TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[boredaf]

There are still 2 ongoing 6th gen fighter projects but at this point what is the strategic significance of that? Or if they are struggling to support their eurofighter production lines and ordering F35s instead ( remember most smaller eu nations also have F35, not eurofighter) and refusing to export eurofighters to 3rd countries, how are they gonna maintain their 6th generation project? Will they buy like a tiny fleet of 6th gen for exorbitant prices and fail to maintain even those?

Significance of that is, Eurofighter block is not on the same page, UK and Italy is on the one side while Spain and Germany is on the other. So there are already cracks in that group in that regard. And Germany refusing two costumers back to back doesn't help it either.

I highly doubt they are going to put orders large enough to keep Eurofighter production lines going, while also putting in hundreds of millions worth F-35 orders. At the very least German government doesn't like that idea, even their upgrades are lagging behind. And as things stand, not my opinion btw this is according to experts, those production lines will collapse by 2030.

That's highly skilled labour losing well paying jobs and they are not just going to sit on their asses between end of Eurofighter production and while waiting for whatever 6th gen fighter their countries choose. So there is a chance the loss will be even bigger than just economical, but also a skilled labour drain. Germany is fucking over themselves, UK, Spain and Italy in one pig-headed decision.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Will they buy like a tiny fleet of 6th gen for exorbitant prices and fail to maintain even those?

Even that won't happen. They will cancel the 6th Generation fighter projects one after another, and they will all line up to buy F35s, just like a cat with spilled milk.

 

[Afif]

Even that won't happen. They will cancel the 6th Generation fighter projects one after another, and they will all line up to buy F35s, just like a cat with spilled milk.

FCAS may get canceled but Tempset definitely won't. Contracts for the development has been signed and are already in motion.

 

[uçuyorum]

FCAS may get canceled but Tempset definitely won't. Contract for the development has been signed and already in motion.

Japan joining GCAP is the best thing that could have happend to the project honestly.

 

[boredaf]

Even that won't happen. They will cancel the 6th Generation fighter projects one after another, and they will all line up to buy F35s, just like a cat with spilled milk.

I honestly don't think that'll happen, at least 1 European program will survive because Trump scared the shit out of them. Before him, I don't think EU leaders ever questioned what would happen if US abandoned (or even turned on) them. But they now realize what we have known for decades, there are no guarantees when it comes to US. Trump could win 2024, and even if he lost, he has GOP by the balls because his influence almost completely won over their voters. So, from now on, whenever a Republican president wins an election, there is a chance that they'll screw over Europe just as bad as us, but its effects would be worse for them because we've had time to adapt.

That's one of the reasons why, imo, these EF sales are very important for them, they have to keep the lines open to keep the skilled labour from going to greener pastures until 6th gen production starts.

 

[Spitfire9]

Even that won't happen. They will cancel the 6th Generation fighter projects one after another, and they will all line up to buy F35s, just like a cat with spilled milk.

In terms of GCAP, this programme is still being defined - what to build and partner responsibilities for funding, development and production. FCAS looks to be a programme dominated by and set up in France's favour.

Japan seems determined to pursue a 6G programme - with others or on its own. I don't think that France will give up on a fighter to follow on from Rafale so would likely go on to produce something on its own.

 

[Spitfire9]

FCAS may get canceled but Tempset definitely won't. Contracts for the development has been signed and are already in motion.

Not for a finalised design. I think that funding for the last few years has been spent on investigating which technologies could be used in Tempest. A decision on whether to go ahead should be made 2024/2025.

 

[Merzifonlu]

@boredaf

If Europeans had the kind of strategic independence you mentioned, Chancellor Merkel would not have been removed from power as a result of American imposition. What POTUS Trump meant when he said "spend more money on defense" was allocate more money for USA weapons. LOL

IMO He never meant independent EU weapons projects.

The USA, which has enough influence to remove Merkel from power, of course wants all EU countries to be F35 customers. And i am absolutely sure that she will impose this.

 

[TsumugiShirogane]

By chance I spotted this. The defenseaerospace.com website is now based in France and tends to report negatively on British aviation matters but I think it gives an idea of why Scholz is unlikely change his position on EF supplies to Turkiye.

defense-aerospace.com

People in countries affected by the block can rage away as much as they like but I don't think it will change anything. I think the people who can change things (possibly) are the Germans in the next election.

