TR Propulsion Systems

[the]

He has spoken on S-400, we thought it was a bluff, then it happened and caused a catastrophe,
He again speaks on several matters, i am sure these will somehow happen and cause worse catastrophic events than before.
Despite of CAATSA and other sanctions, embargo, the cooperation - partnership is still happening in the background off-the eyes, If this happens it will go worse and diminish.
and Russian despite of acting as a "friend" will never contribute as much as the "enemy-threat like" west, even in the best-case scenario.
Checking Syrian thread will tell us much better about how "friendly" Russians are.

100% agree, he's expecting Biden to give in but thats obviously not going to happen.

This is following a very similar to the S-400s procurement.

 

[Abdelaziz]

We have two baskets; one with western or anything developed jointly with them, one national basket where project is entirely developed here.
No place for a rotten untrustworthy 3rd basket prone to fail and also break the other baskets at any moment.

PS: Turkey is not a 3rd world country to make 3-4 baskets with direct purchases from several suppliers just to secure future, there is a rising industry and all we should do is strengthening the national basket.

The corrupted is who doesnt respect any contracts and who kicked u out of a 20 years old programm with silly and rude excuses ... I dont know after all these slaps that they got how could u still trust them .... Is it psychological ?

 

[Combat-Master]

President Erdogan: "With Russia, We talked about what steps we will take in the construction of aircraft engines, regarding warplanes.we will take the some step in aircraft engines."

I wondered why job listings on TR Motor site had Russian language as a 'plus'.

 

[Anmdt]

These fields still very unlikely for turkey to go through alone ..esp with aircraft engines ... And imo russia is very likely to be the 1st option for TAI if their is a problem with f110 usage ... Forget to get any congress approval for any deal with the current american administration ... Its hostile against turkey and will use every chance to harm it .. coz we know how far biden loves greeks and pkk

Russians will never share the tech, will never be more than what US - Europe might give at the worst condition. The only way is to get solid partnerships, continue them fulfill the national goals. Russian will not contribute they will seek to make us more dependent on them.
They are even stingy to their long-time partners.

 

[Abdelaziz]

why do you live in a western country??? and not in a third world country??
It is funny that most of the third world country origins support all movements of akp ,!!

What is the link between the two subjects ? There is a lot of russian ,chinese, indians and nearly all nationalities living in the west .. for a personal reasons like my job , my family etc ... Its a totally different subjects ... and its more funnier that In the west they like chps .. we know why

 

[Cabatli_TR]

they dont get it. they only support what akp does. they are like our "götünün kılıyım" ones!!

Stay on topic please. You will receive a warning for the next similar violation

 

[Abdelaziz]

Russians will never share the tech, will never be more than what US - Europe might give at the worst condition. The only way is to get solid partnerships, continue them fulfill the national goals. Russian will not contribute they will seek to make us more dependent on them.
They are even stingy to their long-time partners.

U get me wrong ..i am not anti west or pro russian .. i am just saying .. go for the option that gives u the maximum benefit and having more than option give u better conditions when u negotiate

 

[Khagan1923]

I really sense he is trying to dynamite some development happening elsewhere, not particularly him but a few people from the inner circle who goes along with him to such meetings who brokers this kind of deals for a commission;

-GE announcing LM2500-500 production in turkey,
-TEI nearing to sign agreement for locally manufacturing F404,
-RR nearing to ink some deals on the future TF engine of MMU,
-TEI making some progress on TF engines (by partnering) for UCAVs

and then suddenly this happens, he makes some absurd statements and halts the entire progress happening.

It is clear that some in his inner circle have been turned by the Russians. And these people are doing anything to sabotage Turkeys relations to the west, which as bad they may be are necessary for our industry atm, which only benefits Russian.

Investigations will be necessary after the next election just how much Russians has been exerting power over certain individuals in the government and Erdogans own circle.

Im sure there will be some revelations that will answer the mess of a FP we have since 2016.

These statements can’t be explained any other way.

In one swoop he possible sabotages dozens of project that are ongoing right now. Just to replace them with a party that can’t even build a 5th gen jet on its own and whose engines literally are trash. If you made a chart Russian engines would be the bottom of the bottom.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

@Fighter_35

When you come back, I recommend that you learn how to discuss the topic in its entirety without breaking the rules in a respected defense forum.

