China South-China-Sea

Gary

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The problem is that China also wants non-Chinese ones.
Other than Taiwan or maybe Vladivostok, at least for now China doesn't have the appetite to go for other territories.

I don't count sand dunes in the SCS as territories, rather some silly land grab by all parties.

But it's good to know China's outward ambition finally meet some checks in the form of the US and its allies.
 
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Jagdflieger

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.....or maybe Vladivostok, at least for now China doesn't have the appetite to go for other territories.
Vladivostok is of no economic value to China - and furthermore is belongs to the territory of a highly appreciated ally.
It's like forwarding that he USA want's to take Vancouver.
I don't count sand dunes in the SCS as territories, rather some silly land grab by all parties.
Neither do I - and yes everyone is involved in this land-grab.
But it's good to know China's outward ambition finally meet some checks in the form of the US and its allies.
To keep other's ambition's in check is always a wise thing to do, but to instigate towards another country - especially in it's internal politics and propagate falsehood is another thing all together.
 

Gary

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Vladivostok is of no economic value to China - and furthermore is belongs to the territory of a highly appreciated ally.
It's like forwarding that he USA want's to take Vancouver.
There's actually a Chinese academics that propose the restoration of greater China encompassing all lost territories before. And that includes Vladivostok. I'll post it here once I'm able to find that particular post again.
Neither do I - and yes everyone is involved in this land-grab.
Except us. Natuna isn't a sand dune. Yet, we find ourselves dragged into the conflict.
To keep other's ambition's in check is always a wise thing to do, but to instigate towards another country - especially in it's internal politics and propagate falsehood is another thing all together.

Countries do instigate each other especially in internal politics. Nothing new or weird. That includes China.
 

xizhimen

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There's actually a Chinese academics that propose the restoration of greater China encompassing all lost territories before. And that includes Vladivostok. I'll post it here once I'm able to find that particular post again.
Every country has their fair share of a handful of crazy "scholars", they don't represent the general public sentiment, China and Russia now are at the best time of their friendship and the public also love each other shown by various polls.

20200824_15983236644925.jpg
 
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Jagdflieger

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There's actually a Chinese academics that propose the restoration of greater China encompassing all lost territories before. And that includes Vladivostok. I'll post it here once I'm able to find that particular post again.
I am sure that there are even more then just one of those people - but they do not represent Beijing.
One of my Chinese friends is constantly forwarding - wack Taiwan, wack Vietnam, wack Philippines, etc. etc. - hilarious discussions actually :)
Except us. Natuna isn't a sand dune. Yet, we find ourselves dragged into the conflict.
Indonesia forwarding that they first heard of the 9-dash line in 1993 - IMO doesn't work. It was known since the 1920's aka the 11 dash line declared by the ROC and wasn't objected by anyone - including the Dutch before Indonesia's independence. When Mao agreed to cease the Tonking area to Vietnam in 1968? it was then referred to as the 9 dash line (also by Taiwan) - also internationally never objected to.
It was only from 2003 onward due to disputes between China and Vietnam that this issue gained global attention. Resulting into the Philippine protest towards the international court. (the ruling being objected to by China and Taiwan). And IIRC also by Malaysia and Brunei in regards to their claims towards the Philippines.

The UN regulations governing the EEZ do not specify the issue regarding naval assets.
One party e.g. China/Taiwan/ Malaysia, Vietnam and Indonesia regard an EEZ to be governed under the same laws as national territory
Another party led by the USA - demands free passage including that of naval assets.

Since the PRC claims the Spratly Islands - it's EEZ overlaps with that of Indonesia( Natuna) on a small North-Eastern part. As such IMO China and Indonesia need to negotiate a solution benefiting both sides equally. Simply ignoring China's Spratly EEZ won't help Indonesia's interests.

In all disputes - China in a first step always offered a deal in regard to "joint explorations" being very well aware that all other claimant states do not posses the economic means to exploit those natural resources anyway - from Fish to Oil and Gas.

Off course any claimant state is free to object towards such "joint exploration" proposals. But the harsh reality in our world is that the "stronger" party will keep on pushing it's interest by whatever means.

Looking upon Indonesia's huge archipelago with untapped huge natural resources all around - wouldn't it far better serve Indonesia's interests to acknowledge e.g. China's EEZ aka 9 dash line - find a compromise for Natuna, and get into joint explorations throughout Indonesia's vast EEZ's? - just saying. ;)


AlphaMike: Countries do instigate each other especially in internal politics. Nothing new or weird. That includes China.

Would you have an appropriate example? e.g. I do not see e.g. a Confucius Institute in the USA, Australia or Indonesia instigating and financing riots on Hawaii or Perth which behold a large Asian population or e.g. in Palembang/Aceh or whatever Indonesian ethnic group that lies in opposition to Jakarta. That the Confucius Institutes do promote Chinese politics and culture is certainly true. But violence like in HK ??? or provoking/inciting (lastly financing) independence movements in other countries??
E.g. China financing political unrest in Malaysia ($ wise peanuts for China) - pointing out Bumi law, that subject's non Malay-Muslim's to secondary citizens?
Thus wreaking havoc onto S.E.A. countries. ?!

But that is exactly as to what the USA has been doing all along - especially in the past 70 years.
 

Gary

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I am sure that there are even more then just one of those people - but they do not represent Beijing.
One of my Chinese friends is constantly forwarding - wack Taiwan, wack Vietnam, wack Philippines, etc. etc. - hilarious discussions actually :)
True, but popular opinion --even in a traditionally non Democratic country-- could steer the geopolitical course and ambitions of one's country. Especially when nationalism is at an all time high in CN.


Indonesia forwarding that they first heard of the 9-dash line in 1993 - IMO doesn't work. It was known since the 1920's aka the 11 dash line declared by the ROC and wasn't objected by anyone - including the Dutch before Indonesia's independence. When Mao agreed to cease the Tonking area to Vietnam in 1968? it was then referred to as the 9 dash line (also by Taiwan) - also internationally never objected to.
It was only from 2003 onward due to disputes between China and Vietnam that this issue gained global attention. Resulting into the Philippine protest towards the international court. (the ruling being objected to by China and Taiwan). And IIRC also by Malaysia and Brunei in regards to their claims towards the Philippines.

The UN regulations governing the EEZ do not specify the issue regarding naval assets.
One party e.g. China/Taiwan/ Malaysia, Vietnam and Indonesia regard an EEZ to be governed under the same laws as national territory
Another party led by the USA - demands free passage including that of naval assets.

Since the PRC claims the Spratly Islands - it's EEZ overlaps with that of Indonesia( Natuna) on a small North-Eastern part. As such IMO China and Indonesia need to negotiate a solution benefiting both sides equally. Simply ignoring China's Spratly EEZ won't help Indonesia's interests.

I am very much aware of this, but do know China (PR) is the now capable shaping the code of conduct in the South China Sea by its whim. The status quo that had been maintained for almost a century is now broken and its in the best interests of these 'claimants' to adjust their foreign policy.
Countries differ in their approach, but overall distrust with China is at an all time high, that is something that Beijing seemingly unable to steer.
In regards to EEZ, Chinese vessel does have the right to passes, but increasingly their presence there are to exercise Chinese fishermen exploitation in other's people EEZ.
In all disputes - China in a first step always offered a deal in regard to "joint explorations" being very well aware that all other claimant states do not posses the economic means to exploit those natural resources anyway - from Fish to Oil and Gas.

Off course any claimant state is free to object towards such "joint exploration" proposals. But the harsh reality in our world is that the "stronger" party will keep on pushing it's interest by whatever means.
Again. as I've mentioned while the escalation dominance lies with China, Beijing would not be able to steer the claimants to accept those claims, hence we will see continuous Vietnamese fishing fleet operating even as close to Hainan, Indonesian oil rig and exploration vessels in the Natuna's, Philippine patrol in the Spratly etc.

China will eventually escalate this, and while the SE Asians are not capable of mounting serious challenge, naturally they will turn towards the other Superpowe, the US.

In a grand scheme of thing, whilst pursuing a winning geopolitical ambitions in South East Asia, Beijing risks an opening to strengthened US presence in almost ALL of Asia (excluding NK, Cambodia off course).

Looking upon Indonesia's huge archipelago with untapped huge natural resources all around - wouldn't it far better serve Indonesia's interests to acknowledge e.g. China's EEZ aka 9 dash line - find a compromise for Natuna, and get into joint explorations throughout Indonesia's vast EEZ's? - just saying. ;)
I see nothing wrong with this, --if we were to live in lala land where everything could be solved gleefully--. The things is local politics WILL be detrimental in torpedoing many of these kinds of deals. Compromise with China will be seen as weak, and will be used in elections by politicians to increase bad sentiment.

and then there's the problem of external powers, I'm gonna be frank here. If Indonesia were to make long lasting peace with China after such deal, who do you think will be embittered ? How about the Australians or Americans ?

Have you study the influence and personal relationship that our commanders have with the west ? Soekarno once tried to build a Jakarta-Pyongyang-Peking axis. What happened next ?

AlphaMike: Countries do instigate each other especially in internal politics. Nothing new or weird. That includes China.

Would you have an appropriate example? e.g. I do not see e.g. a Confucius Institute in the USA, Australia or Indonesia instigating and financing riots on Hawaii or Perth which behold a large Asian population or e.g. in Palembang/Aceh or whatever Indonesian ethnic group that lies in opposition to Jakarta. That the Confucius Institutes do promote Chinese politics and culture is certainly true. But violence like in HK ??? or provoking/inciting (lastly financing) independence movements in other countries??
E.g. China financing political unrest in Malaysia ($ wise peanuts for China) - pointing out Bumi law, that subject's non Malay-Muslim's to secondary citizens?
Thus wreaking havoc onto S.E.A. countries. ?!

But that is exactly as to what the USA has been doing all along - especially in the past 70 years.

China is a relatively new player in this arena, and yes confucius institute are known to build positive image for somewhat controversial CCP actions (Falun gong and Uyghur persecutions etc).

China as lately as the 2000s are per-occupied with internal security. Hence its security apparatus are inward looking rather outward driven, China's increasing prestige, role and power in the international arena WILL necessitate such kind of political instigation.

And political instigations doesn't have to be violent. I have seen an increase in popular Indonesian Youtube channel and social media influencers praising China's development today. Am I to rule out that these people work without foreign backing ???? I think not.
 

Jagdflieger

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True, but popular opinion --even in a traditionally non Democratic country-- could steer the geopolitical course and ambitions of one's country. Especially when nationalism is at an all time high in CN.




I am very much aware of this, but do know China (PR) is the now capable shaping the code of conduct in the South China Sea by its whim. The status quo that had been maintained for almost a century is now broken and its in the best interests of these 'claimants' to adjust their foreign policy.
Countries differ in their approach, but overall distrust with China is at an all time high, that is something that Beijing seemingly unable to steer.
In regards to EEZ, Chinese vessel does have the right to passes, but increasingly their presence there are to exercise Chinese fishermen exploitation in other's people EEZ.

Again. as I've mentioned while the escalation dominance lies with China, Beijing would not be able to steer the claimants to accept those claims, hence we will see continuous Vietnamese fishing fleet operating even as close to Hainan, Indonesian oil rig and exploration vessels in the Natuna's, Philippine patrol in the Spratly etc.

China will eventually escalate this, and while the SE Asians are not capable of mounting serious challenge, naturally they will turn towards the other Superpowe, the US.

In a grand scheme of thing, whilst pursuing a winning geopolitical ambitions in South East Asia, Beijing risks an opening to strengthened US presence in almost ALL of Asia (excluding NK, Cambodia off course).


I see nothing wrong with this, --if we were to live in lala land where everything could be solved gleefully--. The things is local politics WILL be detrimental in torpedoing many of these kinds of deals. Compromise with China will be seen as weak, and will be used in elections by politicians to increase bad sentiment.

and then there's the problem of external powers, I'm gonna be frank here. If Indonesia were to make long lasting peace with China after such deal, who do you think will be embittered ? How about the Australians or Americans ?

Have you study the influence and personal relationship that our commanders have with the west ? Soekarno once tried to build a Jakarta-Pyongyang-Peking axis. What happened next ?



China is a relatively new player in this arena, and yes confucius institute are known to build positive image for somewhat controversial CCP actions (Falun gong and Uyghur persecutions etc).

China as lately as the 2000s are per-occupied with internal security. Hence its security apparatus are inward looking rather outward driven, China's increasing prestige, role and power in the international arena WILL necessitate such kind of political instigation.

And political instigations doesn't have to be violent. I have seen an increase in popular Indonesian Youtube channel and social media influencers praising China's development today. Am I to rule out that these people work without foreign backing ???? I think not.
i agree more or less to your statements.

However let's keep in mind that nationalism (e.g. boycotting Japanese or Korean businesses) is still a huge step away from convincing a society towards war.
Especially the Chinese society that is way more interested in making $ and go online-shopping then in getting into a war.

E.g. there was totally no effort by Beijing to boycott US goods or brand-names - Dumb Trump managed to do that all by himself.

The real issue IMO is however with which side do the S.E.A. countries stand? - with China or the USA?
As long as no S.E.A. country states a clear commitment (neutrality is just wishful thinking) China will automatically regard them as being rather pro USA or USA controlled.

In which case Beijing will swap diplomatic efforts, eventually to military action if deemed necessary.

That is my "simple" take on this entire situation. :)
 

Gary

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The real issue IMO is however with which side do the S.E.A. countries stand? - with China or the USA?
As long as no S.E.A. country states a clear commitment (neutrality is just wishful thinking) China will automatically regard them as being rather pro USA or USA controlled.

In which case Beijing will swap diplomatic efforts, eventually to military action if deemed necessary.

That is my "simple" take on this entire situation. :)

Even if Beijing resorted to such, the overall impact will be limited. In all seriousness what Beijing could realistically achieve is a 21st century version of a medieval raid. China could send punitive expedition, bombing select or all SE Asian country in an air campaign with the goal of subduing/muting local rulers. But unless Beijing able to sit their 'men' in Jakarta or whatever ASEAN capitals, they lose. And when I mean sit, I don't mean one puppet personalities, I'm talking the PLA literally occupying the capitals and whatever cities used as power making decision.

Because while such campaign will be painful for the targeted countries, history has pointed out many states that got raided (such as the norm in the medieval times) were able to stand back, rebuilt and in some cases hit back.

China just simply doesn't have the resource and capacity to fully occupy a country of 270+ million (Indonesia) or 681 million (ASEAN). And because full occupation is ruled out, there's a chance that this countries targeted will eventually come up with radical solutions with their defense. Think Japan after Commodore Perry expedition and its impact on Japan.

If before such hypothetical China's military expedition, the ASEAN states are equipped with Potemkin armies (excluding Singapore), there's a real chance that China could spark up deep military reforms in all ASEAN regardless if one or all ASEAN states are to be targeted. And that's a big trouble for China's ambition in the long run, because while China is powerful, power itself are relative. The stronger ASEAN gets the weaker China gets in relative terms. And ASEAN is just one vector of danger, there's also Japan+USA+SoKor alliance looming in the East and Taiwan not yet be able to be solved both diplomatically and militarily.

That's why I've been saying the Galwan clash of 2020 are a huge strategic mistake for the Chinese, because while they're able to win the event, the far reaching reaching consequence makes them the ultimate loser. Washington tries to get India side with them since ages and gets a no everytime, now that CCP and the PLA themselves are doing the bidding for them, I'm sure Washington is pleased.

Even a defeat for Indonesia will be good, at least the defense or therefore lack off of Indonesia is now laid bare for everyone to see, For a very long time the TNI is designed for police duty not real peer warfare fighting forces. Maybe a defeat would change such stance.

I myself has no problem if Indoensia is to be defeated or humiliated is China decide to mount such (military) option, the pros will likely outweigh the cons.

Capturebb.PNG
 

Jagdflieger

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Now you are into a total war fiction - it will never happen, not from the Chinese side.

E.g. if the fish and gas/oil is so important for them, they will simply occupy Natuna and enjoy exploiting the natural resources in their newly added EEZ of Natuna.
Indonesia simply doesn't have the ability to take back that Island or Island group - nor does any S.E.A. state or an alliance posses the economic means to come up with a threatening military force towards China. And the USA is not going to get into a war with China because of e.g. Natuna.

But even before such an escalation takes place - if China wanted to, they simply send a couple of naval ships to harass any Indonesian fishing boat/ship and it's navy whilst Chinese fishing fleets will be operating in the Natuna EEZ.

India and China have a strange heritage with each other that goes back to British colonial times. They might have some border issues that again can be solved diplomatically. India is smart and independent enough not to become a USA stooge - but if they can benefit from an advantage given by the USA - why not, and China is off course aware about that. The real threat to India's security is from Pakistan and from within their own country, Not from China.

So again - diplomatically resolve these issues - to both sides economic advantage. ;)

Maybe we take a rest in our discussion before things get too emotional? :)
 

xizhimen

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South China Sea is in status quo as always, China doesn't mean to disrupt it, it's the US trying to stir up trouble in that region and falsely claiming that China is trying to change the status quo, divide and conquer, same old trick that western colonialists have used for centuries on Asian nations.
 

Jagdflieger

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South China Sea is in status quo as always, China doesn't mean to disrupt it, it's the US trying to stir up trouble in that region and falsely claiming that China is trying to change the status quo, divide and conquer, same old trick that western colonialists have used for centuries on Asian nations.
No sorry, I don't agree. China has repeatedly bullied it's way into the EEZ's of it's neighbors. Justifying it with it's 9-dash line.
And because of this - the USA find's it easy to portrait China as an aggressor. That the USA is also hindering diplomatic efforts between China and the other claimants to resolve that issue is certainly true - but China would be wise not to fall into that obvious trap - diplomacy takes time (and that is actually China's own political principle).

You don't make friends or garner sympathy in Manila by e.g. making or demonstrating that the Philippine navy is a joke.
 

xizhimen

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If China was the agressor, how can she tolerate this reality in SCS? China has the capabilities to kick them out, but she chose not to. the map shows that most isles near Malaysia and Indonesia are in Vietnamese hands, but the west is hell bent ot portray China as a sole aggressor who only holds a couple of isles there.

Spratly_with_flags.jpg
 
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Jagdflieger

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There is no need for a war or direct military actions in order to be termed as an agressor.
Intruding into another countries EEZ with fishing fleets or survey vessels - actively exploring, and being (accompanied by CN Navy and Coast Guard ships) is an aggressive behavior. The respective EEZ's and national territories are internationally recognized - independent of China refuting the Philippines International court ruling.

The building of artificial islands do not constitute according to international law the basis to declare a national territory and forming an EEZ onto that basis. But they serve as a military installation build by China in disputed waters. - constituting clearly a military inspired move and enabling China to shift the power of balance. And please keep in mind that China is a signatory to UNCLOS unlike the busy body USA.
As such despite the 9-dash line claim being ignored/factually refuted by UNCLOS - China yet decided to become a signatory.!!!

If e.g. Vietnam violates e.g. Malaysian territory or it's EEZ - well then China IMO is free to point out aggressive behavior by e.g. Vietnam.
But it would be kind of questionable to point out others aggressive behavior whist doing the same.

Iceland - UK fisheries war: aka the (Cod War)

Upon Iceland being recognized as an sovereign country they setup their own rightful EEZ. Before the UK's fishing fleet was happily fishing there and it was a backbone to the UK industry. After several "collisions" between UK and Icelandic coast-guard and naval assets - right down to physical action between the respective trawler crews the UK was rightfully accused of being the aggressor. And eventually the situation was handled via a treaty between these two states. Even causing the decline of the British fisheries industry.

So get all these knuckleheads together to find an overall agreement - (within a specified Time-limit) If still no agreement can be reached - usually economic and military power will decide the outcome. Undoubtedly IMO, China will decide this in their favor - but then China can't complain about being termed an aggressor in that matter. Simply because the 9-dash line is not part of the UNCLOS statutory.
 

Viva_vietnamm

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If China was the agressor, how can she tolerate this reality in SCS? China has the capabilities to kick them out, but she chose not to. the map shows that most isles near Malaysia and Indonesia are in Vietnamese hands, but the west is hell bent ot portray China as a sole aggressor who only holds a couple of isles there.

View attachment 45153
CN is the agressor, but your army is coward and usless without help from daddy US-JP like in 1979. The only tactic CN generals know is just human wave attack, thats why CN can;t take bigger parts in SCS where 70% of CN's merchant ships must pass throught
:cool:

CN POW quickly surrender in 1979 even when they didn't fire a single shoot :ROFLMAO:

cuoc-chien-bien-gioi-1979-nam-trong-chien-luoc-10-nam-cua-trung-quoc.jpg


mapcrudebig.png
 

Viva_vietnamm

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So get all these knuckleheads together to find an overall agreement - (within a specified Time-limit) If still no agreement can be reached - usually economic and military power will decide the outcome. Undoubtedly IMO, China will decide this in their favor - but then China can't complain about being termed an aggressor in that matter. Simply because the 9-dash line is not part of the UNCLOS statutory.
Are you Chinese or German ?? Cos most of Chinese keep trying to believe SCS (east VN sea) belong to them since ancient time, even when Qing dynasty said Hannan island is the End of China border.

Qing map showed no 9 dash line when all Mongol's land was included.


Hinh-anh-Viet-Nam-6.jpg
 

xizhimen

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CN POW quickly surrender in 1979 even when they didn't fire a single shoot :ROFLMAO:
Trolling might be fun for you, but it stands pale in front of real facts and figures

"The Chinese held 1,636 Vietnamese prisoners and the Vietnamese held 238 Chinese prisoners; they were exchanged in May–June 1979."

If you guys were really that great, that war would be fought in Chinese soil, not Vietnamese'.
 

xizhimen

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Trolling ?? Viet soliders fired to the last shoot before surrender while CN POW surrender Before the battle start, dude. :LOL:

------------------------------

The story of 104 Chinese soldiers surrendering at the Cao Bang front
February 17, 2020

In the early morning of February 17, 1979, China sent more than half a million troops and thousands of tanks and motorized vehicles over the Vietnamese border, simultaneously attacking six northern provinces from Pa Nam Cum (Lai Chau) to Po Hen. (Quang Ninh) on a length of 1,200 km border.

The northern border war broke out while the main Vietnamese legions were fighting the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Along our border, there are only main forces of military zones, local troops and guerrillas.

The total defense force of Vietnam in the northern border provinces is less than 60,000 troops. While China is estimated to have 600,000 troops with 9 main corps and 32 independent infantry divisions, 6 tank regiments, 4 divisions, artillery and anti-aircraft regiments and hundreds of heavy artillery, thousands mortars and rocket launchers.

Although the wounds after more than 20 years of war have not yet healed, our army and people still entered the fight against the invaders with strong will, courage and burning desire for Independence - Freedom, expressing I love my country with my heart and blood. Destroy and eliminate from the battle tens of thousands of invaders, causing them a lot of damage and forcing China to withdraw its troops.


During this war, we took many prisoners alive, including an entire Chinese mountain company that voluntarily surrendered to our troops, without spending a single bullet. There was even a brief report that this company agreed to surrender according to the cell's resolution. This is a rare story in the history of world war.

This mountain company belongs to the 448th Infantry Regiment, 150th Division, 50th Army Corps, Chengdu Military Region. The unit also has a full set of staff: Company Captain Ly Hoa Binh, politician Phung Tang Man, Party Committee, platoon leaders ... and fully equipped. Accompanying the company were two officers sent by the regiment to direct the battle, one was the deputy chief of staff of the regiment Pho Boi Duc, the other was the deputy political commissar of the regiment Long Duc Xuong. The whole company was full of 104 men.

According to the testimonies of the soldiers: The mountain company planned to penetrate deep into our land, but because of the old map, they did not know anything about the terrain and terrain of Vietnam, and even the battlefield in the mountains and forests to the west. North that they were fighting, then invisibly they became a bunch of "lost children". When coming to Minh Tam (Nguyen Binh - Cao Bang), the company stopped on a rocky hill, suddenly discovered the difference between the map they used and the field. Looking around, there were Vietnamese troops everywhere, the company command knew that fighting to open the way back was hopeless while the food was gone and the water source was not available. Therefore, the company cell's branch committee held an urgent meeting with a proper resolution. And to come to that decision to surrender, they had to have a "party" meeting that took half a day to come up with a resolution...

In the Resolution to issue goods, it is clearly stated:

“Follow the teachings of leader Lenin, which is: Do concrete work – in specific stages. So now the resolution is to surrender, to preserve our forces, to return to the Fatherland."

The surrender of Chinese soldiers in this war is real. But are there specific circumstances such as the testimony of the soldiers?

Many sources reported that the siege of this company was inconsistent. There was an article that was the Self-Defense Battalion of Thai Nguyen Iron and Steel, and the newspaper cited sources saying the Tinh Tuc Tin Mine Self-Defense Force and Minh Tam Commune's militia. There are newspapers stating that it is a Vietnamese military unit. In some photos taken by the company of soldiers, there are images of female militiamen holding guns. So which unit directly captured that company? And what time do we start? Does the company of mountain soldiers surrender their guns "voluntarily"?

For many reasons, at that time the press did not approach to have detailed articles. Over the last few years, I've been trying to reach out to some units and veterans to find out what's going on. After the war, the military units merged and the war retreated, insiders left the army, or moved back to live in the countryside, finding witnesses to get answers seemed impossible. .

Fortunately, I met veterans who were cadres and soldiers of the Military Command of Bac Thai Province (now the Military Command of Thai Nguyen Province) in 1979 and learned that the unit was fighting in Vietnam. Nguyen Binh - Cao Bang and directly involved in capturing the infantry company was the North Thai 4th Battalion. Also through the veterans, I was introduced and had the opportunity to talk with Mr. Pham Minh Hung, a veteran of the 4th Battalion North Thai, now living in Cu Van commune, Dai Tu district, Thai Nguyen province.

Memories of a time when he wore the old battle shirt with youthful enthusiasm as if to make him younger. He showed me his record of those years through his generous and exhilarating verses. He said:

– I am a soldier of 3rd Battalion, 1st Platoon, 2nd Company – 4th Battalion of Northern Thai and was assigned to use B41 gun. As soon as the Chinese army opened fire to invade our country, our North Thai 4th Battalion received orders to set out to strengthen the border fire line.

On February 19, we occupied our position at Ta Sa, Ban Ho, Minh Thanh commune, Nguyen Binh district. After scouting the enemy situation, the battalion organized an attack on enemy forces stationed in Ban Ho village, Na Luoc hamlet.

On March 8, the battalion consisting of the re-enlisted soldiers of the iron and steel area marched to Nguyen Binh to meet the enemy at Na Pao fork, the battles took place fiercely, many officers and soldiers of this battalion died.

On March 10, we intercepted and fought the enemy at the cattle ranch area of Cao Bang province, the struggle took place all day. My company was reinforced with 12mm7 guns, 82 mortars fired directly at the enemy formation. Detecting our firepower, the enemy used DKZ and H12 rockets to counterattack madly.