Germany will not budge, and EF will slowly be on its way out as Europe arms itself mainly with F-35s.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721856348848029769

No aircraft stands a chance against the F-35 in modern BVR warfare. That's why Europeans are ditching the obsolete Eurofighters. As for the 6th gen tenders, NGAD is likely already in the works and will be launched in 2030 with the adaptive cycle engine. GCAP development may take longer. Them maturing into being airworthy, we will see the 5th gen rule the skies for the next 15 years at least.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Germany will not budge, and EF will slowly be on its way out as Europe arms itself mainly with F-35s.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721856348848029769

No aircraft stands a chance against the F-35 in modern BVR warfare. That's why Europeans are ditching the obsolete Eurofighters. As for the 6th gen tenders, NGAD is likely already in the works and will be launched in 2030 with the adaptive cycle engine. GCAP development may take longer. Them maturing into being airworthy, we will see the 5th gen rule the skies for the next 15 years at least.

If they create big modern all around IRST x2 of eurofighter which is 90km front , 190 back of aircraft .Than Eurofighter can spot F35 from 200km and shoot it down with meteor .( Estimate range of eurofighter IRST real range is secret )

 

[TheInsider]

Eurofighter will still have a role to play in the future just like F-15 has a role to play. Widespread use of 5th gen in big numbers will take at least a decade; a strong platform with a big carry capacity will always be needed, like the F-15. We can use Eurofighters in a similar role to today's F-4 when nations like Greece acquire 5th gen in big numbers and counter their 5th gen with our Kaan.

 

[Quasar]

For sure F 35 is the most advanced fighter in the world yet Europeans had serious issues with availability rate of Eurofighter in the mid term they may even face more serious problems with F 35. Eventhough Russian war seems to have changed their perception I see it as a temporary stiuation.

 

[Yasar_TR]

For sure F 35 is the most advanced fighter in the world yet Europeans had serious issues with availability rate of Eurofighter in the mid term they may even face more serious problems with F 35. Eventhough Russian war seems to have changed their perception I see it as a temporary stiuation.

EF2000 Typhoon with its new hybrid (GaN/GaAs) ECRS-Mk2 Aesa radar and much advanced IRST sensor suite is a very capable fighter jet. As well as being able to fire the much acclaimed Meteor a2a missile it has a host of smart bombs and missiles for air to ground missions too. It could give a plane like Raptor a run for its money.
Although it is a closely guarded secret, It is thought that the Pirate IRST can passively detect a plane from 90km+ away from the front and 160km+ from the back.
With a very low RCS value (may well be the lowest there is as 4.5 generation planes go), it is a difficult plane to track.

The trend today for all major air powers is to employ a number of stealth planes to do the difficult jobs like deep strike and specialised BVR a2a warfare. But at the same time keep a large contingency of fighter jets to take the real burden of air warfare on their shoulders; Like F15EX and Typhoon to accompany the F35. (Su35 and Su57 in case of Russia- J20 and j10 in case China) .
We could do the same, post 2030, with our Typhoon+OzgurF16 and KAAN-Beast Mode combo accompanying our KAAN stealth planes.

 

[Quasar]

EF2000 Typhoon with its new hybrid (GaN/GaAs) ECRS-Mk2 Aesa radar and much advanced IRST sensor suite is a very capable fighter jet. As well as being able to fire the much acclaimed Meteor a2a missile it has a host of smart bombs and missiles for air to ground missions too. It could give a plane like Raptor a run for its money.
Although it is a closely guarded secret, It is thought that the Pirate IRST can passively detect a plane from 90km+ away from the front and 160km+ from the back.
With a very low RCS value (may well be the lowest there is as 4.5 generation planes go), it is a difficult plane to track.

The trend today for all major air powers is to employ a number of stealth planes to do the difficult jobs like deep strike and specialised BVR a2a warfare. But at the same time keep a large contingency of fighter jets to take the real burden of air warfare on their shoulders; Like F15EX and Typhoon to accompany the F35. (Su35 and Su57 in case of Russia- J20 and j10 in case China) .
We could do the same, post 2030, with our Typhoon+OzgurF16 and KAAN-Beast Mode combo accompanying our KAAN stealth planes.