 

[Kartal1]

I really sense he is trying to dynamite some development happening elsewhere, not particularly him but a few people from the inner circle who goes along with him to such meetings who brokers this kind of deals for a commission;

-GE announcing LM2500-500 production in turkey,
-TEI nearing to sign agreement for locally manufacturing F404,
-RR nearing to ink some deals on the future TF engine of MMU,
-TEI making some progress on TF engines (by partnering) for UCAVs

and then suddenly this happens, he makes some absurd statements and halts the entire progress happening.

I absolutely don't want to enter political discussion and the following that I will say is just as clarification. I don't like him much as politician but the thing I don't like more than him is his inner circle and especially when it comes to the defence industry and security matters. The only thing that such statements create are tension in the already established partnership with Western companies and work for the poor Mr. Ismail Demir to deny rumors created by all kinds of "analizers" and "experts".

 

[Combat-Master]

Russians will never share the tech, will never be more than what US - Europe might give at the worst condition. The only way is to get solid partnerships, continue them fulfill the national goals. Russian will not contribute they will seek to make us more dependent on them.
They are even stingy to their long-time partners.

Italy-Russia - M-346/Yak-130
S.Korea-Russia - KM-SAM
China-Russia - SU27K/J-11
India-Russia - BrahMos

Is Russia really a bad partner as the US or Europe when it comes to cooperation?

 

[Spook]

Italy-Russia - M-346/Yak-130
S.Korea-Russia - KM-SAM
China-Russia - SU27K/J-11
India-Russia - BrahMos

Is Russia really a bad partner as the US or Europe when it comes to cooperation?

Russia does not have any serious rivalry with any of these nations. All countries have their own defense industries, ahead of Russia in different areas. If Russia doesn't to sell them, they would lose money they could had made but also they sell knowingly that Korea, China, India etc would surpass their offerings eventually. Approach to Turkey is different as with rivalry. Even if they know we will eventually develop our systems. Now, same is with western approach. But in most cases, doing business with western companies is much much better.

 

[Combat-Master]

Russia does not have any serious rivalry with any of these nations. All countries have their own defense industries, ahead of Russia in different areas. If Russia doesn't to sell them, they would lose money they could had made but also they sell knowingly that Korea, China, India etc would surpass their offerings eventually. Approach to Turkey is different as with rivalry. Even if they know we will eventually develop our systems. Now, same is with western approach. But in most cases, doing business with western companies is much much better.

So which western company do you suppose would do business with Turkey in sharing critical technologies to develop systems, we already have heard that Germans are pussyfooting around the U-214 project. French and Italians SAMPT consortium god knows what has happened to it... These the western partners you speak of?

 

[Lool]

LOL biased much?

Because it is RTE it is automatically bad.

Why not because putting pressure on western companies to get better deals. Never bet all in one...

Tbh the Russians doesnt have a clean track record with tech sharing
However, if the deal is fair to both sides then why not co-operate
Russia is still the ones giving nuclear tech to Turkey after all

 

[Glass🚬]

If the so called "partners" from the west are again doing malicious behaviour when it comes to current defense deals than the russian option should be thoroughly explored.

 

[Ryder]

Members here all have great arguments.

For and against when it comes to cooperation.

Great arguments.

 

[the]

So which western company do you suppose would do business with Turkey in sharing critical technologies to develop systems, we already have heard that Germans are pussyfooting around the U-214 project. French and Italians SAMPT consortium god knows what has happened to it... These the western partners you speak of?

Germans are only acting like that because of Turkey's mistake to buy Russian tech. I mean seriously, who cares if the US didn't offer joint production or ToT with the Patriot. In the next 5-10 years Turkey would have produced its own indigenous systems to not really on partners for these 'crictical technologies'. Russian co-operation may result in slight benefit in the short term, but ultimately, its not worth losing credibility/support from Europe, let alone from the USA.

In Russia's eyes theres nothing to lose with providing such technological co-operation. But there's certainly significant gains. Its like the Sino-Soviet nuclear co-operation dilemma. Russia simply helped China build nuclear weapons/have access to Russia because they could use this as leverage against them. e.g. stalling or even shutting down operations in order to prolong China from 1) having access to such technologies 2) Prevent the inevitable, China pursuing its own independent path to nuclear proliferation - which, obviously, the Soviets would not be able to control.

