TECHINT RCS patent of Su-57 fighter jet

[Bogeyman]

Some Russian forums shared the RCS patent of the SU-57.

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[blackjack]

Thanks for the very super old public information that was available for years. Here is a good source on how they measure theirs and western aircrafts. https://newsland.com/post/1299349-glavnyi-konstruktor-pak-fa-rasskazal-ob-istrebitele

 

[Gary]

Yup this is nothing new, as Quorans like Abhirup Sengupta likes to point out.

which makes it actually in the league of 4th gen fighters like the F/A-18 (clean) or the cancelled F-15SE silent eagle

Did you know the Su-57 Felon has the same RCS of a clean F/A-18 Super Hornet (and 1,000 times bigger than that of the F-35)? - The Aviation Geek Club

Did you know the Su-57 Felon has the same RCS of a clean F/A-18 Super Hornet (and 1,000 times bigger than that of the F-35)?

theaviationgeekclub.com

For a 5th generation fighters it lacks some components traditionally associated with a 5th gen fighters such as.

• Lack of Radar Absorbent Materials (RAM)
• Serpentine duct or enclosed air intake
• Spherical IRST instead of faceted panel like the AAQ-40 in F-35s , AIRST in F-22or the Chinese copy of EOTS in J-20
• Cmiiw but its AESA radar are non LPI
• Non serated nozzle

 

[blackjack]

A. Davidenko recalled that the fourth-generation aircraft - the Russian Su-27 or the American F-15 - have a reflected surface coefficient characterizing the radar visibility of the aircraft, within 12 square meters.
"The F-22 aircraft (the American fifth-generation fighter - IF-AVN) has 0.3-0.4 sq.m. We have similar requirements for visibility," Davydenko said.

interesting that they don't give .000000001m2 figures for the F-22. But I know that people with room temperature IQs do follow blog users like some religious figure and go fuck up their own reputation in the process so I will highlight the aircraft and changes of the aircraft that happened later since no-one follows the aircrafts program similar to why this thread was created posting old info like its new.

• RAM is present everywhere even in the inlets.
• The ducts are curved, use a patented design on shape with RAM and radar blockers.
• IRST is small turns back when not in use with RAM and stealth material when not in use.
• non-LPI/LPI radar is just cope when they have not stated what AESA modules are used or how they operate in public.
• Serrated nozzles came later.

i am starting to think that the user here might be the goofy blog user at this rate, probably explains why rockets were referenced for another aircrafts infrared detection than aircrafts themselves.

 

[Gary]

The F-22 only known publicly available data on RCS is 0.0001m^2 "on a certain angle" released by Lockheed Martin in 2009.

The U.S. Air Force, in it's effort to get money to build more F-22s, has revealed just how "stealthy" the F-22 is. It's RCS (Radar Cross Section) is the equivalent, for a radar, to a metal marble.

Link

The F-22 is tested in its ability to lower radar return. In 2013 it sneak up below the belly of two Iranian F-4s intercepting an MQ-1 while the two Phantoms are being guided by Iranian GCI radar. That means while there are 4 objects airborne at the time, the radar only detects 3.

U.S. F-22 stealth fighter pilot taunted Iranian F-4 Phantom combat planes over the Persian Gulf

Earlier this year, Pentagon Press Secretary George Little, said that an IRIAF (Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force) F-4 Phantom combat plane attempted to

theaviationist.com

There's no need to debate much on the Su-57 RCS when the original manufacturers themselves already stated that its RCS is at 0.1-1m^2. This is no surprise because as said earlier there are features on VLO aircraft that is absent from the Su-57.

Lets start with the IRST.

101KS-1 IRST

Su-57 is the ONLY fighter jets classified as 5th gen with a spherical dome. Others like the AAQ-40, AIRST and Chinese EOTS all uses faceted design because of the simple laws of physics that sphere scatter returns to every direction.

In the AAQ-40 and the J-20 EOTS (and TFX EOTS) there's a clear golden coloured tint, which is the Indium Tin Oxide to reflect radar,

that thing while isn't missing in the Su-57 IRST , The 101KS-1 IRST happens to be not the only spherical objects all around the Su-57, there's the two DIRCM turret with no Indium Tin Oxide, once radar wave entered the sensor, a lot of radar scattering will happen.

Then there's the air duct, the Su-57 again is the only one classified as 5th gen with non serpentine duct.

Even the 4.5gen KF-21 does the job better

They (Sukhoi) try using radar blocked in the inlet but that's not even close to S duct type intake, its closer to the F/A-18 treatment to reduce radar returns and we know F/A-18 is a 4th gen jet.

The Su-57 does have RAM coatings but not as extensive as the F-22/35 or the J-20.

The Su-57 has the paint scheme applied directly on the composite panels and main airframe. In contrast you’ve several inches thick RAM coating applied on the composite panels of pretty much every stealth aircraft since the F-117 which gives them the uniform (dark/grey) colour scheme (with different shades corresponding to the thickness and type of RAM in that area). There's a reason why serious 5th gen jet like the F-35, F-22, J-20 lacks the colourful paintjob of the Su-57

Last but not least, the engine

First batch engine will use the AL-41F1 inherited from the Su-35, the next batch will be the Izd 30. Abhirup Sengupta from Quora has a very nice explanation on the engines.

What is the difference between F-22 and Su-57 engines

The izdeliye 30 has serrated nozzles with a similar design to GE’s LO Axi design from late 1990s. It does provide notable IR signature reduction compared to conventional exhaust nozzles but it’s nowhere near F119 or F135 and we’ll get to the reason why.

The biggest difference is in the placement of their engine. The F119 not only benefits from F-22’s Serpentine intakes hiding the engine face but also has the engine nozzle well hidden behind the tail components.

Notice the concealed exhaust nozzle on F-22 using 4th gen. platforms as reference

This reduces the FoV from where the (hot) nozzle is visible which perhaps has the biggest impact on the IR signature. Unfortunately for Su-57 the izdeliye 30 not only have the (hot) engine core visible from a wide angle in the forward hemisphere (since it lacks a S-duct), the engine nozzles are pretty well exposed as well for a LO-aircraft.

Su-57’s vertical stabilisers doesn’t conceal the nozzles at all

Having the exhaust nozzle exposed from such a wide angle greatly reduces the effectiveness of IR-signature reduction methods and indirectly suggests that izdeliye 30 is likely to have only a modest IR-signature reduction. This is what greatly ruins Su-57’s IR signature just like the RCS.

 

[blackjack]

The F-22 only known publicly available data on RCS is 0.0001m^2 "on a certain angle" released by Lockheed Martin in 2009.

The U.S. Air Force, in it's effort to get money to build more F-22s, has revealed just how "stealthy" the F-22 is. It's RCS (Radar Cross Section) is the equivalent, for a radar, to a metal marble.

Alright I am glad that we do have an agreement that the frontal aspect of the F-22 is .0001m2. I just want to make sure your not a victim of propaganda. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm
"From the front, the F/A-22's signature is -40dBm2 (the size of a marble) while the F-35's is -30 dBm2 (the size of a golf ball)"
The earliest claim was from the front, but as time passed articles of have not included the from the front statement and I have seen the brightest people look stupid because of it.

There's no need to debate much on the Su-57 RCS when the original manufacturers themselves already stated that its RCS is at 0.1-1m^2. This is no surprise because as said earlier there are features on VLO aircraft that is absent from the Su-57.

If you believe that the RCS is 1m2-0.1m2 than you are going to have to admit what the general designer of the Su-57 said and that is putting the F-22 at 0.3m2-0.4m2. You can't have one thing while disagreeing with the other because if you go to mexico thinking the speed limits are in MPH than kilometers you will have to bribe Mexicans 20 dollars to not give you a ticket. He did have some courtesy putting the Su-57 currently at 0.5m2 but still plans to reduce the RCS with modifications on engines.

