TR Sensors and Detector Programs

[Pokemonte13]

So I guess alp 400 together with yirad will be the last elements to enter service as alp 500 is already in service/production

 

[TheInsider]

So I guess alp 400 together with yirad will be the last elements to enter service as alp 500 is already in service/production

Yes, they are probably the final ground-based sensors together with the passive radar system and STR-800G orbital tracking radar. There will be satellite-based early warning and SAR sensors. I guess we can also count UAV and airplane-based early warning radars, they are all interlinked.

 

[Samba]

Yes, they are probably the final ground-based sensors together with the passive radar system and STR-800G orbital tracking radar. There will be satellite-based early warning and SAR sensors. I guess we can also count UAV and airplane-based early warning radars, they are all interlinked.

What is the longest distance these radars can detect an f35 and send data to AD or fighters? Any reasonable guesses?

 

[TheInsider]

Orbital tracking radar is not useful for the detection of F-35. Its purpose is to detect and track items orbiting Earth.
Passive radar can detect F-35 from several hundred kilometers in favorable conditions. But it is an inherently different sensor compared to active radars and has caveats.

YIRAD is for the detection of ballistic missiles and hypersonic targets at high altitudes. It is not a system tailored towards F-35.
ALP-400G VHF radar can detect F-35 from several hundred kilometers, but it can't provide a precise firing solution.

 

[Oublious]

Gökyüzünde oyun değiştiren teknoloji: #ASELSAN MURAD AESA Burun Radarı. Game-changing technology in the sky: ASELSAN MURAD AESA Nose Radar.

 

[zio]

Next level is ground based bisatatic /multistatic aesa radar.

 

[TheInsider]

Murad-600A will have 4x max output power and 4x aperture area compared to Murad-100A. If you do the math (radar equation) in theory this changes will increase the maximum range by 2.828x, so we can safely assume Murad-600A to have at least 2.5x range compared to Murad-100A.

 

[Afif]

Murad-600A will have 4x max output power and 4x aperture area compared to Murad-100A. If you do the math (radar equation) in theory this changes will increase the maximum range by 2.828x, so we can safely assume Murad-600A to have at least 2.5x range compared to Murad-100A.

4000 TRM?

 

[TheInsider]

4000 TRM?

2304 TRM for the nose(144 subarray, 16x TRM per subarray) compared to 1152 TRM for Murad-100A(72 subarray 16x TRM per subarray) 2x peak power per TRM compared to Murad-100A (30W vs 60W) for a total of 4x max power output. Subarray tiles will be bigger.

Cheek and aft radars rumorud to have 576 TRM/ 36 subarray. 3x576+2304=4032 TRM modules

Dual-band (S/X) radar is planned for block 30

 

[Afif]

2304 TRM for the nose(144 subarray, 16x TRM per subarray) compared to 1152 TRM for Murad-100A(72 subarray 16x TRM per subarray) 2x peak power per TRM compared to Murad-100A (30W vs 60W) for a total of 4x max power output. Subarray tiles will be bigger.

Cheek and aft radars rumorud to have 576 TRM/ 36 subarray. 3x576+2304=4032 TRM modules

Dual-band (S/X) radar is planned for block 30

Thanks, That make sense. But could you tell how did you calculate 2.8x maximum range increase? I am seem to be getting 2x only (For the nose array comparison) using the formula AESA radar calculator developer gave.

((2304/1152)^3*(60/30))^(1/4)

=2.

 

[TheInsider]

Thanks, That make sense. But could you tell how did you calculate 2.8x maximum range increase? I am seem to be getting 2x only (For the nose array comparison) using the formula AESA radar calculator developer gave.

((2304/1152)^3*(60/30))^(1/4)

=2.

Both aperture area and output power affect the radar range.

The number of TR modules alone has no direct effect. The number of TR modules is only important if it affects the total output power or aperture size.

Rmax: Maximum detection range (meters)
Pt: Radar transmitter power (watts) (1x for radar 1, 4x for radar 2 1152X30 vs 2304X60)
G: Radar antenna gain (dimensionless)
λ: Radar signal wavelength (meters, same for both radars so not important when comparing)
σ: Radar cross-section / RCS of the target (square meters, same for both radars not important when comparing)
Pmin:Minimum detectable signal / receiver sensitivity (watts, I assume the same for both radars unless Murad-600A is more sensitive)
Ae: Aperture area (1x for radar 1, 4x for radar 2)

We rearrange formula 1 and write 1 in place of λ, σ. Since Pmin is also the same for both radars, the denominator can be removed.
Rmax ∝ (Pt.G^2)^1/4

G is directly proportional to Ae because λ is same for both radars.

