TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Kartal1]

Nice discussion going on. But what I don’t quite understand is why RTE and TAF aren’t causing tussle in YPG/PKK controlled area in Syria.

Taking Manbij would infuriate the PKK sympatizers in Europe like in the past. What’s important is to keep fanning these flames. So the general public in EU starts perceiving the danger of PKK. Guess the US threatening Turkey must have made us stand down, biding our time.

Why even bother to ask for fighter jets and thereby create a bad image when you know your so called allies are just going to say no. Just order 100 rolls royce jet engines from UK and make your own jet.

While I don't want to derail the thread I want to say that it is wrong assumption to think that we don't create "tussle" as you call it in YPG controlled areas. In the last tribal rebellion we provided passive support. Tribal fighters were crossing trough our controlled territory to fight in the hot areas including Manbij. The MoFA even made a statement at the time. The mastery with actions like these is to find the perfect timing. I am sure that when the time comes we can give them some trouble.

On the issue on why would Turkiye ask for fighters while knowing that the offer will most probably be declined:

Because history is writing it all. When the time comes to sit on the table infront of the international community Turkiye will have the chance to prove its point of hidden embargoes and legitimize diplomatic and military moves that would otherwise be thought as controversial. I just hope the decision maker don't go extreme like in the case with the S-400 by procuring an absolute junk and even worsening the situation while adding close to zero benefit.

 

[Ripley]

That kind of moral relativism fails here because Sweden, due to the EU, also recognizes the PKK as a terror organization. So it’s not a “your terrorist, my freedom fighter” kind of situation. This is the main obstacle for their NATO membership, not F16s. The subject of PKK is more important than Sweden or any aircraft.

Everything you wrote is correct

And particularly this
”This is the main obstacle for their NATO membership, not F16s.”

However, this is where we ended up and it is also true

Now, even our government officials tooting their horns loudly everywhere, simply telling you can kiss Sweden’s membership goodbye while any arms deals were not the part of Sweden’s acceptance to the NATO. The official Turkish stand was their harboring an organization officially recognized as terrorist by NATO and offshoots of the said organization.
Apples and oranges.

edit: this has become more of politics and geopolitics thread’s content. I apologize to mod team.

 

[Spitfire9]

One of the posters earlier said that a request for F-16 was made in 2018. If US had wanted to supply Turkiye a deal would have gone through years ago, I think. It would have been wise to look into the possibility of getting Eurofighter far earlier.

If neither F-16 nor Typhoon are available for supply, what is the likely response? Buy from Pakistan or Russia or China? To me JF-17 may be the best bet if buying Russian or Chinese is out of the question. It is cheap. It is available.

 

[Ryder]

Russian preparation and the kind of mobilization and the number of troops with which they attacked Ukraine, betrayed the fact of their plan a and plan b from the get-go (i.e. you cannot conquer a country of that size, with that kind of mobilization). The little stunt with the march to Kiev was a gamble, and the speed with which they backed off shows they didn't put much faith in that gamble. To believe Western intelligence agencies about Russian plans prima facie, and taking seriously the proclamations about "Putler's" imperialist dreams is as serious as talking about Erdogan's Ottoman dreams.

Now the fact that Swedes are not immune to propaganda and their consent was manufactured duly, does not change the fact that U.S. has been pushing for a more nationalist strand in Ukraine to, contrary to the wishes of the French and the Germans, ignore the Minsk Agreements and push for confrontation instead. The fact that this process would lead to the Swedish and Finnish public perception being receptive of entering NATO, esp. after a healthy dose of 1-week of fear-mongering by "independent" media, would not have been a far-fetched prophecy.

I think it's safe to assume U.S., as the big boss of NATO, has a little bit more say in who they can wink at to woo in. Since day 1, U.S. has been saying that they are "certain" Sweden and Finland will join NATO. Doesn't seem like they think anybody else had any say, or that this was a very haphazard development.

Russia was expanding before the invasion of Ukraine.

The West only turned a blind eye to it. They believed Russia wpuld be a great ally to have in the future and are willing to turn a blind eye to everything they do as long as it does not affect them.

Chechnya, Georgia, Syria along with expanding its footprint in Africa. When Russia violated Turkish airspace, USA and its allies bascially told Turkiye you are on your own.

 

[ClaudeJ]

Is it anything official on Germany actually blocking a last-tranche Typhoon deal for Turkey?

 

[DBdev]

Is it anything official on Germany actually blocking a last-tranche Typhoon deal for Turkey?

KAAN will fly in less than a month. Who cares about Germans? We will sell KAAN to all their customers when their Eurofighter factories completely shut down in 2030.

 

[Maximilien Robespierre]

KAAN will fly in less than a month. Who cares about Germans? We will sell KAAN to all their customers when their Eurofighter factories completely shut down in 2030.

a plane that not went into serial production that doesn't even have a engine yet will be better than eurofighter keep dreaming buddy Even the radar is not ready.

 

[DBdev]

a plane that not went into serial production that doesn't even have a engine yet will be better than eurofighter keep dreaming buddy Even the radar is not ready.

TUSAS CEO Kotil already said they will deliver 20 KAAN to Turkish Air Force in 2028. And will make 2 more each month. Also they can keep doubling that easily as much as required. Also according to CEO Turkish TRMotor turbofan engines will be ready in 2028.

I trust HIM buddy, he stood behind his words so far.

Aselsan Murad is never "ready" and never will be. New radar development on such a critical platform is always ongoing. You need to gather as much radar signature data as possible (Qatar brings their jets to us for that purpose) from various angles, distances and conditions to identify enemy from as far a distance possible without revealing your own location. And to improve your AESA wave forming techniques, EW, cooling etc. Murad, BURFIS will never be "ready" but both will do their jobs. Just like ground based AESA radars from Aselsan they will improve constantly.

 

[Spitfire9]

Approval for F-16 and Eurofighter is not forthcoming. It looks to me that the earliest KAAN (with F110) will be delivered to TuAF is early in the next decade. If that is a problem, Turkiye has a problem. The question to me is whether any steps can be taken to mitigate that problem - can a type be ordered that could enter service several years before KAAN? Getting a type into service shortly before KAAN enters service does not seem like a good idea but

(a) would cover the risk of substantial delay in F110 KAAN entering service
(b) would give Turkiye the option of abandoning the idea of a production version using F110 in favour of waiting for a KAAN version with a Turkish engine

That second option makes me think of India. India may approve procuring 100 more Tejas Mk1A tomorrow - not because the IAF wants them particularly (it wants medium weight fighters) but because it is the quickest way of getting more fighters into service.

 

[Ryder]

Approval for F-16 and Eurofighter is not forthcoming. It looks to me that the earliest KAAN (with F110) will be delivered to TuAF is early in the next decade. If that is a problem, Turkiye has a problem. The question to me is whether any steps can be taken to mitigate that problem - can a type be ordered that could enter service several years before KAAN? Getting a type into service shortly before KAAN enters service does not seem like a good idea but

(a) would cover the risk of substantial delay in F110 KAAN entering service
(b) would give Turkiye the option of abandoning the idea of a production version using F110 in favour of waiting for a KAAN version with a Turkish engine

That second option makes me think of India. India may approve procuring 100 more Tejas Mk1A tomorrow - not because the IAF wants them particularly (it wants medium weight fighters) but because it is the quickest way of getting more fighters into service.

F16V and EF are stop gap measures.

F35A and the F35B was still in the plans of the Turkish Airforce and the Turkish Navy until they got confiscated and kicked out.

Since F16V and EF are going through hurdles the plan is now the Kaan.

Stop gap measures will be fine until the Kaan is ready.

 

[Spitfire9]

TUSAS CEO Kotil already said they will deliver 20 KAAN to Turkish Air Force in 2028. And will make 2 more each month. Also they can keep doubling that easily as much as required. Also according to CEO Turkish TRMotor turbofan engines will be ready in 2028.

I trust HIM buddy, he stood behind his words so far.

KAAN prototype construction was not started with a frozen design so it should evolve during testing. I do not understand how TAI will be able to make design changes, test those changes, reach design freeze, set up production and start rolling KAAN off the line in less than 5 years.

KAI started testing KF-21 mid-2022 and intends to start production some time in 2024 but it had frozen the design before prototype construction and built 6 prototypes in a year. KAAN is in a different situation.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Even if we dont have new fighter aircraft until 2033 we can overcome the problem :

1- Producing advanced kizilelma, anka 3 and other steath drones with Aesa radar + AA missile
2- Producing huge number in mass of advanced MRBM Cenk type missiles with 1500km+ range
3- Producing in mass advanced longrange Siper block 2/3/4 300-400-500 km range.
4- Upgrading all F16 with modern Turk systems.

 

[Spitfire9]

Türkiye has been making most parts of F110 for decades believe it or not as half partner of General Electric.

And now we can make the "top secret" hot parts too, all in Türkiye without any foreign help. Thanks to 800+ critical material, cutting edge production projects started decades earlier.

Korea, India are far behind of Türkiye in engine area. Even their engine project targets aren't close to top of the line GE-F110 that we have mastered.

If west doesn't give even licensed production permission to build F110s. We could easily make a slightly modified version tomorrow.
It is out of courtesy that we are asking, not desperation like some skeptics in west imagine.

Korea, India, Europe never had the urgency we have. They don't work 3 shift days including all engineers like we do for years. They have to justify their spending, etc. we don't. KAAN, it's engines are national priority. Eurofighter, F-16V they can act like jerks, if they want to. We can do without them thanks to Siper that is being delivered to TAF.

That is why Turkish KAAN and TRMotor 5th gen stealth turbofan will finish much faster than others including CHINA. Since they started from scratch. When were already making F110s, F-16s and even 5th gen F-35 parts in Türkiye.

PS: The engineer who made billion dollar a pop B2 stealth plane, well... stealth is a Turkish patriot. His entire village was murdered by Greeks. He was the sole survivor as a baby.

Don't compare us with other nations.

So you would prefer me not to say that I think Turkiye would get KAAN into production faster than other countries would if they had reached the same state of progress in the project.

Not referring to you, I'm not a Turkish patriot wearing rose-tinted glasses about everything Turkish so when I comment I set out to make comments that I find realistic.

 

[Maximilien Robespierre]

Even if we dont have new fighter aircraft until 2033 we can overcome the problem :

1- Producing advanced kizilelma, anka 3 and other steath drones with Aesa radar + AA missile
2- Producing huge number in mass of advanced MRBM Cenk type missiles with 1500km+ range
3- Producing in mass advanced longrange Siper block 2/3/4 300-400-500 km range.
4- Upgrading all F16 with modern Turk systems.

It doesn't work like that.

 

[Huelague]

Yeah bro keep dreaming we don't even mass produced TF600 but surely we could make a fifth gen engine maybe stop watching TRT or A-haber.

*Korea, India are far behind of Türkiye in engine area. Even their engine project targets aren't close to top of the line GE-F110 that we have mastered.*

This part made me laugh India was building several engines while we were struggling with TS1400 and that is a turboshaft engine not even a jet engine.

We turks have this delusion that KAAN will beat F35 or other proven jets KAAN will enter service in probably 2035 with foreign engines.

Also making an F110 engine doesn't qualift that tr motor could made fifth gen engine in 5 years even superpowers had problems and they weren't embargoed like us.

F110 IS A FOURTH GEN ENGINE MAN AMOUNT OF MISINFORMATION AND DELUSION THIS GUY IS WRITING KILLING ME @Nilgiri could you give him a lesson about Indian engine programs he seems ignorant

"It cant be, what not should not be." Right?

 

[Maximilien Robespierre]

"It cant be, what not should not be." Right?

Don't come here and be sad when the first prototype crashes because we are rushing this project. Not even the radar for KAAN is ready and we don't know the state of passive or active sensors. plus making a so called fifth gen engine in 5 years is just playing for the crows.

 

[cr33pt3d]

damn so much pressure on those engineers . from politicians to burocrats everybody is putting more and more pressure on those poor guys, don't wanna be the messenger of doom, but someone should ask what will their mental status be if that bird crashes ? let alone the 2-3 years it will take to get back on track.

anyone who worked on big projects will understand how hard it is to get all those people motivation back, if such a disaster happens. we lost 20% of our devs in a startup due to bad project management

I hope TAI has invested in psy support team, as should any company working on projects with high scrutiny.

 

[Zafer]

damn so much pressure on those engineers . from politicians to burocrats everybody is putting more and more pressure on those poor guys, don't wanna be the messenger of doom, but someone should ask what will their mental status be if that bird crashes ? let alone the 2-3 years it will take to get back on track.

anyone who worked on big projects will understand how hard it is to get all those peoples motivation back, if such a disaster happens. we lost 20% of our devs in a startup due to bad project management

I hope TAI has invested in psy support team, as should any company working on projects with high scrutiny.

Imagine what happens at wartime. Military industrial complex can use some overload test to prepare for wartime. At wartime engineers will be lucky for just losing sleep. It is OK to fail if you are speeding. More prototypes are in production already, so there won't be major setbacks. Somebody said "If you are not failing you are not trying hard enough".

 

[Huelague]

Don't come here and be sad when the first prototype crashes because we are rushing this project. Not even the radar for KAAN is ready and we don't know the state of passive or active sensors. plus making a so called fifth gen engine in 5 years is just playing for the crows.

Dont worry, I won't do.

 

[Glass🚬]

Is it anything official on Germany actually blocking a last-tranche Typhoon deal for Turkey?

I dont think they will block it, this seems to be quite important for airbus as well and combined with ig metall there would be enough pressure, otherwise the whole market share will be given to the americans also within germany in a few years lel.