View attachment 63493

totally agree with that Eurofighter in Turkish Airfoce can/will be a different beast especially if we can secure the integreation of our weapon systems. I know it may sound way too optimistic at this point but I may even go futher and claim that for the future our battle proven weapons may even find customers among Eurofighter users.


seperatly on the future of F 35 in Europe, my point was Europeans had serious issues with availability rate for Eurofighter and it is safe to assume that F 35 may/will suffer the same in European hands eventhough ''F 35 seemigly has well organized logistic structure...'' is it my bias? may be

 

[Sanchez]

seperatly on the future of F 35 in Europe, my point was Europeans had serious issues with availability rate for Eurofighter and it is safe to assume that F 35 may/will suffer the same in European hands eventhough ''F 35 seemigly has well organized logistic structure...'' is it my bias? may be

To add to this from another viewpoint, so far Eurofighter's capabilities grew with increments. I remember seeing a statistics from few years ago showing at least 40% of all German Typhoons undergoing retrofit or visiting shops at any given time raising them from Trance 1 to 3 and 3A. This excludes the part about lack of spares and even weapons. UK with their constant budget cuts is not exactly similar. Although their expected availability rate is higher, they also perform below expectations from 2 decades ago.

Wish we had statistics for Spanish and Italian planes, who do keep spares and the funds. What I understand from looking at it, with Tranche 4 being a last hoorah after all is said and done, availability rate for the type will increase, as there will be no more constant modernizations and incremental increases.

To add to you, F-35 at least gets some of its updates as software directly, which does increase availability.

 

[Quasar]

To add to this from another viewpoint, so far Eurofighter's capabilities grew with increments. I remember seeing a statistics from few years ago showing at least 40% of all German Typhoons undergoing retrofit or visiting shops at any given time raising them from Trance 1 to 3 and 3A. This excludes the part about lack of spares and even weapons. UK with their constant budget cuts is not exactly similar. Although their expected availability rate is higher, they also perform below expectations from 2 decades ago.

Wish we had statistics for Spanish and Italian planes, who do keep spares and the funds. What I understand from looking at it, with Tranche 4 being a last hoorah after all is said and done, availability rate for the type will increase, as there will be no more constant modernizations and incremental increases.

To add to you, F-35 at least gets some of its updates as software directly, which does increase availability.

out of topic but kind of made me smile

The F-35A fighter jet, which was damaged by a bird strike in January 2022, is being removed from service due to high repair costs.

https://x.com/Defence_Turk/status/1730956895362359509?s=20

 

[Oublious]

out of topic but kind of made me smile

The F-35A fighter jet, which was damaged by a bird strike in January 2022, is being removed from service due to high repair costs.

https://x.com/Defence_Turk/status/1730956895362359509?s=20

You can compare it with Tesla, the bodywork is made of 1 single structure. When you get a damage the car is economic total loss. It is cheap to manafucture but after that .

 

[Heartbang]

They did surgery on an F-35

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1730412058162897375

 

[Ryder]

EF and Rafale come from the same family of the program.

Its gonna be interesting seeing Greece with their Rafales and the Turks with their Eurofighter Typhoons.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

EF and Rafale come from the same family of the program.

Its gonna be interesting seeing Greece with their Rafales and the Turks with their Eurofighter Typhoons.

In Aegean, Turkiye designs its warfare systematics and tactics with a complete network concept based on capabilities of aircrafts and complexity of other strategic assets but in Greece, this situation occurs in the opposite way. Greece is interested in either capabilities of existing aircrafts in its fleet or ranges of missiles they carry and justifies its superiority in this way.

Turkiye OTOH evaluates highly advanced fighter/bomber drones with GaN AESA KE2/3, Anka-3 in different forms, Anka-4 AI/deep learning computer systems in the air picture together with Jammer aircraft, pods, land based jammers, passive radar and other fighter aircraft with AESA such as Hürjet, F16Özgür2, EF-T4 and KAAN. All of the aircrafts with AESA will be able to fire BVR Gökdogan and Gokhan missiles and the general superiority picture is created based on these tactics prepared accordingly but Greece thinks that Gokhan equivalent Meteor or stealth 24 F35 will be the reason to rule Aegean and provide superiority against Turks.

In Near/Mid future, I think Turkiye is focussing on ground-air engagement capability with land-based Siper's with a range of 200+km in Aegean as far as terrain shape/islands allow as well and we are even talking about SAMs with Ramjets. When all these are put on top of each other, we come across a completely different understanding of superiority. What I mean is that Turkiye won't allow its aircrafts to fight one by one against Rafale or F35 or any SAM in war times.