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BalkanTurk90

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Germany will not budge, and EF will slowly be on its way out as Europe arms itself mainly with F-35s.
No aircraft stands a chance against the F-35 in modern BVR warfare. That's why Europeans are ditching the obsolete Eurofighters. As for the 6th gen tenders, NGAD is likely already in the works and will be launched in 2030 with the adaptive cycle engine. GCAP development may take longer. Them maturing into being airworthy, we will see the 5th gen rule the skies for the next 15 years at least.
If they create big modern all around IRST x2 of eurofighter which is 90km front , 190 back of aircraft .Than Eurofighter can spot F35 from 200km and shoot it down with meteor .( Estimate range of eurofighter IRST real range is secret )
 

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Eurofighter will still have a role to play in the future just like F-15 has a role to play. Widespread use of 5th gen in big numbers will take at least a decade; a strong platform with a big carry capacity will always be needed, like the F-15. We can use Eurofighters in a similar role to today's F-4 when nations like Greece acquire 5th gen in big numbers and counter their 5th gen with our Kaan.
 

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For sure F 35 is the most advanced fighter in the world yet Europeans had serious issues with availability rate of Eurofighter in the mid term they may even face more serious problems with F 35. Eventhough Russian war seems to have changed their perception I see it as a temporary stiuation.
 
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Yasar_TR

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For sure F 35 is the most advanced fighter in the world yet Europeans had serious issues with availability rate of Eurofighter in the mid term they may even face more serious problems with F 35. Eventhough Russian war seems to have changed their perception I see it as a temporary stiuation.
EF2000 Typhoon with its new hybrid (GaN/GaAs) ECRS-Mk2 Aesa radar and much advanced IRST sensor suite is a very capable fighter jet. As well as being able to fire the much acclaimed Meteor a2a missile it has a host of smart bombs and missiles for air to ground missions too. It could give a plane like Raptor a run for its money.
Although it is a closely guarded secret, It is thought that the Pirate IRST can passively detect a plane from 90km+ away from the front and 160km+ from the back.
With a very low RCS value (may well be the lowest there is as 4.5 generation planes go), it is a difficult plane to track.

The trend today for all major air powers is to employ a number of stealth planes to do the difficult jobs like deep strike and specialised BVR a2a warfare. But at the same time keep a large contingency of fighter jets to take the real burden of air warfare on their shoulders; Like F15EX and Typhoon to accompany the F35. (Su35 and Su57 in case of Russia- J20 and j10 in case China) .
We could do the same, post 2030, with our Typhoon+OzgurF16 and KAAN-Beast Mode combo accompanying our KAAN stealth planes.

1701527369452.jpeg
 

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EF2000 Typhoon with its new hybrid (GaN/GaAs) ECRS-Mk2 Aesa radar and much advanced IRST sensor suite is a very capable fighter jet. As well as being able to fire the much acclaimed Meteor a2a missile it has a host of smart bombs and missiles for air to ground missions too. It could give a plane like Raptor a run for its money.
Although it is a closely guarded secret, It is thought that the Pirate IRST can passively detect a plane from 90km+ away from the front and 160km+ from the back.
With a very low RCS value (may well be the lowest there is as 4.5 generation planes go), it is a difficult plane to track.

The trend today for all major air powers is to employ a number of stealth planes to do the difficult jobs like deep strike and specialised BVR a2a warfare. But at the same time keep a large contingency of fighter jets to take the real burden of air warfare on their shoulders; Like F15EX and Typhoon to accompany the F35. (Su35 and Su57 in case of Russia- J20 and j10 in case China) .
We could do the same, post 2030, with our Typhoon+OzgurF16 and KAAN-Beast Mode combo accompanying our KAAN stealth planes.