Rmax ∝ (Pt.Ae^2)^1/4

Increase Pt to 4Pt and Ae to 4Ae (4Pt.4Ae^2)^1/4
(4Pt.16Ae)^1/4= (64)^1/4= 2√2= 2.828

When everything else is the same a radar that has 4x output power and 4x aperture area has 2.828 more range compared to the baseline radar. Of course this doesn't take into account real life lossess that might come with a bigger aperture size and more power pushed down a module.

If we only increase power 4x detection range only increse by 4^1/4= 1.41 times
If we only increase aperture area 4x detection range increase by (4^2)^1/4= 4^1/2= 2 times.

 

[Strong AI]

We develop the most critical components of our electro-optical systems with national capabilities.

Leveraging our expertise in microelectronics, we have positioned Türkiye among the select countries capable of developing and manufacturing infrared detectors.

 

[TheInsider]

This is important because we knew that Aselsan has been using its homegrown detectors for sometime but now they are actively marketing those detectors, which means Aselsan ramped up production of those products, and there are better versions in the pipeline.

It is also important that Aselsan has mastered the production of both MCT and T2SL detectors and offers them for sale.

 

[TheInsider]

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[Afif]

Both aperture area and output power affect the radar range.

The number of TR modules alone has no direct effect. The number of TR modules is only important if it affects the total output power or aperture size.

Yes, but in practice adding more TRM increases the aperture size proportionally. And if it is the same TRM, it will increase the total emission output too. Let alone a more powerful one.

View attachment 81853

View attachment 81854

Rmax: Maximum detection range (meters)
Pt: Radar transmitter power (watts) (1x for radar 1, 4x for radar 2 1152X30 vs 2304X60)
G: Radar antenna gain (dimensionless)
λ: Radar signal wavelength (meters, same for both radars so not important when comparing)
σ: Radar cross-section / RCS of the target (square meters, same for both radars not important when comparing)
Pmin:Minimum detectable signal / receiver sensitivity (watts, I assume the same for both radars unless Murad-600A is more sensitive)
Ae: Aperture area (1x for radar 1, 4x for radar 2)

We rearrange formula 1 and write 1 in place of λ, σ. Since Pmin is also the same for both radars, the denominator can be removed.
Rmax ∝ (Pt.G^2)^1/4

G is directly proportional to Ae because λ is same for both radars.

Rmax ∝ (Pt.Ae^2)^1/4

Increase Pt to 4Pt and Ae to 4Ae (4Pt.4Ae^2)^1/4
(4Pt.16Ae)^1/4= (64)^1/4= 2√2= 2.828

When everything else is the same a radar that has 4x output power and 4x aperture area has 2.828 more range compared to the baseline radar. Of course this doesn't take into account real life lossess that might come with a bigger aperture size and more power pushed down a module.

If we only increase power 4x detection range only increse by 4^1/4= 1.41 times
If we only increase aperture area 4x detection range increase by (4^2)^1/4= 4^1/2= 2 times.

I thought, roughly 4x aperture area include all four (frontal, two sides and rear) arrays of KAAN.

Otherwise, how is only 2304 TRM frontal array has four time aperture area compared to 1156 TRM array when both radar has the same signal wavelength/X band?

Aperture area increase has to be proportional to number of TRM increase as the aperture geometry/distance between each TRM is scaled to the signal wavelength. Each antenna element is typically half a wavelength apart. Otherwise, you are gonna have spatial aliasing.

So if you do (4Pt•2Ae^2)^1/4, you get 2 as fourth root.

Same as this ((2304/1152)^3*(60/30))^(1/4)

 

[Yasar_TR]

Both aperture area and output power affect the radar range.

The number of TR modules alone has no direct effect. The number of TR modules is only important if it affects the total output power or aperture size.

Bro that bold statement is not entirely correct and a bit self contradictory. I think you meant something slightly different. Can you please open it up a bit? I am no Radar specialist. But according to my logic and according to Aesa radar 101 theory;

Increasing the number of Transmit/Receive (T/R) modules in an Active Electronically Scanned Array (Aesa) radar directly increases its maximum detection range.
More modules raise the total radiated power and improve receiver sensitivity, which strengthens the radar signal returned from distant targets.

How T/R Modules Affect Range:
More Power: Each module adds its own power amplifier. More modules mean higher total output power.
Better Signal: Power scales up faster than noise. A larger array captures and focuses the returning radio waves much better.
Narrower Beam: More modules allow the radar to form a tighter, sharper beam. A focused beam sends more energy straight to the target.

