Pakistan giving support for China in SCS issue

Gary

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Ooo yes, it doesn't affect anything in the surface, but the signs is clearly there, you don't just go into a weapons shopping spree out of nowhere. Not to mention the permanent relocations of the first fleet from Jakarta to Natuna. Clearly some claims of cordial relationship just don't add up. Check the Indonesian defense section and you'll see there's a clear uptick of military exercise going on.

Trade is trade, war is war. We're not going to cut relationship in a night just because some fishing issues:rolleyes:

Nobody is asking Pakistan to downgrade it's relationship with China, we just somewhat expect them to at least be smart about it.
 

xizhimen

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Ooo yes, it doesn't affect anything in the surface, but the signs is clearly there, you don't just go into a weapons shopping spree out of nowhere. Not to mention the permanent relocations of the first fleet from Jakarta to Natuna. Clearly some claims of cordial relationship just don't add up. Check the Indonesian defense section and you'll see there's a clear uptick of military exercise going on.

Trade is trade, war is war. We're not going to cut relationship in a night just because some fishing issues:rolleyes:

Nobody is asking Pakistan to downgrade it's relationship with China, we just somewhat expect them to at least be smart about it.
Many countries are increasing their defense budgets around the world, it's not all about countering China as the west claims, and do you really believe increasing military budget can put Indonesia in a position to beat China? Indonesia is doing that more about gaining comparative advantage over its immediate neigbors. China is not the only claimant country in this region.
 

Gary

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Many countries are increasing their defense budgets around the world, it's not all about countering China as the west claims, and do you really believe increasing military budget can put Indonesia in a position to beat China? Indonesia is doing that more about gaining comparative advantage over its immediate neigbors.
Uhh oh, we don't have to beat u, that's not our interest nor our task, it's task of the US actually tbh.

look, the recent plan to induct the Iver Huitfeldt happens exactly after the latest Sino-Indonesian standoff, where Indonesia's acting "prime minister" acknowledge that Indonesia don't have large surface combatants like that of China. Before that Jakarta is happy with some Sigma's.

and not surprisingly not long after, Indonesia designate Natuna as a joint tri service base. With permanent deployment of fast jets, missiles and a permanent naval task force based there.

cleary this move is not directed towards Australia.
 

xizhimen

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cleary this move is not directed towards Australia.
How about it's a plan to boost your own defense ability? US and all their western allies boosted their defence big time claiming against "China's growing threat", it's ridiculou cause China never plans to attack US and Europe. They just like to boost their defense with or without China. Indonesia also will increase their military budget with or without China.
 

Gary

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People just don't realize just how much uneasy Jakarta had felt since the last standoff.

before January 2020, Natuna is just another islands in Indonesia with some people's mainly Fishermen.

this is what Natuna Looks like now
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IMG-20201114-WA0040-1.jpg
 
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ekemenirtu

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Point is, why say it out loud? If Pakistan recognises it has no real way to do anything to help PRC in the SCS, why announce support which will only draw more attention to Pakistan's cringey fan-boyish attitude for nothing in return?

It is literally one vote away here on out from being blacklisted at the FATF. All the salivating over F-16s and whatever other nonsense juxtaposes with American and Western resolve to not whitelist Pakistan till it complies genuinely on not funding terrorism (and that is a severe catch 22 and inertia for Pakistani establishment to handle...which is long story on its own).

Grey listing there for years now has already lost it 10's of billions of dollars in effective long term institutional loans (that PRC is in no position to replace, having already commited to the hoohah of the loan ponzi scheme of CPEC). Is China going to replace those loans by this SCS+Uighur statement? Nope it long would have if it could and saw reason to (it is the reason why Pakistan approaches non-Chinese loans from IMF, WB etc in first place)

This statement just opens up more avenue for India to peel Malaysia from the trio...and illustrates one side of Pakistan's abject foreign policy incompetence (i.e sometimes there is such a thing as leaving things unsaid and not entering the muck more for no gain).

A) Palm oil imports already resumed once mahathir was kicked to the side politically,

B) Mahathir admin itself had little to show about the KL summit (since IK was a no show again after big hoohah by him personally) esp. after sticking its neck out stupidly on Kashmir

C) New administration in Malaysia looking to improve relations with India more already

A, B and C adding up already and now with the lackey blab on SCS (which malaysia has stake in) for little to no reason....that means India will gain further impetus to get Malaysia away from the 3 votes at FATF keeping Pakistan off the blacklist. Long term this will be an immense pressure pile on Pakistani economy more than it currently has.