Lets start with the IRST.

101KS-1 IRST

Su-57 is the ONLY fighter jets classified as 5th gen with a spherical dome. Others like the AAQ-40, AIRST and Chinese EOTS all uses faceted design because of the simple laws of physics that sphere scatter returns to every direction.

In the AAQ-40 and the J-20 EOTS (and TFX EOTS) there's a clear golden coloured tint, which is the Indium Tin Oxide to reflect radar,

that thing while isn't missing in the Su-57 IRST , The 101KS-1 IRST happens to be not the only spherical objects all around the Su-57, there's the two DIRCM turret with no Indium Tin Oxide, once radar wave entered the sensor, a lot of radar scattering will happen.

Then there's the air duct, the Su-57 again is the only one classified as 5th gen with non serpentine duct.

Even the 4.5gen KF-21 does the job better

The two DIRCMs present from what I see in that picture shows that the cockpit of the aircraft already obscures the top one and the bottom one could be obscured if the aircraft descends going face to face with another aircraft. no Indium Tin Oxide, ahhh for fucks sake where are you pulling this shit from lol, Did the russians personally tell you what material they are using for DIRCM or their IRST system? When the bulbs are not on use they turn 180 degrees with RAM facing the direction of the adversary radar. Even than the Su-57 is receiving new sensors during the 2022-2024 phase 2 upgrades and pictures online already existed of using polygon faceted infrared detection systems but based on size and stealth material they see no need. Knowing you, you probably dont know but the Su-75 is using EOTS with saphire glass as well that is shaped like a polygon. But even than the F-35 and F-22 still dont have a present DIRCM and are limited to using flares and chaffs offering less survivability than aircrafts that have flares and chaffs but also extra countermeasures. Also no present IRST systems on the F-35 or F-22 or any present range other than you talking about falcon rockets lol. lets assume the bulb has a 20 centimeter size or 0.2m2 meters there is stealth material that exists to lower sizes 10, 100, 1000, or 10000 times the size and lets assume the IRST bulb when not in use with stealth material present offers an additional 0.0001m2 or .00001m2 and this gives the Su-57 a frontal aspect of .00011 or .0001m2. Heard that the F-22 can spot a .0001m2 target from 40kms away but the IRST system on the eurofighter sees a target from 50kms away and more than likely the OLS-50 can see even further away. Would you still want complete stealth removing those sensors? I have seen the TAI-TFX(my 2nd favorite 5th gen and might be 1st depending on what else I will see later) model have a polygon kind of shape with their IRST system no idea if the Su-57 2nd variant will follow the same path with the new sensors since the Su-75 already has that polygon faceted shape.

They (Sukhoi) try using radar blocked in the inlet but that's not even close to S duct type intake, its closer to the F/A-18 treatment to reduce radar returns and we know F/A-18 is a 4th gen jet.

The Su-57 does have RAM coatings but not as extensive as the F-22/35 or the J-20.

The Su-57 has the paint scheme applied directly on the composite panels and main airframe. In contrast you’ve several inches thick RAM coating applied on the composite panels of pretty much every stealth aircraft since the F-117 which gives them the uniform (dark/grey) colour scheme (with different shades corresponding to the thickness and type of RAM in that area). There's a reason why serious 5th gen jet like the F-35, F-22, J-20 lacks the colourful paintjob of the Su-57

F-18s use radar blockers but they are not the same patented design, they have straight ducts the Su-57 is curved. And of course since your a loyal follower your following very old information which has changed on the aircraft not really much of a surprise like the rest of your posts at this rate. The air intakes are curved in the Su-57 and not straight. A full S-duct was not chosen you get worse drag coefficient, and it kills the aircrafts top speed and acceleration. You are basically flying a brick at that point. In addition, because of all the gymnastics the air flow to the engine has to do with the S-duct, you get worse air flow to the engine, and even less performance. That and the fixed inlets are why certain aircrafts like the F-35 cannot super cruise and cannot reach Mach 2. The Su-57 uses a smoother partial S-duct, with less of a bend, it achieves some reduction of frontal engine profile, without killing performance too much, so it can go over Mach 2, and it can super cruise, even with the first stage engines. The engines also have a radar blocker in the intake to reduce RCS. Finally, it can apply the engine mesh screens to further reduce radar profile of the engine in case you need to, at cost of speed, and the second stage engine will have composite fan blades, and treatments to reduce RCS of the engine in the frontal aspect even without the mesh screens being engaged or without having S-ducts and fan blades are made of composite along with RAM coating. Trust me they have taken a lot of measures to reduce the RCS when they went with this design but we won't know if it offers more stealth or not while achieving high performance.

In regard to paintjobs, you chose a Su-57 without RAM for some reason than a Su-57 with RAM

Last but not least, the engine

First batch engine will use the AL-41F1 inherited from the Su-35, the next batch will be the Izd 30. Abhirup Sengupta from Quora has a very nice explanation on the engines.

Again the Su-57 uses Serrated nozzles and there were sources that stated the ones with the 1st stage engines will put them on their Su-35s while theirs get replaced with the 2nd stated engines. I remember how the Su-57 was criticized for not having flat square nozzles like the F-22.

They used square nozzles before on the Su-27 for reduced infrared signature, it killed the performance, so they used some kind of aerosol that helps reduce the engines infrared signature 3 to times less and went for the round serrated nozzle design. But now it seems there might be a way to bring the square flat nozzles back but maybe for later gen aircrafts since the Su-57 upgrades will only be the engines and sensor suite along with new weapons.

https://tass.com/defense/1375517

Su-57 fifth-generation fighter may get flat nozzle for stealth purposes — pilot​

The flat nozzle technology is a breakthrough in modern aircraft-building, Major-General Vladimir Popov noted

MOSCOW, December 14. /TASS/. The unique flat nozzle demonstrated during the roll-out of the latest S-70 ‘Okhotnik’ (‘Hunter’) heavy strike drone will most likely be installed on the next modifications of the Su-57 fifth-generation fighter for stealth purposes, Russian Air Force merited pilot Major-General Vladimir Popov told TASS on Tuesday.
Russia’s Defense Ministry uploaded a video clip earlier on Tuesday showing the roll-out of the latest version of the S-70 ‘Okhotnik’ stealth heavy strike drone furnished with a unique flat nozzle thruster to cut its signature for enemy radars.
"Similar measures will most likely be taken for the Su-57 but this will be, perhaps, the second stage of its development. A new engine will be mounted on it," the military pilot said, commenting on the roll-out of the first flight prototype of the latest Okhotnik heavy strike drone at the Novosibirsk Aviation Enterprise on December 14.
A modified engine will most likely feature a flat nozzle, he said. "However, considering that the fighter employs afterburner acceleration modes, this nozzle must have the option of altering its configuration," Popov said.

"Mounted on the fighter, it must both expand and narrow its throughput capacity," the pilot said, adding that the flat nozzle technology was undoubtedly a breakthrough in modern aircraft-building.

If you want to talk about who has better avionics and weapons, I am down for that to

 

[Gary]

If you believe that the RCS is 1m2-0.1m2 than you are going to have to admit what the general designer of the Su-57 said and that is putting the F-22 at 0.3m2-0.4m2. You can't have one thing while disagreeing with the other because if you go to mexico thinking the speed limits are in MPH than kilometers you will have to bribe Mexicans 20 dollars to not give you a ticket. He did have some courtesy putting the Su-57 currently at 0.5m2 but still plans to reduce the RCS with modifications on engines.

