TR Propulsion Systems

[Yasar_TR]

GE/US can get access to sensitive data about the fighter and the engine if the main contractor is TEI. That alone is enough reason for this approach. GE will also get a bigger pie if TEI is the main contractor. The main contractor, which owns the IP rights, sells the engines this is the reason IP rights are important. If TUSAS sells 500 fighters over 2 decades, that means over 1000 engines. Now TRMotor will sell the engines, and TEI will produce whatever work package TRMotor assigns to TEI.

You seem to have missed the main point here. As explained by Dr Aksit, GE doesn’t get involved in engine developments or production of TS1400, PD170 and TF6000. These are all products whose IP rights are in the hands of Turkish entities. There is an understanding between GE and TAI. Do you think GE will know anything sensitive about TF6000? Dr Aksit, during his interview had said that everything they do for these engines are done in a separate line free from GE involvement.
TEI produces these engines and as Tusas owns majority share of TEI, they control the IP rights. TS1400 is a good example. It’s IP right are owned by TEI and Tusas. We can sell it and tf6000 to any one we want. GE has no say in it.

Lets assume TEI is the main contractor and sells the engine for double the price of production to an export customer for 20 million dollars. 10 million is profit and GE gets 4.6 millions. If TRMotor sells the same product, TEI is paid for its workshare, and TRMotor will get all of the profit.

This is the important part. This is why TR Motor is there. Not for IP rights. IP rights is a smoke screen. So a thumbs up to your post for this paragraph.
That is why all engines are going through TR Motor company now. There is a lot of -“profit” - to be made here.

 

[Shtr]

Let me share 2024 profit of the TUSAS which might solve some issues.

https://iso500.org.tr/tusas-turk-havacilik-ve-uzay-sanayii-as?yil=2024&birinci500=1

Their profit around 50M $ before tax. What we are talking is really small amount of money. It is approximately 40M $ . This is roughly half of the Osimhen price. It is clearly that it is not related to profit.

 

[2033]

Let me share 2024 profit of the TUSAS which might solve some issues.

https://iso500.org.tr/tusas-turk-havacilik-ve-uzay-sanayii-as?yil=2024&birinci500=1

Their profit around 50M $ before tax. What we are talking is really small amount of money. It is approximately 40M $ . This is roughly half of the Osimhen price. It is clearly that it is not related to profit.

When too much investment is made, profits decline. You can't predict what will happen ten years from now.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Let me share 2024 profit of the TUSAS which might solve some issues.

https://iso500.org.tr/tusas-turk-havacilik-ve-uzay-sanayii-as?yil=2024&birinci500=1

Their profit around 50M $ before tax. What we are talking is really small amount of money. It is approximately 40M $ . This is roughly half of the Osimhen price. It is clearly that it is not related to profit.

Just a quick arithmetic for the next decade after serial production:
250 Kaan for Tuaf
48 Kaan for Indonesia
48 Kaan for Egypt
~100 Kaan for other countries like Pak, Azerbaycan, Saudi etc
makes 1000+ engines. at 8-10 million each you are looking at 8-10 billion dollars.
200KE forTuaf
200Anka3 for Tuaf.
~ 400 more planes for other countries
makes another 1000 tf6000/10000 engines at 5-6 million each makes 5-6 billion dollars.
So within a decade at least 15+ billion dollars of engine sales.

Take Tusas with 450 Kaans at 120 million each will make 54billion dollars
300Anka3 s at 40 million will be 12 billion. (I guesstimated Anka-3)
So just those two engines and planes will mean over 80 billion in sales in a decade or so after serial production start.

 

[Pokemonte13]

Just a quick arithmetic for the next decade after serial production:
250 Kaan for Tuaf
48 Kaan for Indonesia
48 Kaan for Egypt
~100 Kaan for other countries like Pak, Azerbaycan, Saudi etc
makes 1000+ engines. at 8-10 million each you are looking at 8-10 billion dollars.
200KE forTuaf
200Anka3 for Tuaf.
~ 400 more planes for other countries
makes another 1000 tf6000/10000 engines at 5-6 million each makes 5-6 billion dollars.
So within a decade at least 15+ billion dollars of engine sales.

Take Tusas with 450 Kaans at 120 million each will make 54billion dollars
300Anka3 s at 40 million will be 12 billion. (I guesstimated Anka-3)
So just those two engines and planes will mean over 80 billion in sales in a decade or so after serial production start.

where do you get these numbers

 

[TheInsider]

You seem to have missed the main point here. As explained by Dr Aksit, GE doesn’t get involved in engine developments or production of TS1400, PD170 and TF6000. These are all products whose IP rights are in the hands of Turkish entities. There is an understanding between GE and TAI. Do you think GE will know anything sensitive about TF6000? Dr Aksit, during his interview had said that everything they do for these engines are done in a separate line free from GE involvement.
TEI produces these engines and as Tusas owns majority share of TEI, they control the IP rights. TS1400 is a good example. It’s IP right are owned by TEI and Tusas. We can sell it and tf6000 to any one we want. GE has no say in it.

