Turkey’s Overlooked Role in the Second Nagorno-Karabakh War

what

Experienced member
Moderator
Messages
2,172
Reactions
10 6,421
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
Talks about the most significant contribution of Turkey in the second NK war, which was army building and an 30 year effort. It's worth reading.

shutterstock_1823024303.jpg


Turkey’s Overlooked Role in the Second Nagorno-Karabakh War​


Haldun Yalçınkaya


The Second Nagorno-Karabakh War between Armenia and Azerbaijan ended on November 10, 2020 with the former acknowledging defeat. Various factors explain Azerbaijan’s military victory, with two considered by observers as “magic bullets”: the role of unmanned aerial vehicles sourced from Turkey and Israel, and the advisory role of Turkish senior military personnel in Azerbaijan’s operational plans and command. But, while exceedingly important, these factors do not sufficiently explain the outcome of the conflict. There is an additional significant factor. Soon after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Turkey began building Azerbaijan’s armed forces, along with those several other former Soviet republics. Azerbaijan’s recent victory against Armenia was the result of this thirty-year effort.

The Necessity of a Well-built Army​

During the Second Nagorno-Karabakh War, Azerbaijan’s armament program and Turkey’s contribution to it were widely discussed. While its defense industry is a significant supplier to Azerbaijan’s armed forces, Turkey is far from being the largest one. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, Russia is Azerbaijan’s top defense supplier followed by Israel, Ukraine, Belarus, and, only then, Turkey.

Moreover, superior weapons and equipment alone do not win wars. One can argue that human capital and organizational capacity are equally, if not more, important. Carl von Clausewitz’s seminal book, On War, presents two issues, friction and the fog of war, that necessitate, for the sake of military victory, highly trained personnel and a perfectly harmonized command structure. After a military operation begins, it inevitably changes due to an infinite number of factors, no matter how perfectly it has been planned. In fact, operational plans are destined to fall short. Clausewitz described these factors as “friction” and the environment of such uncertainty as the “fog of war.” According to him, the party with the greater capacity for eliminating these factors gains advantage in a war. This requires advanced human capital and organizational capacity, both of which are the result of meticulous training.

History is full of examples of better-trained and/or better-commanded armies defeating ones that were better equipped. More recently, oil-rich countries that import the most advanced weapon systems have not demonstrated any significant success in military conflict. That is to say, even if an army is well-equipped a lack of highly trained and precisely commanded troops could prevent it to reach its goals during a conflict.

Turkey’s Army Building in Azerbaijan​

Turkey’s most significant contribution to Azerbaijan’s victory in the Second Nagorno-Karabakh War was neither the drones it supplied nor the military advisors it allegedly provided, but three decades of meticulous army building.

These efforts started at the end of the Cold War. After Azerbaijan became independent in 1992, it had two options: it could build an army based either on the legacy of the Red Army or on Western standards. It chose the latter, not least because of Turkey’s offer to help. Sharing a language, though with different dialects, the two countries had a record of military cooperation going back to the 1917 Russian Revolution. In 1918, the Ottoman military assisted Azerbaijan’s independence efforts. After the collapse of the Soviet Union and Azerbaijan’s independence, “two states, one nation” became a motto for a close relationship between the two countries. At the same time, Azerbaijan’s relationship with NATO also formed the basis for Turkey’s military assistance and army-building process.

The first agreement on military training cooperation between Azerbaijan and Turkey was signed in 1992. Ratified in the Turkish Parliament the following year, it was implemented vigorously. Within the framework of this agreement, cadets, young officers, and mid-level command staff of Azerbaijan’s armed forces would receive an education at the Turkish Military Academy, the Turkish War Academy, the Gülhane Military Medical Academy, and the non-commissioned officer schools. The army-building process started with training and education in Turkey, and later moved to Azerbaijan. Turkey also contributed to the founding and reorganization of military education and training institutions in Azerbaijan.

This collaboration reached its highest point with the Agreement on Strategic Partnership and Mutual Support of 2010. From that point on, Azerbaijani military personnel participated in Turkish military exercises and conducted military visits to Turkey, and vice versa.

As a result of this uninterrupted education and training process, the Azerbaijani military developed a strong human-resource capacity as well as effective command skills. Over the course of three decades, the traditions of strict discipline and obedience in the Turkish armed forces overtook the former Soviet influence on the Azerbaijani army, with the education and training process led by the Turkish land forces replicated by the navy and air force as well.