View attachment 63493
totally agree with that Eurofighter in Turkish Airfoce can/will be a different beast especially if we can secure the integreation of our weapon systems. I know it may sound way too optimistic at this point but I may even go futher and claim that for the future our battle proven weapons may even find customers among Eurofighter users.


seperatly on the future of F 35 in Europe, my point was Europeans had serious issues with availability rate for Eurofighter and it is safe to assume that F 35 may/will suffer the same in European hands eventhough ''F 35 seemigly has well organized logistic structure...'' is it my bias? may be :devilish:
 
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Sanchez

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seperatly on the future of F 35 in Europe, my point was Europeans had serious issues with availability rate for Eurofighter and it is safe to assume that F 35 may/will suffer the same in European hands eventhough ''F 35 seemigly has well organized logistic structure...'' is it my bias? may be :devilish:
To add to this from another viewpoint, so far Eurofighter's capabilities grew with increments. I remember seeing a statistics from few years ago showing at least 40% of all German Typhoons undergoing retrofit or visiting shops at any given time raising them from Trance 1 to 3 and 3A. This excludes the part about lack of spares and even weapons. UK with their constant budget cuts is not exactly similar. Although their expected availability rate is higher, they also perform below expectations from 2 decades ago.

Wish we had statistics for Spanish and Italian planes, who do keep spares and the funds. What I understand from looking at it, with Tranche 4 being a last hoorah after all is said and done, availability rate for the type will increase, as there will be no more constant modernizations and incremental increases.

To add to you, F-35 at least gets some of its updates as software directly, which does increase availability.
 

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To add to this from another viewpoint, so far Eurofighter's capabilities grew with increments. I remember seeing a statistics from few years ago showing at least 40% of all German Typhoons undergoing retrofit or visiting shops at any given time raising them from Trance 1 to 3 and 3A. This excludes the part about lack of spares and even weapons. UK with their constant budget cuts is not exactly similar. Although their expected availability rate is higher, they also perform below expectations from 2 decades ago.

Wish we had statistics for Spanish and Italian planes, who do keep spares and the funds. What I understand from looking at it, with Tranche 4 being a last hoorah after all is said and done, availability rate for the type will increase, as there will be no more constant modernizations and incremental increases.

To add to you, F-35 at least gets some of its updates as software directly, which does increase availability.
out of topic but kind of made me smile

The F-35A fighter jet, which was damaged by a bird strike in January 2022, is being removed from service due to high repair costs.

https://x.com/Defence_Turk/status/1730956895362359509?s=20
 

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EF and Rafale come from the same family of the program.

Its gonna be interesting seeing Greece with their Rafales and the Turks with their Eurofighter Typhoons.
 

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EF and Rafale come from the same family of the program.

Its gonna be interesting seeing Greece with their Rafales and the Turks with their Eurofighter Typhoons.


In Aegean, Turkiye designs its warfare systematics and tactics with a complete network concept based on capabilities of aircrafts and complexity of other strategic assets but in Greece, this situation occurs in the opposite way. Greece is interested in either capabilities of existing aircrafts in its fleet or ranges of missiles they carry and justifies its superiority in this way.

Turkiye OTOH evaluates highly advanced fighter/bomber drones with GaN AESA KE2/3, Anka-3 in different forms, Anka-4 AI/deep learning computer systems in the air picture together with Jammer aircraft, pods, land based jammers, passive radar and other fighter aircraft with AESA such as Hürjet, F16Özgür2, EF-T4 and KAAN. All of the aircrafts with AESA will be able to fire BVR Gökdogan and Gokhan missiles and the general superiority picture is created based on these tactics prepared accordingly but Greece thinks that Gokhan equivalent Meteor or stealth 24 F35 will be the reason to rule Aegean and provide superiority against Turks.

In Near/Mid future, I think Turkiye is focussing on ground-air engagement capability with land-based Siper's with a range of 200+km in Aegean as far as terrain shape/islands allow as well and we are even talking about SAMs with Ramjets. When all these are put on top of each other, we come across a completely different understanding of superiority. What I mean is that Turkiye won't allow its aircrafts to fight one by one against Rafale or F35 or any SAM in war times.
 

Yasar_TR

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EF and Rafale come from the same family of the program.

Its gonna be interesting seeing Greece with their Rafales and the Turks with their Eurofighter Typhoons.
From a technical point of view and as an addition to @Cabatli_TR ’s post, it should be noted that although Rafale and Typhoon may give the impression that they are from the same kin, they are quite different.
Yes they are both twin engined delta wing aircraft with canards. But for a start, Typhoon’s RCS is much smaller. It has more powerful engines. The ECRS-Mk2 hybrid Aesa radar is much more powerful than the one on Rafale.
Rafale was produced as a multi purpose aircraft; Air to air, air to ground and carrier based operations. Therefore it is normal to expect certain compromises in its performance as per the F35. In spite of all this, to give it’s due, it turned out to be a very capable fighter.
Typhoon however, was produced as an air superiority/interceptor fighter jet. It was in later iterations that Typhoon gained the air to ground attack capability. It can operate at more than 10000ft higher altitudes than Rafale and is the only western plane, apart from F22, that can supercruise at or above 1.5 Mach.
Also as per @Cabatli_TR ’s comments, the Typhoon in it’s latest form joining Turkish airforce will be part of the larger defence posture we will have as opposed to being a solitary fighter. It will have capability to fire our own missiles and bombs, making it even more effective.
 