On the night of March 12, the enemy attacked to open a bloodline to flee, they attached to the wire communication line to attack the infantry battalion, causing a number of officers and soldiers to die...

Hearing me mention the incident of capturing a company of Chinese mountain soldiers, Pham Minh Hung pondered:

– Our battalion and the new battalion from iron and steel and local militia deployed the plan of cooperation, determined not to let the enemy commit crimes. Discovered a group of Chinese soldiers holding a mountain, due to the steep terrain of cat's ears, the scouts could not reach the target, so the number was estimated at about one platoon. Attacking this mountain is very difficult and can result in heavy casualties. The North Thai 4th Battalion command board arranged a tight encirclement and tried to destroy it. Comrade North, a political officer of the C23 artillery company, a former Chinese teacher, was assigned to hold a loudspeaker to call on the enemy to surrender. At this time, the North Thai 5th Battalion to reinforce the front also marched in.

On the afternoon of March 14, a Chinese soldier held a white flag down the mountain. The soldier said that his company had about 100 people on the mountain, and asked to surrender. Suggest we let people negotiate. The battalion command did not accept negotiations and allowed the surrender on condition that all weapons were left on the spot, no mines were planted, white flags were carried, and their hands were raised in the air, walking in a line down the mountain.

Platoon 1, belonging to our 2nd company, commanded by comrade Dao Ngoc Khoa, platoon leader, was assigned to capture prisoners (At that time on the battlefield the soldiers called them remnants). Two scout soldiers escorted the soldier to the mountain to contact his accomplices. We are in a ready-to-battle position in case they turn around. After a while, all the soldiers came out, 104 in all.

It was very difficult for us to reach the top of the mountain because of the jagged cliffs, it was impossible to imagine how they got there. From here, the enemy could observe the entire terrain of the area, they certainly saw clearly that our army and people deployed a battle formation, in which there were quite a few soldiers from the North Thai 5th Battalion that had just gathered. At the place where they hid their troops, weapons and personal belongings were scattered everywhere. No one knows if they are really lost or too scared. If participating in the war, this company has no chance to return. Around 5 p.m. the entire company of Chinese soldiers was captured alive.

I guess you know that every country has plenty of these "heronic stories" to tell their public, but facts and figures will talk a different story, we exchanged POWs after the war, those numbers were registered by both government and can not be faked.

"The Chinese held 1,636 Vietnamese prisoners and the Vietnamese held 238 Chinese prisoners; they were exchanged in May–June 1979."
 

Viva_vietnamm

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I guess you know that every country has plenty of these "heronic stories" to tell their public, but facts and figures will talk a different story, we exchanged POWs after the war, those numbers were registered by both government and can not be faked.
I just explain why an agressor like CN still control a much smaller parts in SCS(east VN sea) than VN's one. Bcs you guys are coward, willing to surrender when seeing no help from daddy JP-US like from 1979 till Soviet collapsed .

U don't wanna hear, but u can change the truth that If VN cover the SCS(east VN sea) with sea mines, then CN's economy will collapse within few months when running out of oil and raw material . :p
 

xizhimen

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I just explain why an agressor like CN still control a much smaller parts in SCS(east VN sea) than VN's one.
Because China is not an aggressor as the west tries to portray, China only fought a couple of sea battles with Vietnam in 1974 and 1988, no more, and we all know the results.
 

xizhimen

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Whatever, keep living on your useless-barren lands with sand storm every years plus 1 meter snow in winter, people don't wanna see CNese in SCS(east VN sea). :cool:
I know Vietnam and Chinese Guangdong and Guangxi provinces used to be one country over 1000 years ago before the later two joined China, now Guangdong and Guangxi are very developed and people are very wealthy, Guangdong Great Bay region has many world renowned metroplis like Hong kong, Macao, Shenzhen, Zhuhai, Guangzhou... hopefully their brothers in the south can one day also reach their level of standard of living. cheers.

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