In the same way, by Russia "helping" Turkey now, of course Turkey may have access to infrastructure e.g. space ports, but this would mean that 1) Turkey becomes dependent on Russia for such technologies 2) Russian can use this as leverage to hinder Turkish (independent) advancements 3) Russia can use this situation to 'monitor' its regional rival.

 

[Spook]

So which western company do you suppose would do business with Turkey in sharing critical technologies to develop systems, we already have heard that Germans are pussyfooting around the U-214 project. French and Italians SAMPT consortium god knows what has happened to it... These the western partners you speak of?

1) Keep their engineer base by delaying the project
2) Political reasons by governments to pressure Turkey

These major risks can be foreshadowed. No surprises.

SAMPT never advanced for political reasons, because of France.

There is many companies we do business with. From direct purchase to ToTs etc. We don't hear much as they are components but key for national projects.

Companies work on different mindset. They don't approach as nationalist like we do. Major solution providers accept deals. Including license production, strategic partnerships. Then there is government to government relations factor. Export licenses etc. but companies don't decide that. Companies would show effort to curb embargoes by locating to another country or start local production in that country. Thales would continue with local production. Hensoldt continue selling from third-party country etc. Teledyne would change components to make it ITAR-free etc. Companies will continue doing business with different approach. They adapt. I am not saying there is not going to limits but it doesn't end that fast.

Countries we have favorable relations with UK, Italy, Spain etc. BAE Systems, Leonardo join any tenders around the world. We work with Navantia, Indra etc. BAE Systems is in MMU program. We work with Leonardo. Component providers, we don't know. Possible partnerships etc. and not just favorable relations. If we go to GE, they have already established presence in Turkey. Offer partnership to supply engines to them with at lower costs. Make it exclusive for Milgem platforms, exports. They are going to want the deal. They don't go, yeah we are not giving that capability to Turks. That's government to government.

Now speaking of Russians. All the deals with them are government to government. Even if we buy something small as Turkey. Their government is going pull gimmicks. Masturbation. They are going to refuse systems we want as with western countries we have problems with. Not to forget, they are desperate for money. Lack resources as compared to international companies. They will do any monkeying until they receive money. Then fail to deliver. They are in their own bubble. They can't manufacture modern electronics but also can't accept reality of acquiring modern parts like from China. As it would diminish their fantasy image they are trying to portray. I wonder whats the fail rate for S300 series. I sure do not trust one comes from an Russian plant.

 

[Oublious]

Germans are only acting like that because of Turkey's mistake to buy Russian tech. I mean seriously, who cares if the US didn't offer joint production or ToT with the Patriot. In the next 5-10 years Turkey would have produced its own indigenous systems to not really on partners for these 'crictical technologies'. Russian co-operation may result in slight benefit in the short term, but ultimately, its not worth losing credibility/support from Europe, let alone from the USA.

In Russia's eyes theres nothing to lose with providing such technological co-operation. But there's certainly significant gains. Its like the Sino-Soviet nuclear co-operation dilemma. Russia simply helped China build nuclear weapons/have access to Russia because they could use this as leverage against them. e.g. stalling or even shutting down operations in order to prolong China from 1) having access to such technologies 2) Prevent the inevitable, China pursuing its own independent path to nuclear proliferation - which, obviously, the Soviets would not be able to control.

In the same way, by Russia "helping" Turkey now, of course Turkey may have access to infrastructure e.g. space ports, but this would mean that 1) Turkey becomes dependent on Russia for such technologies 2) Russian can use this as leverage to hinder Turkish (independent) advancements 3) Russia can use this situation to 'monitor' its regional rival.

Germans are the one who are not stopping to buy gas from Russians, even with pressure from Americans. So why would they make a problem about S400?

Ther problem is EEZ dispute between Greece. Greece crying about Turkey.

 

[Saithan]

Germans are the one who are not stopping to buy gas from Russians, even with pressure from Americans. So why would they make a problem about S400?

Ther problem is EEZ dispute between Greece. Greece crying about Turkey.

Basically it’s related to how well of you are, the countries CM mentioned are all better off than Turkey one way or another. And they are most certainly not head butting Russia at every corner. Just recall how people were quick to mention Italy not being trust worthy in Libya. Still hasn’t changed, but they’re not ever doing things alone. In short Italy makes business.

Turkey not so much because ummah takes priority. Besides it’s going to be a goading game and the west will wait for RTE to make more mistakes and slowly shut the faucet to a trickle.