I disagree on nothing, in fact I emphasize conformity with both by accepting one manufacturer (Lockheed Martin) stating that its products has 0.0001m2 RCS while also agreeing on another manufacturer (Sukhoi JSC) stating that its products has 0.1-1 m2. Alexander Davydenko is an employee of Sukhoi and Lockheed Martin DOES NOT, I repeat DOES NOT share any technical details to both Sukhoi or Mr.Davydenko.

If I were to believe Mr. Davydenko I would be called a hypocrite because on one side I believed that F-22 RCS is @0.03m2 while Lockheed Martin themselves stated that its @0.0001m2. You can’t have one thing while disagreeing with the other right ?

The two DIRCMs present from what I see in that picture shows that the cockpit of the aircraft already obscures the top one and the bottom one could be obscured if the aircraft descends going face to face with another aircraft. no Indium Tin Oxide, ahhh for fucks sake where are you pulling this shit from lol, Did the russians personally tell you what material they are using for DIRCM or their IRST system? When the bulbs are not on use they turn 180 degrees with RAM facing the direction of the adversary radar. Even than the Su-57 is receiving new sensors during the 2022-2024 phase 2 upgrades and pictures online already existed of using polygon faceted infrared detection systems but based on size and stealth material they see no need. Knowing you, you probably dont know but the Su-75 is using EOTS with saphire glass as well that is shaped like a polygon. But even than the F-35 and F-22 still dont have a present DIRCM and are limited to using flares and chaffs offering less survivability than aircrafts that have flares and chaffs but also extra countermeasures. Also no present IRST systems on the F-35 or F-22 or any present range other than you talking about falcon rockets lol. lets assume the bulb has a 20 centimeter size or 0.2m2 meters there is stealth material that exists to lower sizes 10, 100, 1000, or 10000 times the size and lets assume the IRST bulb when not in use with stealth material present offers an additional 0.0001m2 or .00001m2 and this gives the Su-57 a frontal aspect of .00011 or .0001m2. Heard that the F-22 can spot a .0001m2 target from 40kms away but the IRST system on the eurofighter sees a target from 50kms away and more than likely the OLS-50 can see even further away. Would you still want complete stealth removing those sensors? I have seen the TAI-TFX(my 2nd favorite 5th gen and might be 1st depending on what else I will see later) model have a polygon kind of shape with their IRST system no idea if the Su-57 2nd variant will follow the same path with the new sensors since the Su-75 already has that polygon faceted shape.
View attachment 52973

1. The two DIRCMS are not tinted, and its material are not Indium Tin Oxide. Russia (and you) tries to calm thing down by saying that Su-57 IRST would be retracted back if not needed. But that means the Russians will have to choose between sacrificing stealth once using their IRST. Funny eh? And again don’t forget all are spherical . From all 5th and aspiring 5th gen jet, all uses faceted IRST design while Russia goes spherical, does the laws of physics differ ijn Russia ? Who knows.

That’s one hint why Sukhoi’s own patent puts it a 0.1m2 at best.

As for the Su-75, its clear they have learnt their mistake, especially with the duct design ,engine placement and finally why faceted IRST are better. Not only the IRST but also the canopy. Now Russia claimed that it has added ITO on its canopy, but even then the latest delivered batch to VKS doesn’t show any gold like tint on its canopy unlike th F-22/35. Is it good to believe their claim? I’m not going to answer that.

2. As for you “hinting” that the DIRCM makes the Felon far superior than the F-22/35 with “only” their chaff and flares. Keep this in mind, DIRCM are mainly useful against IR seeker present mostly in short range AAM. The F-22/35 is 1000 times less RCS than the Su-57 which equates to 6 times lesser detection range.

Now we do know in a BVR situation the APG-77v1 and APG-81 are a class of its own, not to mention both has a larger TR module (2000,1679 to Byelka 1550). We also know that Russian radar uses older slotted antenna while the APGs uses notch antenna which means lesser bandwidth for the Byelka. Not only the F-22/35 will detect the 1000 times larger RCS Felon, the Felon will never be close enough to sniff the F-22/35.

The knife is useful if you could make it near your enemy, but it would be tactically hard next to impossible to get close and go for the kill when your foe are armed with a machine gun. The DIRCM present on the Felon will be useful for the Su-57 if the F-22/35 jocks are dumb enough not to use their long range advantage to their use. In long range engagement the AMRAAM (Already un its D variant) most likely outperform the R-77 and its follow on JATM will be even better.

Then there’s the DAS…which would tell pilots if a launch happens near it. The situational awareness of the F-35 compared to the Su-57 (and many other jets) are akin to that of a convertible and a Lamborghini diablo.
The combination of the APG-77v1/81, AAQ-37 DAS, AAQ-40 EOTS and AN/ASQ-239 EW is not something many people will find pleasant. But we’ll talk sensor in another thread.

F-18s use radar blockers but they are not the same patented design, they have straight ducts the Su-57 is curved. And of course since your a loyal follower your following very old information which has changed on the aircraft not really much of a surprise like the rest of your posts at this rate. The air intakes are curved in the Su-57 and not straight.

The engine bay is by far the biggest contributor to Su-57 larger than usual RCS, you could reduce it by using radar blocker, but its clear it will be nowhere near the Y shaped duct on the F-22.35 and J-20 because in those planes the blades are FULLY hidden. That’s as simple as that.

You may claim that the F-18 does not uses the same patented design but the underlying problems stays the same.

A full S-duct was not chosen you get worse drag coefficient, and it kills the aircrafts top speed and acceleration. You are basically flying a brick at that point. In addition, because of all the gymnastics the air flow to the engine has to do with the S-duct, you get worse air flow to the engine, and even less performance. That and the fixed inlets are why certain aircrafts like the F-35 cannot super cruise and cannot reach Mach 2. The Su-57 uses a smoother partial S-duct, with less of a bend, it achieves some reduction of frontal engine profile, without killing performance too much, so it can go over Mach 2, and it can super cruise, even with the first stage engines. The engines also have a radar blocker in the intake to reduce RCS. Finally, it can apply the engine mesh screens to further reduce radar profile of the engine in case you need to, at cost of speed, and the second stage engine will have composite fan blades, and treatments to reduce RCS of the engine in the frontal aspect even without the mesh screens being engaged or without having S-ducts and fan blades are made of composite along with RAM coating. Trust me they have taken a lot of measures to reduce the RCS when they went with this design but we won't know if it offers more stealth or not while achieving high performance.

Your intended excuse is that S-duct will turn the plane into a brick, but people who had seen just how agile and fast the F-22 and F-35 (surprisingly) knows that this is either bullshit or a testament to Lockheed Martin engineering prowess.

If I were to nod to your claim that they reduced the S duct so that it doesn’t turn into a brick, that means Lockheed has solved what Sukhoi has yet to.

You want to know how fast the F-22 ?

F-22 Test Pilot Details The Raptor’s Incredible Speed

A chief test pilot on both the F-117 and the F-22, James “JB” Brown III, provides a fascinating inside look at these remarkable stealth jets.

www.thedrive.com

In regard to paintjobs, you chose a Su-57 without RAM for some reason than a Su-57 with RAM
View attachment 52976


View attachment 52977
Again the Su-57 uses Serrated nozzles and there were sources that stated the ones with the 1st stage engines will put them on their Su-35s while theirs get replaced with the 2nd stated engines. I remember how the Su-57 was criticized for not having flat square nozzles like the F-22.

