Sinking of Indian Navy Frigate INS Khukri by Pakistan

[Jackdaws]

Some Pakistanis, have a tendency of getting over the drubbing received in various wars with India by trying to claim some mythical 1000 year reign.

To quote @Kaptaan -

" However from the India POV it gave them the first victory in a 1,000 years and that is why they will tout it for thre next 1,000 years as the greatest victory ever and ever."

Indians call BS on that. It is of course the finest hour of the Indian Military of the Republic of India. But that's where it ends.

By the way, where did @Kaptaan pull the 1000 years from? I mean he is a Think Tank Analyst here - so it would be great to know the source of this analysis. @Saiyan0321

 

[Nilgiri]

"However from the <insert country> POV it gave them the first victory in a 1,000 years " is trolling and that should be deleted....especially given the member is avowedly not from that country to comment on such a thing as "POV" and hypocritically (and contradictorily) has even affirmed the country only came into existence in the 20th century...yet now it suddenly has existed a 1000 years for this trolling statement.

Trying to play a bit smarter by changing it from the previous trolling incident of using the same words but involving a religion is not going to get a pass I'm afraid.

 

[Nilgiri]

"When the muslim banglas turned on the muslim Pakistan soldiers"...the question must first arise as to who started it.....because something prompted that turn, and it had nothing to do with religion either other than proving a point that religion does not make sufficient reason for nationhood, especially at the exclusion and repression of other basic things nationhood needs to be built upon.

In fact such actions (that prompted this turning) went against any religion.

 

[Saiyan0321]

The other rubbish I keep hearing is PA has not won a war. Even if that is true and we go with this proposition the much vaunted German Army never won a single war in the 20th century. It got brutally defeated twice and last time even ceased to exist. But nobody has ever made fun of it or derided it as a fighting force. Indeed quite the contrary the German Army is highly respect for it's fighting record even if was defeated because any historian will know that the Germany Army always faced overwheming odds.

military aspects arent the scars. Military operations fail and wars are lost. It was hardly a world shattering incident in the long river of history. A great case study for military enthusiast and a lesson for the state hw the gun doesnt solve all the problems of the state but never to chide 50 years later. Faraz in his poem peshawar katilo actually talks about it that the lost soldiers were welcomed with open arms because losing isnt the problem but ther problem is the fact that the military still interfered and tried to bring islamism in the form of Zia and suppressed independent thinkers. that they had not learned.

And that quote from the report about wine, women etc is infantile. All armies in WW2 on both sides indulged in wine, women and even shooting prisoners etc. Thus is nature of war. Only Pakistani's with their stupid infatuation with pious behaviour judge officers if they are teetollers. Some of the greatest generals were drunks and womanizers and that includes Napoloen and Ataturk.

Well the army is to blame for that. The army has perfectly employed islamic image in the most perfect manner and this constant feeding to the people that the country is a fortress of Islam and the army is its guardian, has created an image where a soldier is more likely to be harshly judged on his religious piety rather than military skills. I am sure it produced some positives however the negative was that religious piety became a large expectation from the pakistan military. The mess is that the army is extremely secular. I know many military men that enjoyed their drinks and in their early years, were into womanizing. So the report focusing

Pakistan should have taken 1971 to learn and finally move on. Instead Pakistan injected even more of the failed thinking. The Turkish losses in WW1 gave way to understanding that religion was not a sufficient vehicle to build countries on. Yes, religion can help but one should not entirely build a foundation on religion. When the Arab Muslims, Kurdish Muslims turned on the Ottoman armies and joined the European invaders it was a singular lesson. The Turks learn't and moved forwar.

Neither Bhutto nor the military learned especially consideirng the fact that they both were in the forefront of the issue and should have known but Bhutto started the Islamic downfall by once more, creating divisions in the country and then after religious divisions, went on to create political differenced by banning political parties that were opposed to PPP. NAP was the major victim in this and we are talking about the same guy that spread so much scare in west Pakistan on the 6 points that anybody that even discussed them was branded as a traitor. After bhutto, Zia injected Islamism to such a level that to this day the country struggles. Whereas Bhutto introduced Muslim definition, he introduced non-muslim definition and where Bhutto had inserted the anti-national clause in Article 10, Zia brought in the FSC and when his own FSC declared the Hadd as unislamic, he removed all of them and brought changes to the FSC to accommodate religious scholars into a court. True that Pakistan should have focused entirely on West Pakistan by then and although there were many independent movements ongoing then, but the country should have focused on a pragmatic solution rather than double down.

 

[Saiyan0321]

@Kaptaan also for some reason, there is an air that Pakistanis ignore 1971 especially amongst Indians. This is an absolute misinformation. There is perhaps no other subject that has more scholarship than 1971. The amount of Urdu books, aside, the amount of english books alone are enough and each of them analyze the political incidents in a very fine manner and i have seen most of them blame both bhutto and the military establishment whereas a handful like to give excuses for Bhutto but nevertheless even in our books fromk Punjab board, the incident is remembered as the failure of political and military brass.

Provide Ten reasons for the fall of Dhakka?

The above was a question that would always come and i remember we would be learning the six points of mujib by heart along with reasons of fall which included the military operation and political difference. So i have no idea when people say that we gloss over that history. It is the most studied period that anybody that is writing Pakistan's history will cover this subject and if he wants his book sold, then he will cover it in a manner that will include blame to military and political leadership.

I talked about constitutional history of Pakistan by Hamid Khan. He actually covers the subject in a very perfect manner where he highlights faults on both sides and what the military were thinking, bhutto was thinking and what mujid was thinking and where the faults were and he talks about the six points as well and whether there was any discussion on it. He talks particularly of bhutto and his role.

I cant give more evidence than this and if people still disbelief then its their problem now

 

[Kaptaan]

soldiers were welcomed with open arms because losing isnt the problem

My maternal uncle was one of them. I always respected him. He passed away some years ago and had fought in WW2 in FF rifles. I will post his picture sometime. Today as always it is the Pakistan Army that gives Pakistan backbone. This is why Indian's despise it. There they are. All 1. 4 billion of them which is just over 1/5th of humanity and they can't bring Pakistan to it's knees. Lahore is only 14 miles from Indian border. 14 god damned miles that they can't grab. For a nation of 1.4 billion 14 miles is 1.4 billion miles. This is what brings the wrath of the Indian's. As long as I breath I will always defend PA in memory of my uncle and many other brave souls, some who never came back but were claimed by that swamp 1,200 miles away.

Defeat. Warriors sometimes lose. Here is good capture of the German Army defeat -

 

[Kaptaan]

has even affirmed the country only came into existence in the 20th century..

India also came into existence on August 1947. If you want to debate that discussion open another thread. And it is a fact. Hindus of South Asia were conquered, oppressed for 1,000 years until British came and rescued them. You might not like this but this fact.

 

[Saiyan0321]

My maternal uncle was one of them. I always respected him. He passed away some years ago and had fought in WW2 in FF rifles. I will post his picture sometime. Today as always it is the Pakistan Army that gives Pakistan backbone. This is why Indian's despise it. There they are. All 1. 4 billion of them which is just over 1/5th of humanity and they can't bring Pakistan to it's knees. Lahore is only 14 miles from Indian border. 14 god damned miles that they can't grab. For a nation of 1.4 billion 14 miles is 1.4 billion miles. This is what brings the wrath of the Indian's. As long as I breath I will always defend PA in memory of my uncle and many other brave souls, some who never came back but were claimed by that swamp 1,200 miles away.

Defeat. Warriors sometimes lose. Here is good capture of the German Army defeat -

Sure. Looking forward to it.

 

[Saiyan0321]

India also came into existence on August 1947. If you want to debate that discussion open another thread. And it is a fact. Hindus of South Asia were conquered, oppressed for 1,000 years until British came and rescued them. You might not like this but this fact.

You can use either of history of pakistan or books and research material thread. Infact I think thread has slowly drifted away from naval engagement.

 

[Jackdaws]

India also came into existence on August 1947. If you want to debate that discussion open another thread. And it is a fact. Hindus of South Asia were conquered, oppressed for 1,000 years until British came and rescued them. You might not like this but this fact.

Is this from a Pakistani textbook? Because it's not rooted in real history.

 

[Kaptaan]

Correction: Outskirts of Lahore are about 4 god damned miles. For the mighty superpower those 4 miles suffer from some distortion of law of physics and might as well be 4 billion miles. It being noted that if Lahore was captured by India Pak would be finished. In fact India could hen use Lahore to force a unconditional surrender where Pakistan gives up Kashmir and is forced to hand over Azad Kashmir. Similar to how the force of arms made the German accept defeat and had to give up huge tracts of Pomeriania, Danzig etc to Poles. Peace would be imposed on South Asia.

But can the giant elephant do that to the tiny mouse? Nope. That is the bottom line and the frustration.

Please refer to annotated map below that explicates everything I said.

 

[Kaptaan]

Is this from a Pakistani textbook?

No, sorry it's not certainly from a Hindutwa book. I am British born and educated. And am against religion etc. Never read a single Pakistani history book in my life. So your Hindutwa train just derailed there. Try refusting what I said instead of going tangent and trying to use cliches to support your case.

 

[Jackdaws]

No, sorry it's not certainly from a Hindutwa book. I am British born and educated. And am against religion etc. Never read a single Pakistani history book in my life. So your Hindutwa train just derailed there. Try refusting what I said instead of going tangent and trying to use cliches to support your case.

I will once I know the source of your hypothesis. Is it based on some scholarly work or hearsay?

 

[Saiyan0321]

Ok I think we have drifted off topic long enough. @Kaptaan you can post your entire indus research and argue on the history of muslim rule in the region in the research thread.

 

[Nilgiri]

Posts seeking to derail and cause religion based flaming have been reported.

A new thread based on the region's history can certainly be started for analysis (as long as rules are followed), but that is not the topic here.

Indian members are also advised to not troll or counter-troll, but just use report button or not enter thread in first place if intent is to troll.