Sixth Generation Fighter Aircrafts

[TheInsider]

Only the US and China will have real 6th gens. Other projects are more like 5.5th gen that can be achieved with KAAN project.

 

[Huelague]

Never. Tying such an important future program to whims of Germany is like giving a loaded gun to a toddler and hoping it wouldn't be able to pull the trigger. If we were to join any 6th gen program, it would be GCAP and even then, I'd highly doubt it.

Never say never and remember the history…

First, Germany has understood the importance of an air superiority combat system. Germany is pushing more than any other country in EU for an armament. Whims will you not see their. We don’t need the project. Germany (most important EU defense project), need them.

In any case, 6th gen is not something we should be truly concerned about imo. I think with 5th gen we have come to the point that next iterations won't be leaps in technology like between 4th and 5th but rather refinements and small improvements. Hell, no one even has a proper definition yet other than everyone going for even flatter geometry to try to reduce to RCS and possibly higher power generation to give the planes better electronic counter measures.

Not concerned, but stay attached not to lose the thread again. Yes, we are working on a 6. Gen fighter jet already (T. Kotil), but there is a lot we can gain (ToT) by entrance the FCAS project. Which will that be, would be seen in the future .

Mastering the 5th gen, longer range AA missiles with seekers and drones to accompany Kaan should be our focus, especially since we have a far limited budget and staff resources than others like China or US or countries in these programs.

One does not exclude the other. We are working on more than one project.
About the budget, Germany has decided for a limitless Defence budget. So, the project is financially save.

 

[Huelague]

Only the US and China will have real 6th gens. Other projects are more like 5.5th gen that can be achieved with KAAN project.

Tempest and FCAS are two more. And maybe Russia could follow.

 

[Agha Sher]

Tempest and FCAS are two more. And maybe Russia could follow.

Russia cannot even develop a 5. gen

 

[TheInsider]

Tempest and FCAS are two more. And maybe Russia could follow.

Tempest and FCAS are not 6th gen. Russia should develop a proper 5th gen first.

 

[Huelague]

Tempest and FCAS are not 6th gen. Russia should develop a proper 5th gen first.

Tempest and FCAS are declared as a 6th Gen. Fighter jet. Do you have other informations?

 

[TheInsider]

Tempest and FCAS are declared as a 6th Gen. Fighter jet. Do you have other informations?

Yes, I have. It doesn't matter what project owners declare; I have eyes and I can see clearly. Those fighters you mentioned don't have adaptive cycle engines; their geometry doesn't support wide-spectrum stealth. These two can't be added later on. Currently, only China and the US are developing a technological marvel called adaptive cycle engine, and only those countries have managed to demonstrate fighter-level maneuverability and stability without the use of a tail, which is very important for wide-spectrum stealth. If Turkiye one day develops a 6th gen, it will be derived from the experience TAI has been gaining from the Anka-3 project. FCAS is dead and Tempest will probably be a 5th gen with some 6th gen capabilities similar to how F-16 block 70 is a 4th gen with some 5th gen capabilities. BTW both China and the US will deploy their 6th gen in 2030s. Those 2 will be a full generation ahead of the rest.

 

[TheInsider]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1985011805698007501

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1984953644547023009

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1984909952104993174

 

[Tabmachine]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1985011805698007501

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1984953644547023009

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1984909952104993174

Heres something interesting I found a while back:

By Wang Haifeng, former Chief Designer at Chengdu

Key Technologies for Co-design of High-Performance Fighter Jets and Engines​

https://hkxb.buaa.edu.cn/CN/10.7527/S1000-6893.2024.29978
(you can open the html version and use browser translate on the chinese)

Abstract:

The future operational environment imposes higher and more comprehensive requirements for the performance of fighters, calling for deeper integration between fighter airframe and engine and closer collaborative design during fighter research and development. Building on theories and practices for optimum airframe-engine integration in fighter design in the past decades, this paper proposes a collaborative airframe-engine design concept. Through an analysis of the combat requirements of Penetrating Counter Air (PCA) and other operational concepts, this paper then presents the essential capabilities of high performance fighters and looks into the requirements of future-oriented collaborative airframe-engine design. The key technologies concerning flight performance, stealth characteristics, flight control and aircraft energy are discussed, and the possible implementation approaches and suggestions for design and research are also provided.

 

[Quasar]

Tempest, FCAS….. J 20, J 35 or J 36 V.S F 22 ... I still bet on F 22

 

[Huelague]

Yes, I have. It doesn't matter what project owners declare; I have eyes and I can see clearly. Those fighters you mentioned don't have adaptive cycle engines; their geometry doesn't support wide-spectrum stealth. These two can't be added later on. Currently, only China and the US are developing a technological marvel called adaptive cycle engine, and only those countries have managed to demonstrate fighter-level maneuverability and stability without the use of a tail, which is very important for wide-spectrum stealth. If Turkiye one day develops a 6th gen, it will be derived from the experience TAI has been gaining from the Anka-3 project. FCAS is dead and Tempest will probably be a 5th gen with some 6th gen capabilities similar to how F-16 block 70 is a 4th gen with some 5th gen capabilities. BTW both China and the US will deploy their 6th gen in 2030s. Those 2 will be a full generation ahead of the rest.

About 6. Generation Fighter Jet Specifications:

What Defines 6th-Generation Fighter Aircraft?

Kampfflugzeuge: Was kann die 6. Generation?

NGAD, F-47, GCAP, FCAS & Co: Worin unterscheiden sich die Kampfflugzeuge der 6. Generation von ihren Vorgängern? Was zeichnet sie aus?

militaeraktuell.at

About the engine.

New Generation Fighter Engine - MTU Aero Engines

MTU entwickelt das NGFE-Triebwerk für Europas FCAS – modernste Technologie für den Luftkampf von morgen.

www.mtu.de

 

[Yasar_TR]

What defines a generation difference of jet fighters is the very fact that if one plane contains significantly important technologies that can not be retrofitted on to a previous generation plane, than the latter is a generation ahead of the other.

As preliminary prerequisites, 6th generation planes should:

1. fly at much higher service altitudes than previous generation planes.
2. contain technologies that can easily power directed energy weapons.
3. due to 1st point should employ adaptive cycle engines or have technologies that will serve to that effect..

Tempest conforms to all the above.
RR , a company that was developing Variable Cycle engines in late 70‘s for the Concorde and now offering it to India for their AMCA engine, could have easily gone through the VCE route. But chose not to. Instead went for heavy usage of electrification to make up for the VCE. The use of a more electric architecture is intended to replace the need for a traditional variable cycle engine by providing flexibility through software and electrical power management.

For a fact Tempest design picture has changed no less than three times so far. Same goes for the F47. Until both planes start to appear physically, we can only use conjecture.

A plane without vertical stabilisers is very difficult to manoeuvre. That is a fact. If a dogfighting capable jet is expected out of a F47, then it will become a compromise. Yes vertical stabilisers impart problems with stealth. But you can’t have the best of both worlds. We still don’t know enough about the Tempest shape.

In fact if studied, one can see that both Tempest and F47 have very different end use targets.
Key differences include; F47 with a longer range and higher speed at higher altitudes. Yet Tempest is to have a big payload capacity and that it will outperform all current 5th generation planes in all areas. One major advantage that F47 have is that it is at least 4 years ahead of Tempest program.

The crunch lies in this advantage of F47. Japan could easily ditch the program because of it and US pressure, and go with purchasing F47. That would put the spanner in the works for Tempest.


EDIT

According to @Huelague ’s above post, German/French Engine were to be a VCE too.

 

[Spitfire9]

What defines a generation difference of jet fighters is the very fact that if one plane contains significantly important technologies that can not be retrofitted on to a previous generation plane, than the latter is a generation ahead of the other.

As preliminary prerequisites, 6th generation planes should:

1. fly at much higher service altitudes than previous generation planes.
2. contain technologies that can easily power directed energy weapons.
3. due to 1st point should employ adaptive cycle engines or have technologies that will serve to that effect..

Tempest conforms to all the above.
RR , a company that was developing Variable Cycle engines in late 70‘s for the Concorde and now offering it to India for their AMCA engine, could have easily gone through the VCE route. But chose not to. Instead went for heavy usage of electrification to make up for the VCE. The use of a more electric architecture is intended to replace the need for a traditional variable cycle engine by providing flexibility through software and electrical power management.

For a fact Tempest design picture has changed no less than three times so far. Same goes for the F47. Until both planes start to appear physically, we can only use conjecture.

A plane without vertical stabilisers is very difficult to manoeuvre. That is a fact. If a dogfighting capable jet is expected out of a F47, then it will become a compromise. Yes vertical stabilisers impart problems with stealth. But you can’t have the best of both worlds. We still don’t know enough about the Tempest shape.

In fact if studied, one can see that both Tempest and F47 have very different end use targets.
Key differences include; F47 with a longer range and higher speed at higher altitudes. Yet Tempest is to have a big payload capacity and that it will outperform all current 5th generation planes in all areas. One major advantage that F47 have is that it is at least 4 years ahead of Tempest program.

The crunch lies in this advantage of F47. Japan could easily ditch the program because of it and US pressure, and go with purchasing F47. That would put the spanner in the works for Tempest.

Without Japan I do not think the UK would continue. I think the go/no go for commitment to GCAP is scheduled for the end of this year (I am not 100% sure). Again, I guess that the contract between Japan, the UK and Italy will have very strict terms whereby pulling out will cost the partner concerned a very large amount of money. People in the UK involved in the development of Eurofighter remember Germany wanting the aircraft to be redesigned for a time. That caused a big delay and increased development cost.

I also think that the contract will make it much more expensive for a partner to block exports - as happened with Germany blocking export to Turkiye.

 

[Huelague]

@TheInsider

About the „ACE“ on FCAS

„The variable cycle engine (VCE) architecture allows flexible adaptation to operational requirements, resulting in high specific thrust and low fuel consumption. The VCE architecture differs from conventional drive systems primarily by an adjustment mechanism and an additional flow channel. With the help of the adjustment mechanism, the engine control regulates how much sucked-in air flows through the respective flow channels and the core engine. Thanks to this variable distribution, the thermodynamic cycle of the engine can be optimally adapted to the most common operating requirements and thus guarantees a high specific thrust and low fuel consumption.“

Kurz erklärt: New Generation Fighter Engine

Triebwerk der nächsten Generation: Einblicke in die Schlüsseltechnologien hinter dem New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE).

aeroreport.de

 

[TheInsider]

@TheInsider

About the „ACE“ on FCAS

„The variable cycle engine (VCE) architecture allows flexible adaptation to operational requirements, resulting in high specific thrust and low fuel consumption. The VCE architecture differs from conventional drive systems primarily by an adjustment mechanism and an additional flow channel. With the help of the adjustment mechanism, the engine control regulates how much sucked-in air flows through the respective flow channels and the core engine. Thanks to this variable distribution, the thermodynamic cycle of the engine can be optimally adapted to the most common operating requirements and thus guarantees a high specific thrust and low fuel consumption.“

Kurz erklärt: New Generation Fighter Engine

Triebwerk der nächsten Generation: Einblicke in die Schlüsseltechnologien hinter dem New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE).

aeroreport.de

There is no FCAS and there is also no French ACE.

 

[Yasar_TR]

According to news coming in from media sources RR have not really given up on an Adaptive Cycle Engine. In fact it has it in its programme going forward. But seeing what has happened with F35 whilst being part of the initial development, and what problems it is still living with, they have decided to put it as a retro fitting idea for next iteration of the Tempest. For the first iteration they will play it safe.

Integrating an ACE to a plane is not an easy task. This is a totally new technology that will have to be integrated in to a platform that has been primarily designed to be flown with turbofan engines.

Integrating an adaptive cycle engine (ACE) into a jet aircraft is difficult due to the engine's inherent design complexity. ACE features unique operational components such as Core-Driven Fan Stages and mode selection valves with variable area bypass injectors.
It is all very well firing and testing these engines on their own. But having to integrate them to a flying jet fighter in real life is another story. Ensuring all components are performance-matched across the entire flight envelope for a plane is a major engineering challenge and improper matching can lead to instability and/or efficiency problems.
Thermal management of the ACE’s third stream in to the plane’s specific architecture is a challenge in it’s own right. Engine's size, shape, and airflow requirements differ from conventional engines and will require airframe modifications not normally expected. Ace’s demand for airflow, changes significantly across modes and will require inlet and exhaust matching adjustments not found in conventional engines. A plane flying with them has to be adjusted to accommodate it all, seamlessly.

Taking all this in to consideration, rather than half flying a plane with an ACE, RR is going along with a safer route of a turbofan that is few steps ahead of it’s competitors as turbofans go. Especially the timeline they they have set for themselves it is the logical route.

Tempest will have special composite structural surfaces that will rely on dynamic stealth rather than coating. It will rely on heavy and powerful EW for stealth as well as its shape without detracting from agility and manoeuvrability. According to a BAE official it will be the first UK jet fighter that could fly transatlantic without needing refuelling. It should be able to carry up to 10000lb of munitions.

Here is an interesting article on 6th gen jets

What makes a fighter jet 'sixth gen' and why it matters

Sixth-gen fighters are being built for the wars of the future, wars that will rely more on stealth, sensors, and long-range weapons.

interestingengineering.com

 

[Spitfire9]

The France/Germany/Spain FCAS programme is reported to be suffering from problems regarding French/German co-operation. If it does not go ahead, might Spain be able to contribute usefully to KAAN (I don't just mean funding) and vice versa? Could there be some kind of synergy? I recall that Spain worked on developing a vectored thrust system for the EJ200 engine for Eurofighter.

 

[Lool]

The France/Germany/Spain FCAS programme is reported to be suffering from problems regarding French/German co-operation. If it does not go ahead, might Spain be able to contribute usefully to KAAN (I don't just mean funding) and vice versa? Could there be some kind of synergy? I recall that Spain worked on developing a vectored thrust system for the EJ200 engine for Eurofighter.

The problem is entirely with France; they see themselves as the kings of Europe and the only ones capable of leading the EU into glory
They want to take all of the critical work and just leave the mediocre work/crumbs to the Germans

For the Germans, it isnt fair as this is supposed to be co-production. However, from the French standpoint, France is the only one with the tech to produce critical areas like engines etc... and this makes them feel more entitled to a greater workshare. Finally, historically, the French and Germans dont like each other very much and they always feel that they are superior to the other side

 

[mehmed beg]

I think that problem is entirely with Germany, not France. Germans got rid of about 30 nuclear reactors, with that they stunted the development of French nuclear technology.
It is Germans who act too clever. France keep the fleet of nuclear submarines and aircraft carrier, which costs France a lot. With that, Germans can sell a log of Boxers and IRSTs? German produces the parts and assemble a lot of USA and Israeli technologies with that Germans want to be boss because they have more money then French . Also, Germans produce a lot of space products in Germany, based on French technology.
They are acting with the goal to undermine France. France is completely right Vis a Vis its stand towards the Germans.
France is right in its position. It is not fair nor visible, that every single product of EU have critical designs and components from somewhere else. It is not feasible that, so many people determine the specifications of the future products.
So many various assembly lines etc. Someone sells a few IVF and is required to set up assembly line in given country?
This panic buying of the weapons, seemingly has the purpose to get some jobs in Europe, make people feel safe .
Oh I almost forgot. Poland arms itself with American, Korean a bit Israeli weapons. Getting American nuclear reactors, thousands work in France and getting grants, which France partially pays, then want a share in that military base that they build somewhere in Estonia.
France is absolutely right.

 

[Merzifonlu]

It is a generation ahead if what it can not be retrofitted to the previous version.

Structurally, it sports a tailless design and a highly stealthy airframe, features that weren’t possible in earlier generations. Beyond that, there’s nothing the 6th generation offers that the 5th couldn’t, including variable-cycle engines. Another big plus of tailless design is the altitude edge. With the fuselage made almost entirely from a single-piece delta wing, it produces tremendous lift.