You missed the point again as usual, its not the serated only prolem, if lets say the Su-57 finally gets it Izdeliye 30 the underlying problem will stay, that is the placement of the engine. In the F-22/35 the engine are hidden behind the tail component. In the Su-57, the nozzle protruded long enough so that the tail could not shield it. See here

This will affect detection not only in the radio spectrum but also IR spectrum. And the US electro optics are world beating. Sometimes I wonder, with that long protruding nozzle and unsealed engine core, what s the chance that 4th gen fighter like the F-15 equipped with IRST21 pod detects and kills it.

 

[blackjack]

I disagree on nothing, in fact I emphasize conformity with both by accepting one manufacturer (Lockheed Martin) stating that its products has 0.0001m2 RCS while also agreeing on another manufacturer (Sukhoi JSC) stating that its products has 0.1-1 m2. Alexander Davydenko is an employee of Sukhoi and Lockheed Martin DOES NOT, I repeat DOES NOT share any technical details to both Sukhoi or Mr.Davydenko.

If I were to believe Mr. Davydenko I would be called a hypocrite because on one side I believed that F-22 RCS is @0.03m2 while Lockheed Martin themselves stated that its @0.0001m2. You can’t have one thing while disagreeing with the other right ?

Davydenko is the head designer of the Su-57 you know the one that made the patent and construction layout of the aircraft not just some employee. The measurements of the F-22 and Su-57 already gives you what you need to know. .0001m2 is achievable because the front of the aircraft always has the smallest RCS along with RAM. If Davydenko chose to do the radar test with RAM and made measurements from the front at a certain favorable angle of the aircraft we would get similiar results....Before I decide to waste my time further on this topic do you see .0001m2 as just the measurement from the front or as the average RCS?

1. The two DIRCMS are not tinted, and its material are not Indium Tin Oxide. Russia (and you) tries to calm thing down by saying that Su-57 IRST would be retracted back if not needed. But that means the Russians will have to choose between sacrificing stealth once using their IRST. Funny eh? And again don’t forget all are spherical . From all 5th and aspiring 5th gen jet, all uses faceted IRST design while Russia goes spherical, does the laws of physics differ ijn Russia ? Who knows.

That’s one hint why Sukhoi’s own patent puts it a 0.1m2 at best.

1. Another just trust me bro arguement, I will say this the 2nd time what Indium Tin Oxide and how do you know its not present when they have not classified what stealth material they use in the 1st place? Russia goes spherical did you see my faceted polygon of the Su-75 while you were typing this or no? Why 0.1m2 when RAM is present or its not in use giving .0001m2 added values for all we know?

As for the Su-75, its clear they have learnt their mistake, especially with the duct design ,engine placement and finally why faceted IRST are better. Not only the IRST but also the canopy. Now Russia claimed that it has added ITO on its canopy, but even then the latest delivered batch to VKS doesn’t show any gold like tint on its canopy unlike th F-22/35. Is it good to believe their claim? I’m not going to answer that.

Well they did work a way around to not kill their engine performance going full S-duct similiar to why they abandoned the flat square nozzle approach but might come back to it. The range on the F-22 was laughable at the other thread so I hope that was not the aircrafts actual combat range. We will see if the new avionics for infrared systems will include faceted infrared systems or not because if they dont than measurements are grossly exaggerated because they already have the resources and materials present to make a faceted IRST, just like its not exclusive anymore that the US makes stealth ships when russians and turks are doing the same.

2. As for you “hinting” that the DIRCM makes the Felon far superior than the F-22/35 with “only” their chaff and flares. Keep this in mind, DIRCM are mainly useful against IR seeker present mostly in short range AAM. The F-22/35 is 1000 times less RCS than the Su-57 which equates to 6 times lesser detection range.

2. Do we even know the frontal RCS of the Su-57 measured with RAM and at a certain angle? I think I also forgot to include that the L-band arrays can jam the link 16 information between the AMRAAMs and F-22 or F-35, it states its jam resistant but that has yet to be found out similiar to B-2s and F-35s claiming to have LPI radars and transmission while there are claims from germans and czechs of testing their passive radars in detecting their presence. And of course this probably a no brainer but the Su-57 amount of radar modules across its body already gives the aircraft further and powerful EW supression capabilities especially when GaN MMIC modules are more than likely present on the Himalayas EW system since it was showcased in 2014 Rostecs pdf book and the aircraft is undergoing avionics modernization. Even if MADL is used, photonic radars would supress these frequencies along with the radar homing heads of most air to air missiles operating at firecontrol frequencies higher than X-band. Flares and chaffs I view as layer 1 defenses, DIRCM and EW supression against missile datalinks and missile homing heads is layer 2 which will be present on the Su-57 and maybe later on for the TFX depending on what their radar modules will operate in. Layer 3 will be physical destruction of incoming missiles via lasers that physically destroy or use a mini missile APS.

Now we do know in a BVR situation the APG-77v1 and APG-81 are a class of its own, not to mention both has a larger TR module (2000,1679 to Byelka 1550). We also know that Russian radar uses older slotted antenna while the APGs uses notch antenna which means lesser bandwidth for the Byelka. Not only the F-22/35 will detect the 1000 times larger RCS Felon, the Felon will never be close enough to sniff the F-22/35.

Dont get me wrong I would not choose a fight I know I would lose in any kind of arguements especially when I say the west is ahead of Russia in MMICs.BUT...you know that there has to be a reason why I would start something like this right lol? RTI and KRET in their own articles have stated they are 10-15 years behind the west in MMICs, meaning even if Russia gets a new MMIC radar in 2022-2024 in the avionics upgrade time frame with and better high performing modules it will surpass the F-22 but the F-35 will so surpass it as block 4 aircrafts using an/apg-85 since I have no proof just how much Russia's modules have improved to the latest U.S. probably form Qorvo. Well to cut to the chase sorry that I gave you an open present from the last paragraph but there is a high possibility that the radars the Su-57 would be a photonic one. Russia's radar companies went on a online purge when the war started(dont be surprised if the online links no longer work) but I am glad for highlighting the most important quotes at another certain forum.

«Тип цели уже не будет иметь значения»: глава концерна «РТИ Системы» — о развитии радиофотонных технологий для РЛС

Исследования в области радиофотоники, которые проводятся сейчас в России, позволят значительно улучшить возможности радиолокационных станций. Об этом в интервью RT рассказал генеральный директор АО «Концерн «РТИ Системы» Юрий Аношко. Радиофотоника — это область физики, сконцентрированная на...

russian.rt.com

- In 2018, the RTI Systems website announced the creation of the first experimental radar with elements of radio-photon technologies. It was emphasized that the appearance of such a product made it possible to confirm the possibility of using radio-photon technologies in radar. At the same time, it was noted that the radar had a lot of shortcomings and limitations in its use.

- Yes that's right. We have proven the fundamental possibility of integrating these technologies into radar systems. To obtain further large-scale results, research is required on the development of nodes for transmitting information to the optical range. What, in fact, our concern is doing.

Naturally, we do not work separately and we are building interaction with leading enterprises and research institutes in Russia, which have gained some experience in the field of research and implementation of radio photonics technologies into practice.

The center of concentration of our competencies is the site of the design center for radio photonics on the basis of the Academician A.L. Mints.

- Is it still possible to predict that the creation of a full-fledged radio photonic radar is a prospect for the coming decades, since it is necessary to solve too many complex problems?

- As I already noted, the issue of creating a prototype of a full-scale quantum locator is not on the agenda. It makes no sense to talk about any timing of the appearance of such a product yet also because many scientific and technological solutions will need confirmation of the right to exist for a long time.

Moreover, it should be borne in mind that the development and operation of a radio-photonic radar will entail the creation of a virtually new industry - it will be necessary to establish mass production of a wide range of completely new components, an elementary component base, fundamentally different systems and assemblies.