Turkey’s army-building process in Azerbaijan was in line with NATO policies toward partner countries. After the end of the Cold War, NATO established partnership tools and mechanisms including capability building, interoperability, and transformation through education, training, and exercises. Azerbaijan began its relationship with NATO in 1992 by becoming a member of the North Atlantic Cooperation Council. Later, it joined the Partnership for Peace Program and developed an Individual Partnership Action Plan with NATO. Azerbaijan’s participation in NATO’s operation in Kosovo under Turkish military command at the end of the 1990s was an important turning point for its partnership with NATO. The second one was Azerbaijan’s participation in the International Security and Assistance Force in Afghanistan under the command of the Turkish armed forces.

Azerbaijan’s participation in NATO operations has shown that a military from the former Soviet Union can achieve the alliance’s standards through an army-building process led by Turkey. The transformation of the Azerbaijan armed forces is just one example. Since the end of Cold War, Turkey has provided military and non-military assistance to more than thirty states in the Balkans, the Caucasus, the Middle East, and Africa as part of bilateral or multilateral arrangements. It co-founded and continues to advise military academies in Afghanistan, Georgia, and Somalia, in addition to Azerbaijan. It is also in close military cooperation with Ukraine and Georgia, which are other littoral states in the Black Sea. Turkey has also strongly supported the membership of two other Black Sea countries, Bulgaria and Romania, in NATO. Its Black Sea policies and military support constitute a robust example of its capacity to contribute to transatlantic cooperation. Accordingly, Turkey continues to fulfill its responsibility to export NATO standards in its region and its army-building efforts in Azerbaijan should be seen in this perspective.

Turkey was for a long time the object of army-building by others. Its modern military capacity and traditions are largely a result of efforts by the United States (and before of Prussia/Germany). Until the end of the First World War, the Ottoman Empire subscribed to the Prussian/German military school in the second quarter of nineteenth century, based on its victorious legacy through history. During and soon after the Second World War Turkey adopted U.S. military education and its armed forces were rapidly modernized by the United States, first bilaterally and then through NATO, after it became a member. Therefore, the military “school” Turkey is using to help others rebuild their armies is one it acquired earlier through the transatlantic alliance.

Turkey’s army-building capacity was clearly one of the leading factors contributing to Azerbaijan’s victory in the Second Nagorno-Karabakh War and the most important difference between the conflict of 2020 and the First Nagorno-Karabakh War. While the first conflict was between two armies with a Soviet military legacy, the second took place between an army still living in the previous century versus a modern army with Western standards. The role Turkey played in Azerbaijan demonstrates not only its army-building capacity, but also its potential to further contribute to the transatlantic alliance in its region and beyond.

Photo Credit: Bumble Dee / Shutterstock


 

GoatsMilk

Experienced member
Messages
3,450
Reactions
14 9,110
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Maybe the most critical moment in that war that has been revealed so far, was when the russians supplied their most advanced jamming devices. Had Turkey been merely a purchaser of armed drones and lacked domestic EW capabilities, who knows if that situation could have been overcome.
 

KKF 2.0

Well-known member
Messages
354
Reactions
825
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Maybe the most critical moment in that war that has been revealed so far, was when the russians supplied their most advanced jamming devices. Had Turkey been merely a purchaser of armed drones and lacked domestic EW capabilities, who knows if that situation could have been overcome.
The author of the article doesn't share your opinion. Read the article.
 

TR_123456

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
5,091
Reactions
12,694
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
Maybe the most critical moment in that war that has been revealed so far, was when the russians supplied their most advanced jamming devices. Had Turkey been merely a purchaser of armed drones and lacked domestic EW capabilities, who knows if that situation could have been overcome.
Its not about that,only about army standards.
Azerbaijan would have won anyway,it would have taken a bit longer.
 
A

adenl

Guest
Yes, without the Turkish weaponry, Azerbaijan would still win in the end but at a much higher cost and the conflict would be much longer.
 

Huelague

Experienced member
Messages
3,949
Reactions
5 4,146
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
AZ would win within one day if Russians does not help ARM.
 
T

Turko

Guest
If Putin hadn't allowed Azerbaidjan, Unfortunately there wouldn't have been any second Karabag war.