Radar range relies on the Power-Aperture Product (PAP), which multiplies the total transmitted power by the effective antenna area. Because each T/R module adds both power and antenna elements, doubling the number of modules roughly doubles the power-aperture product. In basic physics terms, radar detection range scales with Poole-appropriate radar equations as the fourth root of power and antenna gain, meaning large additions of T/R modules yield meaningful, incremental boosts to maximum detection distance.

So as I understand it: Doubling the modules does not actually double the range. It multiplies range by \(\sqrt[4]{2}\), which equals about 1.189 (a 19% increase). So the range is directly related to the number of modules and their power and gain parameters. Albeit at a reduced manner.

Active Phased-Array Radar T/R Module Technology

T/R modules for active phased-array radars: design, MMIC chipsets, power & efficiency, thermal management, noise figure, integration, beamforming.

www.allpcb.com

Active Phased-Array Radar T/R Module Technology

T/R modules for active phased-array radars: design, MMIC chipsets, power & efficiency, thermal management, noise figure, integration, beamforming.

www.allpcb.com

 

[Huelague]

I am no Radar specialist.

@Nutuk is.

 

[TheInsider]

Bro that bold statement is not entirely correct and a bit self contradictory. I think you meant something slightly different. Can you please open it up a bit? I am no Radar specialist. But according to my logic and according to Aesa radar 101 theory;

Increasing the number of Transmit/Receive (T/R) modules in an Active Electronically Scanned Array (Aesa) radar directly increases its maximum detection range.
More modules raise the total radiated power and improve receiver sensitivity, which strengthens the radar signal returned from distant targets.

How T/R Modules Affect Range:
More Power: Each module adds its own power amplifier. More modules mean higher total output power.
Better Signal: Power scales up faster than noise. A larger array captures and focuses the returning radio waves much better.
Narrower Beam: More modules allow the radar to form a tighter, sharper beam. A focused beam sends more energy straight to the target.

Radar range relies on the Power-Aperture Product (PAP), which multiplies the total transmitted power by the effective antenna area. Because each T/R module adds both power and antenna elements, doubling the number of modules roughly doubles the power-aperture product. In basic physics terms, radar detection range scales with Poole-appropriate radar equations as the fourth root of power and antenna gain, meaning large additions of T/R modules yield meaningful, incremental boosts to maximum detection distance.

So as I understand it: Doubling the modules does not actually double the range. It multiplies range by \(\sqrt[4]{2}\), which equals about 1.189 (a 19% increase). So the range is directly related to the number of modules and their power and gain parameters. Albeit at a reduced manner.

Active Phased-Array Radar T/R Module Technology

T/R modules for active phased-array radars: design, MMIC chipsets, power & efficiency, thermal management, noise figure, integration, beamforming.

www.allpcb.com

Active Phased-Array Radar T/R Module Technology

T/R modules for active phased-array radars: design, MMIC chipsets, power & efficiency, thermal management, noise figure, integration, beamforming.

www.allpcb.com

More modules do not necessarily mean more output. 10x 30W modules and 5x60W modules have the same output.
Bigger aperture=narrower beam. more modules does not necassarily mean bigger aperture.
Beam width is determined by aperture size not how densely modules are packed. More modules are only good if overal aperture size increases.
If everything(aperture size, output power, wavelength, etc.) stays the same doubling module amount increase range by %19 by improving signal to noise ratio if you can take advantage of that.
More modules improves resolution so better tracking etc.

 

[Yasar_TR]

More modules do not necessarily mean more output. 10x 30W modules and 5x60W modules have the same output.
Bigger aperture=narrower beam. more modules does not necassarily mean bigger aperture.
Beam width is determined by aperture size not how densely modules are packed. More modules are only good if overal aperture size increases.
If everything(aperture size, output power, wavelength, etc.) stays the same doubling module amount increase range by %19 by improving signal to noise ratio if you can take advantage of that.
More modules improves resolution so better tracking etc.

Anyone who thinks like your first paragraph needs to have his intelligence questioned.

more modules does not necassarily mean bigger aperture.

No! But all things being equal you would get a bigger aperture with more modules.
Because:
The aperture of an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar is the physical surface area of the antenna face.

So my understanding is, the aperture size is directly proportional to number of modules. For a given size and output power per module, the more modules means more aperture size. Also the more power and gain they have the better focused beam and range.
Although smaller modules may pack more elements into an aperture, increasing total power would create heat challenges.

You are making me learn more about Aesa radars.