On the one hand, this opens up new horizons for the development of the high-tech sector in Russia, on the other, it is a resource-intensive and not at all fast process that will require the concentration of significant competencies and finances.

- Do you have an understanding of the stage at which projects in the field of radio-photonics abroad are?

- Earlier in the public space of foreign states there was a lot of information about the development of these technologies, but at a certain moment this flow stopped. This indicates that, in all likelihood, a certain level of development of radiophotonics has been reached abroad. The closure of information probably indicates that research has migrated to the practical plane.

- What place does Russia occupy in this eternal competition with the West?

- In order to compare the achievements of Russia and foreign states, you still need to have more complete information than what I have. However, I have no doubt that domestic science and industry are not lagging behind the West. Another question is which way of technological solutions will be the most correct.

https://itech.aorti.ru/upload/iblock/d00/RTI_2_2017.pdf

page 69 "Terahertz radar stations
can not only improve the accuracy of determining the coordinates and parameters of air
objects, but also to identify their type.
Small size and weight of the antenna
and devices of the terahertz range make it possible to create portable stations operating in conditions of smoke and atmospheric precipitation. Mass production
Radar of a new generation, according to the director
scientific and technical center "Terahertsy"
OJSC "RTI" by Alexey Vagin, may start
over the next 5 years. And in the structure
Concern "RTI" has enterprises that
able to master the serial production of such
devices based on the THz range: for example,
Yaroslavl Radio Plant.
In general, the comprehensive development of the THz-range is one of the key tasks of the scientific world.
It is gratifying that Russian scientists are making their own
a significant contribution to its solution.

start video at 31:54

https://itech.aorti.ru/ No. 1 (20) of 2018 As for semiconductor
modulators in microchip
performance, then in 2019 the research
work on this topic in which
OKB-Planeta OJSC is an industrial partner.
Within three to five years is possible
organization of the development, design and production of photonic
integrated circuits (FIS) both in packageless execution, and in the case.
The implementation of these plans will allow
JSC "RTI" take a leading position
in development and production
advanced domestic radio systems based on component
radiophotonic bases.

https://itech.aorti.ru/upload/iblock/467/rti_ii_4_19_2017.pdf page 24

When using radio-photonic schemes with external modulation, the laser emits in a continuous mode, and the modulation of the signal is carried out by the modulator. This is currently the approach made it possible to achieve maximum modulation frequencies of 100 GHz and data transmission rates up to 400 Gbit / s. The development of a component base for radiophotonics has begun in Russia. For example, a modulator based on lithium niobate was developed at the Physicotechnical Institute (FTI) named after A.F. Ioffe RAS. However, until now, there was practically no groundwork in the country integrated radio-photonics technologies for formation of FIS. As a result, NRNU MEPhI became one of the leading centers of excellence for creation of a cluster for integrated radio photonics.

ROFAR will be able to provide work antenna systems in active and passive radar mode, installation of all types interference, covert and anti-jamming data transmission, communication with the ground and other aircraft, state identification and a number of other functions. A few numbers. Currently the frequency radiation of modern radars is 10 GHz with 1-2 GHz bandwidth. At ROFAR she can oscillate at the same time from 1 to 100 GHz

https://rg.ru/2018/04/08/revoliuciia-v-tehnike-lokacii-v-rossii-sozdaetsia-radiofotonnaia-rls.html

A team of specialists on the basis of the Research Institute of long-range radar is developing a fundamentally new X-band radar station, operating on the basis of radiophoton technologies

For example, the basis of radar systems for missile defense and tracking of space objects are huge radar systems. The rooms in which the equipment is located are multi-storey buildings. The use of photonic technology will fit all the control and processing systems in much smaller dimensions - literally in several rooms. At the same time, the technical capabilities of radars to detect even small objects at a distance of thousands of kilometers will only increase. Moreover, due to the use of photonic technologies on the radar screen will appear not a mark of the target, and its image, which is unattainable by classical radar. That is, the operator instead of the usual glowing point will see that it is really flying - a plane, a rocket, a flock of birds or a meteorite, it is worth repeating, even thousands of kilometers from the radar.

Now all radar systems - military and civilian - operate in a strictly defined range of frequencies, which complicates technical design and leads to a variety of radar range. Photon radars will achieve the highest degree of unification. They are able to instantly adjust in a very wide range of working frequencies - from meter values to millimeters.

https://russian.rt.com/russia/article/760838-stels-tehnologii-radar-rti

"Now it is too early to talk about the imminent implementation of a new method of breeding moving objects. To date, it has been proven that it is theoretically possible. There's still a lot of work to do. I think it's going to take about seven years. But if all goes well, this method will give Russia a noticeable advantage on the battlefield," Denisentsev said.

На Чукотке к 2030 году построят радиолокационную станцию "Яхрома" - ТАСС

По словам источника ТАСС, она будет работать в автоматическом режиме, без постоянного присутствия людей на объекте

tass.ru

A source in the military-industrial complex then told TASS that the Yakhroma radar station has no analogues. The station will operate in four bands: meter, centimeter, decimeter and millimeter, the station will have a view of 270 degrees.

https://aviation21.ru/kret-radiofotonnye-radary-budut-sozdany-do-2018-goda/

"Modern EW systems provide a signal to the radio input of the device usually in the range of 70-80 decibels relative to its threshold sensitivity. Therefore, they can suppress, "close" the device, acting in the range, for example, 40 decibels. However, ROFAR devices can operate in a variety of ranges, such as 200 decibels. And even when 100 decibels are working on it, the radiophoton radar will not feel any difference. Therefore, it cannot be suppressed by traditional methods of electronic suppression," Mikheev said.

He noted that the photon crystal is able to work at such loads when other crystals simply evaporate."

http://xn----ctbsbazhbctieai.ru-an.info/новости/в-россии-создан-фотонный-радар-способный-обнаружить-любую-цель/

copy URL gives me the weird shit above.

Alexey Leonkov, a military expert of the magazine "Arsenal of the Fatherland" told about the revolutionary significance of the development in an interview with the Moscow Komsomolets.

"According to the analyst, the transition from electrons to photons will lead to the creation of a new generation of radars that will be able to process information using the electromagnetic waves of the microwave range. The speed of transmission of information will increase to hundreds of terabits per second, that is, the reflected signal will be processed instantly at all frequencies. Thus, it will be possible to increase the probability of identification of the target to 100%, radars will be able to detect any target. Alexey Leonkov believes it is important that the stations themselves will become smaller, but at the same time it will be much more effective, it will be more difficult for them to put interference. The new radiophoton radars will be 2-4 times smaller than Daryal. In addition, the thermal radiation will also decrease."

https://vpk.name/news/439890_v_ross...fotonnogo_radara_dlya_poiska_stels-celei.html

He also stressed that the new technology will allow to integrate the transmitter into the hull of the ship, aircraft or satellite, as well as increase the radar review sector. It is also worth saying that ROFAR is based on the original domestic component base.

Recall that the first reports about the development of a fundamentally new radar station based on radiophoton technologies appeared in 2018.

"The radar screen will not appear a mark of the target, but its image, which is unattainable by classical radar. That is, the operator instead of the usual glowing point will see that it is really flying - a plane, a rocket, a flock of birds or a meteorite, it is worth repeating, even thousands of kilometers from the radar, "- previously reported "RG."

https://tass.com/defense/1111675

"The RTI Joint Stock Company, a developer and producer of high-tech products, will create new radars that operate in terahertz frequency range and are capable of pinpointing the smallest drone, RTI CEO Pavel Laptayev told TASS.

"The terahertz technology [featuring radio wave length below one millimeter] will be converted into a product within five years. These radars can detect small drones, and function in space," Laptayev explained.

According to the CEO, the submillimeter radar enables a beam to be aimed on a relatively small object with extraordinary precision, impossible for other ranges, and identify its shape, material, speed and trajectory.

Laptayev admitted that RTI managed to achieve significant success in the terahertz range only in 2019, with the company mastering the components for such stations, and learning to identify objects and materials. According to the CEO, the RTI specialists now work on radar software that would swiftly and effectively classify a target and relay this information to the operator.

"This task will take more time than creating a prototype, because it requires accumulating data and implementing machine learning methods," the CEO specified.

Small drones are considered a serious threat because they can go unnoticed by conventional radars, especially when flying at low altitudes and low speed. For instance, drones rigged with explosives, attacked Saudi Aramco’s two largest refineries on September 14, 2019. The blasts and fires caused by the strike sent the world’s biggest oil exporter’s daily extraction plunging from 9.8 million bpd to 4.1 million bpd."

https://weaponews.com/news/11884-kr...hotonic-radar-for-the-aircraft-of-the-6t.html

"said mikheyev. He explained that "Conventional radar station (radar) radiation is generated by vacuum-tube or semiconductor devices, the efficiency is relatively low – 30-40%". The remaining 60-70% of the energy is converted into heat. The new radar a radar signal is obtained by converting photonic crystal laser coherent energy in a microwave radiation.
This transmitter efficiency will be not less than 60-70%. That is a big part of laser energy will be converted into a radar, with the result that we can create a radar of high power, said the deputy director. The locator will not be a separate module in the nose of the aircraft, it will be a distributed system. Something similar can be seen today on the fifth generation fighter t-50 radar which operates in different bands and in different directions. In fact it is a single locator, but he exploded on the plane. It turns out about three or four different radars, which are comfortably placed around the fuselage and can simultaneously observe all the space around the aircraft, said mikheyev. Radiophony radar will be able to see, according to our estimates, far beyond the existing radar."

https://fpi.gov.ru/press/news/razra...ntenna-voshla-v-top-10-izobreteniy-2020-goda/ photonic radar antennas in display and they are thin as paper which suggests they can be used like a smart skin of an aircraft which has been numerously said about the direction of the Su-57

https://www.vega.su/press-room/?ELEMENT_ID=2422

The Vega concern of the Ruselectronics holding (part of the Rostec State Corporation) has completed tests of a prototype demonstrator of an active phased antenna array based on radio photonics (ROFAR).

http://www.promweekly.ru/book/Phasatron-100_years.pdf

pdf page 14

The inexhaustibility of scientific thought
Among the promising developments are conformal AFARs that can fit
into the aircraft fuselage, and
the so-called "smart" airframe skin.
In next generation fighters,
including PAK FA, it will become, as it were, a single transceiver locator, providing the pilot with complete information
about what is happening around the aircraft.
Fazotron-NIIR continues development
national radar.

DonbassDevushka

You can view and join @DonbassDevushka right away.

t.me

This will be done by the resident of the SEZ "Technopolis Moscow" company "Zelenograd Nanotechnology Center" ("ZNTC"). It is one of the first in Russia to launch mass production of photonic integrated circuits and modules for telecommunications equipment. The transfer of information based on such developments is more than 100 times faster. Therefore, they are in demand in all industries where the installation of high-speed equipment is required: for example, for on-board equipment in the aerospace industry or for organizing 5/6G networks in telecommunications.

The enterprise is going to localize the production of optical multiplexers based on silicon technologies in Russia. The delivery of the first batches will begin in 2023, and serial production will start in 2024.


US attempts last time I checked regarding photonic radars and production.

Industry asked to develop microwave photonics components for RF and microwave applications like radar

DARPA wants lithium-niobate field-configurable modulator arrays (FCMAs) for RF links, RF signal processing, radar, and RF spectrum management.

www.militaryaerospace.com

Industry asked to develop microwave photonics components for RF and microwave applications like radar
DARPA wants lithium-niobate field-configurable modulator arrays (FCMAs) for RF links, RF signal processing, radar, and RF spectrum management.

Although microwave photonics represents an important technology for military applications, the military microwave photonic systems deployed to date repurpose commercial components for military functions.

The most recent developments in industrial telecommunications have been in specialized application-specific photonic integrated circuits (PICs). Today's military applications cannot use these devices, however, because application-specific PICs cannot be repurposed.

The FCMA must be able to operate from 1 MHz to 18 GHz, and use the nonlinear response of a Mach-Zehnder modulator to suppress a continuous-wave interference signal by 60 decibels to suppress an interference signal with 10 MHz instantaneous bandwidth by 40 decibels -- both while reducing the largest intermodulation distortion by 30 decibels.

The signals-intelligence configuration will improve the intrinsic third-order-limited spurious-free dynamic range of a Mach-Zehnder modulator by 10 decibels.

The radar-beamforming application will provide 360 degrees of RF phase shift that can be modulated at 100 kHz. The communications configuration, meanwhile, must support 10 gigabits per second of modulation on each of the in-phase and quadrature components of a lightwave.

https://www.raytheon.com/sites/defa...9/05/Raytheon_TechnologyToday_Issue2_2019.pdf "With all the advances occurring in
emerging PIC technologies, Raytheon
researchers and engineers are actively
pursuing both internal research and
customer-funded development programs
to investigate applications of PIC
technology in next generation products,
as well as to develop lower cost, higher
yield PIC packaging and manufacturing
processes"

I dont think I am being a cheater if say photonic radars on a Su-57 makes any 5th gen combat with the aircraft as good as screwed. Hoping 6th gens don't go with a GaN design.

The knife is useful if you could make it near your enemy, but it would be tactically hard next to impossible to get close and go for the kill when your foe are armed with a machine gun. The DIRCM present on the Felon will be useful for the Su-57 if the F-22/35 jocks are dumb enough not to use their long range advantage to their use. In long range engagement the AMRAAM (Already un its D variant) most likely outperform the R-77 and its follow on JATM will be even better.

Current K-77M missiles are said to have 193km ranges and from the looks of it there were tests of a ramjet version with an even longer range than the K-77M, than there is work on a 400km K-37M. An F-22 with a photonic radar would see a .01m2 target from 400kms away because the background noise levels of fiber optics gets lowered by 100 times than conventional radars. Even than I am curious how much stealth aircrafts are optimized to deal with 100ghz frequencies. the Molinya drones are 1.5 meters in length and Paralay states 8 could fit in a Su-57 compartment meaning if we take account for wing bay roots a total of 18 is possible with a stealth profile but the point i am getting at is CUDA is 1.6 to 1.7 meters and there drones have 700km ranges with 5kg payloads than there new missiles for the 2022-2024 modernization program is possible. F-35 speaks of MSDM but the only country testing 1 meter missiles is Russia testing with pantsirs and the amount of sensor coverage in 360 degree coverage if photonic radars were included will make it impossible because 4 missiles on each F-35 will get destroyed (F-35s are still working on increasing to 6 air to air missiles) Also Tu-160M2 uses air to air missiles against air to air missiles as self defense and the powerful sensors coverage on the Su-57 will draw my curiosity next on the TAI-TFX project later. Russia already beat the F-35 with their internal hypersonic air to ground missile Gremlin in development.

Then there’s the DAS…which would tell pilots if a launch happens near it. The situational awareness of the F-35 compared to the Su-57 (and many other jets) are akin to that of a convertible and a Lamborghini diablo.
The combination of the APG-77v1/81, AAQ-37 DAS, AAQ-40 EOTS and AN/ASQ-239 EW is not something many people will find pleasant. But we’ll talk sensor in another thread.

I know that the F-35 does not have 360 degree radar coverage like the Su-57 or TFX, but does it have UV 360 degree coverage if no than the Su-57 will have the broadest 360 degree coverage possible with sensor fusion collecting across many different spectrums.

The engine bay is by far the biggest contributor to Su-57 larger than usual RCS, you could reduce it by using radar blocker, but its clear it will be nowhere near the Y shaped duct on the F-22.35 and J-20 because in those planes the blades are FULLY hidden. That’s as simple as that.

You may claim that the F-18 does not uses the same patented design but the underlying problems stays the same.

Your intended excuse is that S-duct will turn the plane into a brick, but people who had seen just how agile and fast the F-22 and F-35 (surprisingly) knows that this is either bullshit or a testament to Lockheed Martin engineering prowess.

If I were to nod to your claim that they reduced the S duct so that it doesn’t turn into a brick, that means Lockheed has solved what Sukhoi has yet to.

You want to know how fast the F-22 ?

Again having an S-duct is nothing as exclusive as having a stealth ships the Su-47 had S-ducts but since they do not want to kill engine performance like how they tested square nozzles on the Su-27 they found an alternative. the alternative is that the Su-57 uses mesh screens, composite blades, blockers and has a curvature, use of S-shaped air inlet channels and their covering with radio absorbing materials, anti-radar grille is installed relative to the axis of the air channel, and is not considered straight the number of countermeasures it used to achieve a stealth reduction is something that has to get through to your head which is not comparable to how other aircrafts have their ducts using blockers. It is ridiculous to immediately assume that. S-duct will have a lower signature if they have not disclosed what the RCS is using their patented method. Unless you are going to go with the trust me bro approach like you have in your 1st paragraph?

Tell me the internal max range for the F-35s(without Advent) or the F-22 and how they compare to the Su-57 1st stage engines?

You missed the point again as usual, its not the serated only prolem, if lets say the Su-57 finally gets it Izdeliye 30 the underlying problem will stay, that is the placement of the engine. In the F-22/35 the engine are hidden behind the tail component. In the Su-57, the nozzle protruded long enough so that the tail could not shield it. See here

This will affect detection not only in the radio spectrum but also IR spectrum. And the US electro optics are world beating. Sometimes I wonder, with that long protruding nozzle and unsealed engine core, what s the chance that 4th gen fighter like the F-15 equipped with IRST21 pod detects and kills it.

So you posted a questionable design picture of the 1st stage but not the 2nd stage engines that are covered with RAM around the engines. the 1st photo still seems to show the engine nozzles on the side like the bottom, I dont get it? longer tails still offer an increase in RCS.

 

[Gary]

Davydenko is the head designer of the Su-57 you know the one that made the patent and construction layout of the aircraft not just some employee. The measurements of the F-22 and Su-57 already gives you what you need to know. .0001m2 is achievable because the front of the aircraft always has the smallest RCS along with RAM. If Davydenko chose to do the radar test with RAM and made measurements from the front at a certain favorable angle of the aircraft we would get similiar results....Before I decide to waste my time further on this topic do you see .0001m2 as just the measurement from the front or as the average RCS?

Head designer still means that he’s an employee no ? And until Lockheed Martin somehow give the Russians full access on its Raptors and Lightning IIs, this is at best knee jerking attempt at Lockheed Martin.

Sukhoi be like “ yea we can’t lower our RCS numbers so we just upped our competitors RCS to level the field”.

This argument is as dumb as the Iranians thinking that their speed boats could devastate a US CSG based on a 2002 war games, by which the planner (Van Riper) would not hire himself to the Iranians and the US military wont share the details on how he manages to do it.

I’m clear when I “” the word certain angles. But I would not disprove that the average RCS are not very far behind. This is the US, which has 2 operational VLO aircraft prior to the F-22. Meanwhile Russia is just starting, and their Su-75 checkmate shows they finally accept their earlier design flaw.

1. Another just trust me bro arguement, I will say this the 2nd time what Indium Tin Oxide and how do you know its not present when they have not classified what stealth material they use in the 1st place? Russia goes spherical did you see my faceted polygon of the Su-75 while you were typing this or no? Why 0.1m2 when RAM is present or its not in use giving .0001m2 added values for all we know?

I’m not here to be trusted or anything. But again I won’t dismiss Russia failing to do something with those spheres due to budgetary issues. ITO has a distinct yellowish/goldish color to it and I couldn’t see it in the Felon. Maybe the Russians find another material to replace ITO ? I don’t know 50/50.

Well they did work a way around to not kill their engine performance going full S-duct similiar to why they abandoned the flat square nozzle approach but might come back to it. The range on the F-22 was laughable at the other thread so I hope that was not the aircrafts actual combat range. We will see if the new avionics for infrared systems will include faceted infrared systems or not because if they dont than measurements are grossly exaggerated because they already have the resources and materials present to make a faceted IRST,

The range of the F-22 is hardly laughable when its intended operation is in Europe where everything of importance is within reach, Warsaw to Moscow is like 715miles, while the F-22 combat radius is 800. The F-22 replacement, the NGAD will rectify this problem with the 3 stream XA100 engine and would be operational by the time the Russian finally flew the Izd.30 powered Su-57.

A loss in range is not a big deal if its accompanied by a loss in RCS returns which is the raison d' etre of stealth. But I guess the Russians aren't serious on VLO aircraft in the first place.

just like its not exclusive anymore that the US makes stealth ships when russians and turks are doing the same.

If your “stealth” here is a reduced observability ship, than yes, everybody does that. Here’s a SIGMA 10514 our navy operates, But none of which are as impressive as the Zumwalt. Being able to reflect back signals only the size of a fishing boat from a 14000 tons warship.

I think I also forgot to include that the L-band arrays can jam the link 16 information between the AMRAAMs and F-22 or F-35, it states its jam resistant but that has yet to be found out .

No, the L band array cant jam shit and its mainly used as IFF transponders.

Is it true that there is sensor equipment on the Su-57 that can detect stealth fighters based on a certain band?

Abhirup Sengupta's answer: The Su-57 has two main sensors for detecting enemy aircraft, the N036 X-band radar which is the primary means of Situational Awareness on the aircraft and the 101KS-V IRST, which is mostly used in cued-search slaved to the radar. There’s also the EW suite or RWR as well...

militaryairspace.quora.com

And of course this probably a no brainer but the Su-57 amount of radar modules across its body already gives the aircraft further and powerful EW supression capabilities especially when

This is dumb, the main radars itself N036 Byelka has only 1500 or so TRM, the side AESA only has 440 TRM.

I could hardly understand what's the point of having side AESA radar with less than a third of the main radar TRM let alone the tiny radar in the back, does it helps to detect ? nope the main radar will do just that, does it help the main radar offensive EW ? nope its not even as powerful.

And we do know that the N036 is not as capable in offensive EW as the APG-77/77v1 or the APG-81. The Europeans funded an entirely new radar just for this (ECRS MK2) and none has been fielded yet.

 

[blackjack]

Head designer still means that he’s an employee no ? And until Lockheed Martin somehow give the Russians full access on its Raptors and Lightning IIs, this is at best knee jerking attempt at Lockheed Martin.

Sukhoi be like “ yea we can’t lower our RCS numbers so we just upped our competitors RCS to level the field”.

This argument is as dumb as the Iranians thinking that their speed boats could devastate a US CSG based on a 2002 war games, by which the planner (Van Riper) would not hire himself to the Iranians and the US military wont share the details on how he manages to do it.

I’m clear when I “” the word certain angles. But I would not disprove that the average RCS are not very far behind. This is the US, which has 2 operational VLO aircraft prior to the F-22. Meanwhile Russia is just starting, and their Su-75 checkmate shows they finally accept their earlier design flaw.

As the saying goes, 3rd time is the charm, which I hope it is anyways. Is .0001m2 to the frontal RCS or the average RCS? This questions needs to be answered 1st and its not a trick question but one that can help me help you. Its like a person wants to start an arguement about the existence of santa but he does not choose if Santa does or does not exist. Because if you answer this 50/50 question it will help us narrow the problem down. By no means am I asking this question to you in any condescending way.

The range of the F-22 is hardly laughable when its intended operation is in Europe where everything of importance is within reach, Warsaw to Moscow is like 715miles, while the F-22 combat radius is 800. The F-22 replacement, the NGAD will rectify this problem with the 3 stream XA100 engine and would be operational by the time the Russian finally flew the Izd.30 powered Su-57.

A loss in range is not a big deal if its accompanied by a loss in RCS returns which is the raison d' etre of stealth. But I guess the Russians aren't serious on VLO aircraft in the first place.

470 nautical miles for combat range was what I saw for the F-22 when it was compared to NGAD or 870kms and because combat radius is usually half the ferry range that narrows it to 1,740kms. wikipedia gives 850kms for supercruise or 1093kms for a subsonic supercruise. Now of course the fuel capacity of the F-22 is lower being 8,200kg so we will just divide the fuel capacity of the Su-57 10,300kg by 8,200 to give us 1.25609756098 times 2,186kms we get a 2,745km range which is 755kms short of the Su-57 1st stage but the F-22. However the 1st stage can only supercruise at mach 1.3 while the F-22 can supercruise at mach 1.82. The reason one has longer range and the other has fast speeds is because Russia is pretty big to cover so a high bypass ratio was needed for them while a low bypass ratio was needed for the F-22. The 2nd stage engine basically combines both qualities. https://naukatehnika.com/novyj-dvigatel-dlya-su-57.html?ysclid=lday1xkdx827137572 It will have the fuel efficiency of the AL-31F engine meaning if the Su-27 max range is 3,530kms(depending what sources you look but this number is the median between high and low figures) with 9,400kg than to get it to 10,300kg the range would be 3,867km max range and depending what source you look at https://topcor.ru/29005-mw-rossija-...-pokolenija-5.html?ysclid=ldaypiicd4673907709 you would get supercruise figures of mach 1.8 or mach 2+. So to be honest it would be unfair to compare this to F-22 because this is a new engine. But the bothersome part is if they are using the F-22 470 nautical mile range that means they are using supercruise numbers and that that 1000+ nautical miles is 1852kms+ than the max range is 3,704+kms technically speaking. But the NGAD is bigger thus more fuel meaning the Su-57 with mach 1.8-mach 2+ supercruise capabilities will be passed the 4000km mark if Russia was jokingly going to botch up a design similar to NGAD but with more fuel by just using the 2nd stage engines. Now if we rewind back to our past conversation, you did make a valid point that the U.S. announced their 1st phase of testing for 3 stream cycle engines while Russia hasn't,

for the fun of it Russia announce that their 1st phase detonation engine tests were completed. https://rostec.ru/en/news/rostec-tests-demonstrator-engine-for-spaceplanes/ meaning mach 3+ performances could be achieved and range increases of 1.3-1.5 times could mean the 4000kms for a NGAD like design for Russia would give 5,200km-6000km ranges. https://dzen.ru/a/YNCjyNRZZ1jVlli6 russias Aristide material handles higher heatloads, self-regeneration properties from bullets and lesser weight than aluminum or titanium which can further increase russias thrust to weight ratios, and they have created heat shielding for hypersonic aircrafts that allow their electronic equipment to still function https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?lang=RU&nid=516338&rid= so the final step is a drone being able to operate in hypersonic speeds, since they have done tests with subsonic Su-70s, Su-75 will have drone version so they will be supersonic before they jump onto hypersonic drones operating near space meaning anything considered stealth would be destroyed which is why I would rightfully call this a 6th gen design than someone telling me 6th gen is just more stealth which i would just say its a 5th gen+ design.

No, the L band array cant jam shit and its mainly used as IFF transponders.

Abhirup, i think you find it funny pissing me off. The L-band radar array purposes were never disclosed. Let me be your role model instead of him.

This is dumb, the main radars itself N036 Byelka has only 1500 or so TRM, the side AESA only has 440 TRM.

I could hardly understand what's the point of having side AESA radar with less than a third of the main radar TRM let alone the tiny radar in the back, does it helps to detect ? nope the main radar will do just that, does it help the main radar offensive EW ? nope its not even as powerful.

And we do know that the N036 is not as capable in offensive EW as the APG-77/77v1 or the APG-81. The Europeans funded an entirely new radar just for this (ECRS MK2) and none has been fielded yet.

I see 1514, 404 for both, so thats 2,322 T/R modules or could be more because of avionic upgrades and the Himalayas in the back uses GaN modules. So we are talking about some heavy EW suppression.

 

[Hasan Uralmt]

Hello Blackjack how are you, how do you do?

I know a lot of dudes just randomly attack russian tech, wanted you to see this. The Su-57 does have full on S ducts both from a 2d axis and a 3d axis, you can actually see this in the following 2 pics I will provide.
View attachment main-qimg-22f2123fba826f2052fe768a38976401-lq.jfif

View attachment download (5).jfif








So as you can see the S duct problem has been dealt with, and if that is not enough you have radar blockers and if that also is not enough you have RAM and if that is not enough here is a response from this quora site:

to mask the significant RCS contribution of the engine face, the partial serpentine inlet obscures most, but not all, of the engine’s fan and inlet guide-vanes (IGV). In the intake passage there is a set special device, partially overlapping in the axial direction of the GMV preventing electromagnetic waves. In addition to screening, this constructive solution separates inlet channel into several different cylindrical or planar voids, and, flat surface of the cavities can be both parallel and intersecting. Such a complex segmentation and channeled air intake cover wall segments with radar absorbing materials reduces the power of the electromagnetic waves reflected from the engine face and from wall cavities, thus providing a decrease of the RCS in the forward hemisphere of the aircraft. The radar blockers provide a further reduction in RCS of the frontal hemisphere.

What's bad about the Su-57's stealth?

Answer (1 of 9): In 2012 Sukhoi Design Bureau published a patent describing the RCS-reduction measures of Su-57. The patent claimed the Su-57 having a frontal-RCS between 1 to 0.1 m^2. This was the design goal of the program. > For a known aircraft [Su-27] the RCS value is about 10–15 m (here t...

www.quora.com

many people say the Su-57 paint scheme is not ram but in reality 25% of the aircraft weight is special composite material including RAM. and according to the Australians 4 things make up stealth, shape,shape,shape, and material.

The canopy and IRST is treated with indium tin oxide.

If these dudes are crying about the Su-57 being not stealth because of the notorious image about the compressor phase then here is how to debunk them. See this video:

If the Su-57 isn't stealth because of this thing, then so is the yf 23.
Also the aircraft does have ram, colouring is not what makes ram the thing it is, it is about the thickness and quantity. and the russians have a lot.
and people cry bout the su 57 rivets (although they are only on prototypes) all the time. like look at this raptor.
View attachment main-qimg-695577ebbb9512142b91fcabb5e5726a-lq.jfif

I don't care about the explanation, russians could also make explanations and stupid excuses. but here the raw performance will not be affected only because it is american. also notice the gaps in the american "stealth" fighter jets.

Ok I can't pretty much open it, so write F-22 panel gaps and it should immediately pop up.