Do you think the first war was between Armenia and Azerbaycan? İn the first war Russian soldiers and Army fought against Azerbaycan.

Putin just let Azerbaycan to take back Karabag in order to show NATO who was a mere peacemaker and border changer. This act also underlined Russian imperial legacy over Ukraine and Belarus etc.
Putin said that " Karabag had always belonged to Azerbaycan". So we should understand : Cremia, Ukraine and Belarus had always belonged to Russians.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Xenon54

Experienced member
Switzerland Correspondent
Messages
2,181
Reactions
5 6,703
Nation of residence
Switzerland
Nation of origin
Turkey
If Putin hadn't allowed Azerbaidjan, Unfortunately there wouldn't have been any second Karabag war.

Do you think the first war was between Armenia and Azerbaycan? İn the first war Russian soldiers and Army fought against Azerbaycan.

Putin just let Azerbaycan to take back Karabag in order to show NATO who was a mere peacemaker and border changer. This act also underlined Russian imperial legacy over Ukraine and Belarus etc.
Putin said that " Karabag had always belonged to Azerbaycan". So we should understand : Cremia, Ukraine and Belarus had always belonged to Russians.
Russias military capabilities are way overrated these days, they are not the huge soviet army anymore and their equipment lack significant capabilities that western tech has, they are still chilling on their soviet legacy and have fallen way behind.

Russia is the most opportunistic country they would never allow Turkey to establish itself in caucasus if they were able to stop it, they didnt allow anything, they simply werent capable of stopping the inevitable.
 
T

Turko

Guest
Russias military capabilities are way overrated these days, they are not the huge soviet army anymore and their equipment lack significant capabilities that western tech has, they are still chilling on their soviet legacy and have fallen way behind.

Russia is the most opportunistic country they would never allow Turkey to establish itself in caucasus if they were able to stop it, they didnt allow anything, they simply werent capable of stopping the inevitable.
Unfortunately I don't agree with you. If Putin wanted , Russian Army could stop Azerbaidjan very well.
 
S

Sinan

Guest
the advisory role of Turkish senior military personnel in Azerbaijan’s operational plans and command.
Guys, i'm asking this to everbody. Like most of you i followed this war day by day. I read articles, watched videos, looked at pictures. But, i didn't see any evidence of what author claims. Does anyone have a real, solid evidence that Senior Turkish personel involved in Azeribaijan's operational plans and command?
 

Ardabas34

Contributor
Messages
537
Reactions
1,001
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Guys, i'm asking this to everbody. Like most of you i followed this war day by day. I read articles, watched videos, looked at pictures. But, i didn't see any evidence of what author claims. Does anyone have a real, solid evidence that Senior Turkish personel involved in Azeribaijan's operational plans and command?
No, but Armenians like to think we did because they arent comfortable with the idea that a nation they defeated 30 years ago defeated them today.

Unfortunately I don't agree with you. If Putin wanted , Russian Army could stop Azerbaidjan very well.
Agreed. Pashinyan is Soros' guy. He wants to put Armenia in globalists sphere. Russia supports mob-like old corrupted ones like Sergej or whatever. Aliyev alligned his interests with Russia, Russia also doesnt want to worsen its relationships with a strong independent ex-Soviet country neither. What was it supposed to say? No, Azerbaijan you may not take what is legally yours back? Russia said we can fulfill our OSCE duty only when land of one of the member states is attacked. The land in question was Azerbaijani land both in UN book and in Russia's book.
Now with these corridors, they ended up with leverages towards both nations too.
 
S

Sinan

Guest
No, but Armenians like to think we did because they arent comfortable with the idea that a nation they defeated 30 years ago defeated them today.
Not only from Armenians but i also saw that claim from some Turkish commentators too but i have not seen any evidence.
 

Ghost soldier

Хижак
Messages
1,389
Reactions
3 3,798
Nation of residence
Morocco
Nation of origin
Moroco
Not only from Armenians but i also saw that claim from some Turkish commentators too but i have not seen any evidence.
Maybe since it's classified info then normal there would not be evidence but no one denies Turkish support for Azerbaijan
 
T

Turko

Guest
Guys, i'm asking this to everbody. Like most of you i followed this war day by day. I read articles, watched videos, looked at pictures. But, i didn't see any evidence of what author claims. Does anyone have a real, solid evidence that Senior Turkish personel involved in Azeribaijan's operational plans and command?
Bro. Azerbaycan army didn't need any help while it fought against Armenia which was tiny army. As I said , in first Karabag war , Russian Army was the enemy of Azerbaycan so they couldn't cope with them . Armenia is easy bite, considering any other russian help.
 