This is the important part. This is why TR Motor is there. Not for IP rights. IP rights is a smoke screen. So a thumbs up to your post for this paragraph.
That is why all engines are going through TR Motor company now. There is a lot of -“profit” - to be made here.

Akşit can tell whatever he wants. GE has seats in the board, has the backing of the US and GE is the biggest job provider for TEI and GE has a word for whatever happens in TEI. You can't just hide data from your second biggest shareholder when your company is the owner/main contractor of the project. That is not how it works. Akşit is conducting public relations. GE can get all the data about TF6000 if GE wants. TF6000 and TS-1400 are not important projects for them, so i doubt anyone on their side will get involved. They will probably just say don't spend the company's money for silly projects like those engines. We don't have money to throw around, and Akşit will tell them that he is not spending the company's money, government fully finances those projects and IP rights will belong to TEI and that is a win for the company.

 

[Yasar_TR]

where do you get these numbers

Just educated guesswork.
As Kaan is to replace 240+ F16 for TuAF
Indonesia already ordered 48 units.
Egypt already joined the Kaan program.
Pakistan wants to join.
UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Azerbaijan are likely contenders.
Price of Kaan originally given as 100million by Kotil, has since been declared as increased. So I conservatively guesstimated to be 120 million. Indonesia signed a deal worth 10 billion for 48 planes. That makes 208 million per plane. But that probably includes spares and training etc.

A 6000lbf class engine price varies from 4-5 million To 20 million if you have it manufactured to your own specs. (RR was awarded a 1.01 billion dollar contract for 210 goshawk Adour F405 engines) An engine like F135 was around 14-15 million dollars. But it is now estimated to be in excess of 20 million each. (If you have it manufactured to your specifications like F110GE132 for UAE, you pay 50 million each - 400 million for 80 engines-)

KE could be sold in higher quantities than I have given. Baykar joining forces with Italians opens up new avenues for them. TuAF should buy over the years at least equal numbers if not more than the Kaan numbers, if they are going to be accompanying Kaan as a loyal wingman. Same can be said for the Anka-3 even though it is mainly a deep strike drone. Tusas already sells UAVs and helicopters and planes to Tunisia, Nigeria, Malaysia, Kazakhstan, Indonesia, Kirghizistan, Egypt….It shouldn’t be too difficult to sell these in large quantities as they will be market leaders.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Akşit can tell whatever he wants.

No he can’t. He was responding to a question regarding GE’s stance towards TEI developing engines for Turkey, as the Managing Director of TEI. What he says binds him to be correct as the top piece of mouth of TEI.

GE has a word for whatever happens in TEI.

Exactly. And they have allowed TEI to work and develop engines for Turkey as long as TEI funds are not spent. At the end of the day when engines are sold, they get a share of the profit. And they are all state funded.

GE can get all the data about TF6000 if GE wants. TF6000 and TS-1400 are not important projects for them

Correct! That is why I wouldn’t worry about sensitive information being in their hands. GE is the teacher. TEI is the student. GE is a company that is working on ACE and CRDE. They are past the Turbofan tech.

government fully finances those projects and IP rights will belong to TEI.

As I have explained in my previous post. IP rights stays with TAI/Tusas as the owner of TEI. Being the majority shareholder Tusas will have the final say.

So IP rights is not the real issue here. It is the financial side that is important. By keeping all the IP rights of all engines under one roof makes things easier. That is all.

 

[TheInsider]

TF-35000 is an important project. GE/US would like to get as much data as possible about the engine, even if it is technologically backwards from their latest and greatest. And it is not just the engine data. If you are the main contractor of an engine that is being developed exclusively for a fighter, as the main contractor of the engine, you also get access to the sensitive data of the said fighter. If i were in the shoes of the US military intelligence, i would want to get detailed data about TF-35000 and KAAN projects.

 

[Zafer]

It is best to shake GE off going forward.

 

[Huelague]

TF-35000 is an important project. GE/US would like to get as much data as possible about the engine, even if it is technologically backwards from their latest and greatest. And it is not just the engine data. If you are the main contractor of an engine that is being developed exclusively for a fighter, as the main contractor of the engine, you also get access to the sensitive data of the said fighter. If i were in the shoes of the US military intelligence, i would want to get detailed data about TF-35000 and KAAN projects.

Nobody doubt what US/GE wants. The question is, what will they get.