Past SCS and going to other side of the statement, I really don't need to expand on what Pakistan's constant brazen, disgusting lackeying w.r.t China treatment of Turkic Uighurs also does (and importantly not just at govt level) w.r.t its so called soft power outreach to Turkey.

That is a huge part why this forum even formed in the first place. People see you for who you really are past the charade in the end. These all have long term consequences.

These all ought to be large concern to any reasonable Pakistani member (or guest reading)...or any well-wisher/friend of the country.

I am not sure I am able to follow your train of thoughts.

It appears that you are lashing out at Pakistan that has been a rival if not enemy of your country for decades. Understandably, you may hold some grudges although I am not fully familiar with all the nitty-gritty in your little tussle with Pakistan. Quite understandably, Pakistani members would be able to enumerate their personal list of grudges against you/your country and justify their decisions. I leave it to your peoples to sort that one out.

As a moderator, though, you should be able to exercise restraint and set a higher standard of discourse. Rather than calling Chinese investment commitments in Pakistan as a ponzi scheme or Pakistan's attitude as "cringey" and "fan-boyish", you should be able to provide evidence based descriptors for Chinese investment commitments in Pakistan as well as supposed Pakistani governmental attitude.

Such behaviour casts a shadow on your standing in this forum. Admittedly, bad behaviour in cyberspace is less likely to be ruinous to your career, reputation or social standing. Still, such behaviour should not be justified or perpetuated.

As for Dr Mahathir Mohamed and his KL summit, yes, Pakistan's no-show ensured the summit turned into a photo opportunity session. For that blunder, Pakistan could be rightly criticized.

Dr Mahathir Mohamed was the PM of a country that is very diverse and has a very diverse electorate. The region is not Muslim majority or has had a long history of Islamic rule, culture, traditions and values deeply established in the national psyche.

Unlike in Pakistan, therefore, Dr Mahathir Mohamed in Malaysia can not do much when other Muslim countries backstab him and fail to form an alliance - as Pakistan had done during the KL summit.

For that reason, Pakistan should be justifiably criticized. I don't see why mere verbal or diplomatic support for China over SCS should be any issue, though.

You mentioned FATF. Looking FATF up, I discovered that Indonesia is not a member. ASEAN is also not a member. Only Malaysia and Singapore from ASEAN are considered worthy enough to be included as members in that organization. Make of that whatever you want.
 
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ekemenirtu

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You should know Indonesia at some points and issue doesn't look at Malaysian favorably and that's still going on till today, that's moot when you bringing why Indonesia is in failure not to attend KL summits when Indonesia itself doesn't give much concern about it. But with regard to Pakistan case is very different in nature as one objection of this summit being held to giving support for Pakistan Khasmir issue in which in grandiose way being sabotaged by Pakistan itself and give slap face toward the host Malaysia and Turkey at "suggestion" of GCC's.

You know, it was in the past Pakistan got a more larger and powerful Ally named USA who had giving a large support militarily , diplomatically and economically, but look at what Pakistan do with regard to her allies, Pakistan host the OBL (one who responsible for more than 2000 US citizen lives) near Pakistan military facilities. I giving no damn about Pakistan preference with China over US as their sugar Daddy but to giving much support by formal channel like this one over SCS including China stance and repeated intrusion over Natuna Sea, it was worthy of consideration for my Country to look at what how we treat Pakistan from now on. In which i suggest there is no more unconditional support for Pakistan anymore like what we had shown in 1965 or during Afghanistan Soviet Invasion.

I doubt Indonesia is any position to do any grand favours to Pakistan that China can not.

Moreover, Indonesia did not join the KL summit when Indonesia and Brunei are the only Muslim majority states within Malaysia's vicinity. Indonesia is also supposedly the biggest Muslim majority state in the world although it may be argued that the form of Islam practised in Indonesia is less traditional, less authentic and less stringent. Indonesia, of course, has had no historic claim to Islamic leadership, scholarship, implementation of Islamic laws or any history of prolonged Islamic cultures, traditions and beliefs indelibly etched in the national psyche.

This is different from the wider Middle East and perhaps, to some extent, Central Asia prior to Russian invasion and annexation.

As such, I doubt Pakistan which is a nuclear power and immensely more powerful than Indonesia in military matters would begin to lose sleep over your decision.

I don't recall Indonesia ever actively assisting Pakistan fight India in 1965 or against the Soviet Union. There have been greater, more reliable, less grumpy friends or allies that Pakistan has traditionally relied on and still relies on for assistance of both military and non-military nature.
 
