure Navy personnel for premature approvals.

However, once the hull diameter becomes small the tolerances are naturally relaxed or for the case of unmanned platforms the equipment integration would be relatively simples or not vital as it is for a manned submarine. So for small submarines (even not STM500, but smaller ones) it seems feasible for private shipyards to get involved. Even individually for large scale productions.

 

[Yasar_TR]

As you have already stated submarine production is highly specialized form of shipbuilding. Even in a sense it is more of a platform manufacturing process similar to the air platforms. Core personnel skill remains to be vital in every step.

A private shipyard priotizes profits and they often use subcontractors to lease job packages, reassign personnel across projects or repairs / new building. Whereas in Gölcük the very same people stays in a fixed position, duty even working on the exact same part of the pressure hull (for some certain parts) to ensure reliability.

A submarine is only becomes meaningfully operational once it is built with the dedicated tolerances. This value basically dictates reliability of the pressure hull to ensure the commander on safe diving depth and foremost of all, ensures acoustic stealthness and operational status of the equipments.

Given all the facts, i think in TR, once we start to lease the submarine production, even in a block sense, even with supervision of Navy personnel from Gölcük would lead to unpleasant results, even disasters. First technically they wouldn't push for the given tolerances and personnel excellence, secondly i am pretty assured they will use bureucratic connections to pressure Navy personnel for premature approvals.

However, once the hull diameter becomes small the tolerances are naturally relaxed or for the case of unmanned platforms the equipment integration would be relatively simples or not vital as it is for a manned submarine. So for small submarines (even not STM500, but smaller ones) it seems feasible for private shipyards to get involved. Even individually for large scale productions.

A Reis class section 50 was manufactured in Gürdesan Shipyard. I wonder how good and satisfactory that exercise was!
Giving work to subcontractors like these can be an option. But as the size of ships in question increase, as you mention, the tolerances become more of an issue.
Provided they are only subcontracting certain parts of the sub and the main hull is taking shape under Golcuk personnel’s work, then it could release workforce in Golcuk to increase production speed.

Türkiye'de ilk kez denizaltılar için "Section 50" üretildi

Denizaltı torpido kovanlarının yer aldığı baş kısım (Section 50), ilk kez Türkiye’de, yerli ve milli imkanlarla, STM mühendisliği ve koordinasyonunda üretildi

www.defenceturk.net

 

[Saithan]

Perhaps mini subs and their time without surfacing is too short and not ideal for the waters in Mavi Vatan. And our naval doctrine can use other means to safeguard our EEZ. @Anmdt would probably have a a better insight on the topic. Even sea of islands with many small island and litoral waters may not be enough for us to get mini subs.

 

[dBSPL]

In fact, mini-subs could be extremely valuable for the Turkish Navy’s likely hybrid doctrine in the coming decades. Let us not forget that we are a nation of peninsulas, and a coastal state bordering a sea with truly unique conditions, such as the Aegean Sea; there are also another potential risk indications—most recently, as hinted at by the U.S. consul—that initiatives challenging the current status quo in the Black Sea may emerge. Mini subs can enable unique and cost-effective operational concepts not only as attack platforms but also for special operations, intelligence gathering, infiltration missions, and underwater dominance.

On this note, I would like to add a brief aside regarding the question I raised earlier: I fully agree with the points highlighted by Yaşar and Anmdt üstads, whose posts I always enjoy reading. However, I am concerned that the burden on Gölcük may become increasingly challenging in the coming period, as the naval forces, which currently operate a very large submarine fleet, will also need to handle the development, production, testing, maintenance, and sustainment of a large number of new types of underwater systems. As a reference, tkMS incorporated the shipyard in Wismar into its operations, in addition to maintain capacity at the main shipyard in Kiel, particularly to meet external demand. Similarly, GNYK in Kiel has been positioned as a key subcontractor. Although B+V has effectively lost this capability, tkMS’s submarine production capacity—now concentrated in Kiel—is supported by the facility in Wismar. The issue is that we are maintaining our existing diesel submarines and are currently building AIP-powered attack submarines. We are working to develop our national attack submarine. At the same time, however, we are conducting studies to expand this range with various underwater systems weighing less than 600–700 tons. At some point, Gölcük may become a center capable of maintaining well over 20 submarines of various sizes, excluding unmanned systems, while also carrying out Nükden project development activities and starting to launch Milden (including pocket submarine projects if we can turn them into real systems) into the water. -And there’s a secondary issue we haven’t mentioned yet: if we can successfully launch the Milden, it’s a project that will definitely be a export success.