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Also as per @Cabatli_TR ’s comments, the Typhoon in it’s latest form joining Turkish airforce will be part of the larger defence posture we will have as opposed to being a solitary fighter.
I think this is the most important point any procurement made by us, or Greece. Don't look at the items one by one, look at them as a whole, along with existing platform. And then, factor in how mature the concept/doctrine of the country is, and how proficient they are at it. For example, we developed a drone doctrine that shocked everyone at Syria, Libya and Azerbaijan even as our drones were looked down on.

If we manage to use our resources, as in our planes, drones, air defence systems, right and develop our air warfare concepts effectively, then we can negate any advantage they might have with F-35s or Rafales.
 

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The Hürjet project has reached a very advanced stage. With a planned delivery date of 2025, the testing and verification phases of the aircraft avionics should already be at the completion stage. So, almost all of avionics incl FCS, communication systems and related equipment, human-machine interfaces and computing systems, navigation systems and antennas etc., flight control, cockpit and commutator systems, display systems and surfaces and all related components are currently in the testing process. Mechanically: landing gears, various types of actuators for supersonic speeds and tens of hundreds of other subsystems that mostly common to the supersonic AJT and fighter jets.

I don't know if we can assume that one of the outcomes of the parallel running of the KAAN and Hurjet projects is a flexible design logic for the many subsystems developed, but basically we are currently preparing hundreds of subsystems for two different aircraft, and the design team of each system generally consists of the same engineering teams.

So I think we have two parallel lines one is Hurjet and other is KAAN. The question is, between these two parallel lines, would drawing the third one be as long and costly as the other two lines, or would it be very practical and cost-effective to create a fork?

Creating a combat jet that uses the Hurjet infrastructure, but with more than twice the combat weight, may be more beneficial than waiting at the door for the EF-T4 and F-16-B70, which are at risk of dragging on until the 2030s. Going even further, in order to avoid wasting time on a new platform design, it may not be as long a road as one might think to license a base design of any non-NATO fighter jet from a country other than those that are hesitant to give us aircraft, and equip it entirely with indigenous electronic and mechanical systems. I mean, of course, it is a long way, but it seems that for procurement within NATO will not be as shortcut as it was thought to be.
 

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View attachment 63526

Swiss Air Force's evaluation of all three Euro-canard.
I guess that dates back 10 years or more so those aircraft will have progressed in capability. American content is to be avoided, I assume. The only 2 non-Russian/Chinese types without US engines are Rafale and Typhoon. As we know, Eurofighter is unavailable at the moment. Rafale production slots are booked up for years, even if France were prepared to supply.
 

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The question is, between these two parallel lines, would drawing the third one be as long and costly as the other two lines, or would it be very practical and cost-effective to create a fork?
Imo, we would stretch ourselves too thin by trying to add a completely new design/production line between Hürjet and TF-x. We only have so many qualified people that can work on these things and we are probably already pushing them to their limits.

And not to mention, who is going to let us license build a jet? None of the countries that refuse to sell us the planes themselves would do it. Russia's designs are way different than what we've been used to building and on top of that, Russia is a pariah state now and making any new deals with them is not just shooting ourselves in the foot but basically shoving a shotgun up our asses and giving the trigger to US to pull. Not to mention it is Russia and I'd rather not betray Ukraine by doing business with them, because fuck Russia.

That only leaves China and frankly they have the closest thing to F-16 in J-10, but again, why would they let us license build it when they could sell it themselves and if we did buy it from them we are back to shotgun in the ass.

Our best bet right now is the continue trying to get Eurofighters and/or F-16s and powering through with Hürjet and Kaan.
 

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- your RCS is much smaller
-your radar is much more powerful
-you operate at more than 10000ft higher altitudes than your adversary

most probable outcome is your adversary is now bussy defending your BVR missiles
 
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