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ekemenirtu

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Pakistan will outgrow China eventually. I remember when our military leadership, too, used to lick the boots of foreign soldiers for decades. It was the American Military in our case but things have changed and Pakistan at one point will start questioning China.

I hope so.

You may hope so, too.

We have to see how the things unfold in the future.

For the foreseeable future, which I would say include the next three decades, I do not see any major change in that relationship. I may be wrong. Of course, who among us can predict the future accurately or reliably?

We will have to see.
 

VCheng

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While I do throw words like cabal around and have a filter in operation that seemingly only present their negative thinking and consequences.... I do not preclude there is some modicum present to change all that given the chance and opportunity if a spark or several come its way.

I understand your points, but the case with Pakistan shows that significant changes must be imposed from the outside, and not from within. The internal issues are slowly building to an explosive head, but periodic interventions from the outside release the pressure valves a bit to give some relief, given that the world would rather pay up than deal with the collapse of a third world country in a volatile region with nuclear weapons.

The solutions are not durable, so your point of change must come inevitably can be accepted, with the proviso that the timing remains firmly in the future, and likely to be extended periodically as I have described above.
 

Xenon54

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How about it's a plan to boost your own defense ability? US and all their western allies boosted their defence big time claiming against "China's growing threat", it's ridiculou cause China never plans to attack US and Europe. They just like to boost their defense with or without China. Indonesia also will increase their military budget with or without China.
Its not just about China, the world is pretty much in a cold war era again, Turkey for exsample is also expanding its defense industry but it has regional issues to do so, nothing to do with China, just one of the exsamples.
 

Nilgiri

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I am not sure I am able to follow your train of thoughts.

It appears that you are lashing out at Pakistan that has been a rival if not enemy of your country for decades. Understandably, you may hold some grudges although I am not fully familiar with all the nitty-gritty in your little tussle with Pakistan. Quite understandably, Pakistani members would be able to enumerate their personal list of grudges against you/your country and justify their decisions. I leave it to your peoples to sort that one out.

As a moderator, though, you should be able to exercise restraint and set a higher standard of discourse. Rather than calling Chinese investment commitments in Pakistan as a ponzi scheme or Pakistan's attitude as "cringey" and "fan-boyish", you should be able to provide evidence based descriptors for Chinese investment commitments in Pakistan as well as supposed Pakistani governmental attitude.

Such behaviour casts a shadow on your standing in this forum. Admittedly, bad behaviour in cyberspace is less likely to be ruinous to your career, reputation or social standing. Still, such behaviour should not be justified or perpetuated.

As for Dr Mahathir Mohamed and his KL summit, yes, Pakistan's no-show ensured the summit turned into a photo opportunity session. For that blunder, Pakistan could be rightly criticized.

Dr Mahathir Mohamed was the PM of a country that is very diverse and has a very diverse electorate. The region is not Muslim majority or has had a long history of Islamic rule, culture, traditions and values deeply established in the national psyche.

Unlike in Pakistan, therefore, Dr Mahathir Mohamed in Malaysia can not do much when other Muslim countries backstab him and fail to form an alliance - as Pakistan had done during the KL summit.

For that reason, Pakistan should be justifiably criticized. I don't see why mere verbal or diplomatic support for China over SCS should be any issue, though.

You mentioned FATF. Looking FATF up, I discovered that Indonesia is not a member. ASEAN is also not a member. Only Malaysia and Singapore from ASEAN are considered worthy enough to be included as members in that organization. Make of that whatever you want.

I suggest you look at the savings rate of Pakistan and start from there....to understand why CPEC is a ponzi scheme (especially what is being prioritized and what is deliberately being excluded by China w.r.t Pakistan's economic structural problems).

You can look up and read (at your leisure and interest) papers published by the best minds at Pakistans central bank and financial institutions, and where their analysis begins but where it is forced to end compared to any other country.

Then you can interact with 100s of Pakistanis in various fora and see how they reflect on all this when confronted with it, and how their attitude and demeanour to it likely percolates/correlates the further up a bureaucracy you go...given what that whole establishment brutally and undeniably did to more than half its country in the past.

If you haven't done these things, then it would be suffice to say your impression of my take (moderator or not) is not very sound.
 

Nilgiri

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I understand your points, but the case with Pakistan shows that significant changes must be imposed from the outside, and not from within. The internal issues are slowly building to an explosive head, but periodic interventions from the outside release the pressure valves a bit to give some relief, given that the world would rather pay up than deal with the collapse of a third world country in a volatile region with nuclear weapons.

The solutions are not durable, so your point of change must come inevitably can be accepted, with the proviso that the timing remains firmly in the future, and likely to be extended periodically as I have described above.

I dunno man, world seems to be changing how it goes about w.r.t Pakistan.

(West) Pakistan of the 90s was arguably the high water mark w.r.t India.

India was facing forex bankruptcy, the Kashmir high level insurgency had established full flow, N.E insurgencies looking very bad, Khalistan movement was at its peak arguably, Indian foreign relations were facing huge obstacles given USSR collapse, Babri Mosque, rise of fractitious internal politics as congress party started to collapse....I could keep going on and on about this era and its severe challenges for India....compared to Pakistan which was riding out its picked model and momentum lot better.

The point is India got enough of its act together when one could have easily predicted another fate and not sound unreasonable at all.

Now about 30 years later, we are looking at very different picture. No doubt a huge amount remains to be done and tackled, the issues are immense as ever for India.

But it is not anywhere close to stagnant/stasis like Pakistan's model just like you have noted.

It is the relevance of India to the world and to Pakistan that itself will add a pressure to Pakistan's establishment. They cannot continue as normal eternally, you understand just how much Pakistani regular people follow India (in whatever positive or negative manner, it does occupy lot of their attention, interest and fear).

Pakistan simply does not have an extreme insular model like North Korea where brandishing nuclear weapons or a military is enough foreign policy...given it has not developed what North Korea has for political purpose internally to base this on.

Over time periods I am talking about, such technologies also inevitably need massive fiscal resources to stay relevant on...or is it your contention in the next century (and probably much sooner than that), we will still be talking about nuclear warheads and ballistic missiles?....given what economic sizes will be then (and costs to them to support Pakistan with drip feed of some high value deterrence tech of the time) if Pakistan has chosen to not reform and grow by coming to suitable co-existence psychology w.r.t India in its establishment?

Pakistan's diaspora also means it is something more like Iran (with its theocratic regime-bureaucracy that is seemingly stuck there too) ....it just cannot insulate itself from the information flows and references like North Korea can.

This is why Pakistan's economic stagnation and non-access to western loans (that China is not interested to replace) mounting up is something that needs to be watched and closely this decade as to its effects on pakistan establishments narrative entrenchment.

So I just do not think anything is guaranteed. I said we can be justified regarding certain things maybe for our lifetimes, but our lifetimes are very short all things considered.

But somethings can happen really quickly too, that were unforeseen and quite unpredictable. Up to 1989, the CIA assessment of the USSR was that it was as stable as rock. We all know how things went down in just couple years.

We simply cannot know anything for sure....what the pressure and fissure points are...or what are the points for great action and reform. We can give an educated guess, but its still just a guess...and education is relative....and often proven wrong in reality looking back in history.

I would like @Joe Shearer to read our convo here (and any of the larger thread if he desires) and see if he has anything to say.
 

Indos

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I doubt Indonesia is any position to do any grand favours to Pakistan that China can not.

Moreover, Indonesia did not join the KL summit when Indonesia and Brunei are the only Muslim majority states within Malaysia's vicinity. Indonesia is also supposedly the biggest Muslim majority state in the world although it may be argued that the form of Islam practised in Indonesia is less traditional, less authentic and less stringent. Indonesia, of course, has had no historic claim to Islamic leadership, scholarship, implementation of Islamic laws or any history of prolonged Islamic cultures, traditions and beliefs indelibly etched in the national psyche.

This is different from the wider Middle East and perhaps, to some extent, Central Asia prior to Russian invasion and annexation.

As such, I doubt Pakistan which is a nuclear power and immensely more powerful than Indonesia in military matters would begin to lose sleep over your decision.

I don't recall Indonesia ever actively assisting Pakistan fight India in 1965 or against the Soviet Union. There have been greater, more reliable, less grumpy friends or allies that Pakistan has traditionally relied on and still relies on for assistance of both military and non-military nature.

Indonesian Islamic organization is older than Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, independent, modern, and authentic. You sound like to belittle Indonesian.

Second biggest

Muhammadiyah (Arabic: محمدية‎, followers of Muhammad; full name: Persyarikatan Muhammadiyah) is a major Islamic non-governmental organization in Indonesia.[1] The organization was founded in 1912 by Ahmad Dahlan in the city of Yogyakarta as a reformist socioreligious movement, advocating ijtihad - individual interpretation of Qur'an and sunnah, as opposed to taqlid - the acceptance of the traditional interpretations propounded by the ulama.[2] Since its establishment, Muhammadiyah has adopted a reformist platform mixing religious and secular education,[3] primarily as a way to promote the upward mobility of Muslims toward a 'modern' community and to purify Indonesian Islam of local syncretic practices.[3] I


Biggest

Nahdlatul Ulama (literally translated to Revival of the Ulama, abbreviated as NU) is a traditionalist Sunni Islam movement in Indonesia following the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence

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Maybe hijab is a good parameter to show degree of "Islamic" values in Indonesia. In here wearing hijab is not enforced.

Jakarta Commuter Train during rush hour


Upper and Upper Midlle class people in South Jakarta.

I bring Pondok Indah Mall since Pondok Indah and other surrounding places like Cilandak, Fatmawati, Lebak Bulus, Radio Dalam are inhabited by upper and upper middle class people.

 
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Gary

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Bcoz pakistan is no more than a puppet of China...they just read out the papers given by chinese officials during press conferences and at international summits
Pakistan had no choice, this is exactly what I feared from a very close economic cooperation with China. We don't know when they're going to weaponize it.
 

schuimpjes

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I don't recall Indonesia ever actively assisting Pakistan fight India in 1965 or against the Soviet Union. There have been greater, more reliable, less grumpy friends or allies that Pakistan has traditionally relied on and still relies on for assistance of both military and non-military nature.
In 60s, we were govern by eastern aligned Soekarno. And in that time, Indonesia even send groups of technician to India, they were called Nanggala.

In 80s, we were western aligned. And we were helping Afghan Mujahideen to fight the Soviet, which that mission was authorized by the Catholic General Benny through Pakistan. And what is funny was that our second most powerful man right now, Luhut, was in total aware of that. But, the motivation was not Religious things blabla...
 
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Gundala

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How about it's a plan to boost your own defense ability? US and all their western allies boosted their defence big time claiming against "China's growing threat", it's ridiculou cause China never plans to attack US and Europe. They just like to boost their defense with or without China. Indonesia also will increase their military budget with or without China.
Perhaps its true China never plans to attack other country, but it also true that China will try and enforce others nation natural resources into their own whether thru others EEZ, debt trap and other means necessary to feed their people and secure her own national interest.

Indonesia and other country will increase their military budget gradually thru time but when one country suddenly increasre their military spending way above their normal annually budget spending rate then something must be triggering them right? The common understanding is there are two main reason on which one country starting to build their defense RAPIDLY; One is to fulfill their ambition or aggresively looking to achieve their ambition to detter other country thus securing both their national interest and Agenda. Two is to detter threat that one might see closing in right into their own soverignty. In Indonesia case is number Two.
 
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ekemenirtu

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I understand your points, but the case with Pakistan shows that significant changes must be imposed from the outside, and not from within. The internal issues are slowly building to an explosive head, but periodic interventions from the outside release the pressure valves a bit to give some relief, given that the world would rather pay up than deal with the collapse of a third world country in a volatile region with nuclear weapons.

The solutions are not durable, so your point of change must come inevitably can be accepted, with the proviso that the timing remains firmly in the future, and likely to be extended periodically as I have described above.

All the more reason for Pakistan to align its policies with that of China. Had such unwarranted threats from an interventionist United States in the post-Soviet world not been made, Pakistan may have pursued a more independent course and balanced foreign policy.

Threats to the existence of any nation cannot go unanswered by the threatened nation. Therefore, Pakistan has every reason to pursue a much more closely-knit future with China.

I believe that is a very reasonable choice by Pakistan to desire continuation of its existence.
 

Test7

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Aggressive posts have been deleted. This discussion does not serve a purpose. I want to remind you that there are dozens of ways to defend ideas. We do not want to see people to praise or humiliate the other here.
 

VCheng

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All the more reason for Pakistan to align its policies with that of China. Had such unwarranted threats from an interventionist United States in the post-Soviet world not been made, Pakistan may have pursued a more independent course and balanced foreign policy.

Threats to the existence of any nation cannot go unanswered by the threatened nation. Therefore, Pakistan has every reason to pursue a much more closely-knit future with China.

I believe that is a very reasonable choice by Pakistan to desire continuation of its existence.

Of course Pakistan should align itself with whatever power it chooses in order to serve its own national interests as best as possible.
 
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