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,634
Reactions
37 19,745
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
Guys, i'm asking this to everbody. Like most of you i followed this war day by day. I read articles, watched videos, looked at pictures. But, i didn't see any evidence of what author claims. Does anyone have a real, solid evidence that Senior Turkish personel involved in Azeribaijan's operational plans and command?
It says “allegedly” in the article.
 
S

Sinan

Guest
Maybe since it's classified info then normal there would not be evidence but no one denies Turkish support for Azerbaijan
Maybe yes, maybe no. We don't know. I have seen no proof as of yet. I'm just asking for proof nothing more.

It's really easy to write down articles likes this. Western Media does it all the time. They say, "According to anonymous sources Turkey sends Syrian Fighters to Azerbaijan". Against these articles we say, "Where is your proof" ?

So, same thing can be done. We should say, where is your proof. Everyone can produce arguments and defend their arguments that they are very logical (according to them) but what matters is actual proof. Otherwise, the whole article stops being reliable.
 

GoatsMilk

Experienced member
Messages
3,450
Reactions
14 9,110
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
The author of the article doesn't share your opinion. Read the article.

Ah for some reason i thought this was Azeri/Armenia war thread.

Concerning the article he's right but success in war is about combining and utilising many moving parts. With the most important element being able to adapt to rapidly changing situations. The EW systems Russia provided Armenia could have been game changing.

Just imagine for a minute that Russian EW systems paralysed UAV use. The only real obstacle towards an Azeri win was time. They needed to get victory quick before world powers could have moved in and stopped the fighting. You take away that air domination from UAV strikes and maybe Azerbaijan would have not been able to succeed at the level they did.

We all saw how the world rushed to create ceasefires since it benefited Armenian.

For me personally the most important thing Turkey provided was in creating enough threat that Turkey could enter the war that it kept Russia and Iran from entering on the side of Armenia. This is why Erdogan was constantly barking so loud as if he was directly in the fight, he was creating the perception that if any 3rd party enters that Turkey would have no choice but to enter too. Hence creating the cost of Russia or Iran interveenwing against Azerbaijan so much higher. In general it worked exceptionally well.
 

CAN_TR

Contributor
Messages
1,474
Reactions
17 5,211
Nation of residence
Austria
Nation of origin
Turkey
I doubt that this conflict is over not until total crushing victory so Azerbaijan better keeps building up the Armed Forces with Turkish support and rely more on Turkish hardware than Soviet/Russian/Belarus stuff. When both countries operate same systems it would make it much easier to share experience and improve capabilities.

It's time for preparing against bigger threats.
 

AzeriTank

Contributor
Messages
711
Reactions
3 1,795
Nation of residence
Azerbaijan
Nation of origin
Azerbaijan
If Putin hadn't allowed Azerbaidjan, Unfortunately there wouldn't have been any second Karabag war.

Do you think the first war was between Armenia and Azerbaycan? İn the first war Russian soldiers and Army fought against Azerbaycan.

Putin just let Azerbaycan to take back Karabag in order to show NATO who was a mere peacemaker and border changer. This act also underlined Russian imperial legacy over Ukraine and Belarus etc.
Putin said that " Karabag had always belonged to Azerbaycan". So we should understand : Cremia, Ukraine and Belarus had always belonged to Russians.
first Karabakh war and captured Russian soldiers who fought in afganistan and came to fight for Armenia, they say there that their whole army base from Afganistan are in Karabakh fighting from Armenian side for money..
also, Azerbaijan didnt have weapons to fight...
i would be honest, our side also fought same like Armenians, with Russian systems plus drones. biggest Turkish support was also preparing our SOF units that did the most of the job.. also, without Turkey Russia would never let it happen which is not secret.. our side was ready to start war without drones, just Turkish support behind us. but getting drones let way less casualties.. our people were ready to losses up to 30000-50000 soldiers to take those land back, but thanks to drones, it was only 3000. if we had Altay tanks, the whole loss would but less than 300... i would say less with hard kill protection system.. laser warning systems and so on...
 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom