TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

Sanchez

Experienced member
Moderator
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Diplomat
Messages
1,634
Reactions
56 7,413
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
I said in the past that I don’t think this kind of venture was smart for TAI and it would pull too many resources. For an up and coming company like Uçaksan tho, it makes perfect sense. Love it.
 

Ripley

Contributor
USA Correspondent
Messages
558
Reactions
12 1,512
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Turkey
I said in the past that I don’t think this kind of venture was smart for TAI and it would pull too many resources. For an up and coming company like Uçaksan tho, it makes perfect sense. Love it.
Absolutely. With the level Turkish aviation industry as a whole reached today, it only makes sense.
Also, if I’m not mistaken, back in the day THY (Turkish Airlines) and its subsidiaries were destined to be the designated operator(s) of the HD-19. But THY was not enthusiastic about the whole thing. Maybe that’s what Orko was partially or completely referring to when he said unwillingness for the project.
 

BaburKhan

Committed member
Messages
257
Reactions
4 565
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Germany
What would be the point for Turkiye to have bombers when they already use UAV’s for that matter ? Also developing and maintaining bombers would be too costly.

They are already starting to use Akinci for Air-to-Ground missions. Later when Kizilelma will be ready they will progressively start to phase out the F-16’s for that role.

There is also a stealth bomber currently in development by TAI called TISU.
You can not compare UCAV like Akinci and Kizilelma with a strategic Bomber. They are foreseen for different Tasks. Bombers you need to strike Targets far away from Homeland.

You need for example Ten Kizilelma with two SOM-J Inside, the similar Attack can Performance only One strategic Bomber.

This will be usefull for Turkey in Future to protect it's interest in arabian Sea/Indian Ocean or in Areas like the Straight oof Gibraltar.
 

Huelague

Experienced member
Messages
3,557
Reactions
4 3,809
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
I said in the past that I don’t think this kind of venture was smart for TAI and it would pull too many resources. For an up and coming company like Uçaksan tho, it makes perfect sense. Love it.
After 5 years. TAI will start civil passenger aircraft program.
 

Ripley

Contributor
USA Correspondent
Messages
558
Reactions
12 1,512
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Turkey
After 5 years. TAI will start civil passenger aircraft program.
True. But it’s gonna be a legit short to medium range commercial jet airliner, not a very small twin turboprop plane for short hauls. Mr. Kotil has mentioned about this projects many times.
 

moz68k

Active member
Messages
115
Reactions
18 575
Nation of residence
Switzerland
Nation of origin
Turkey
Hearing TAI talk about this commercial passenger aircraft (that isn't a helicopter) worries me. I think competing in the commercial civil aviation sector against the Airbus-Boeing duopoly is a fool's game. Canadian, Russian, and Chinese (state) firms either almost or literally bankrupted themselves in their attempts.

It's like trying to build a new car brand that only builds ICE vehicles. Chinese brands were never able to build a decent ICE car, but they're on their way to become major players in the EV market. The only time TAI should even consider building a commercial civil passenger aircraft is when a massive paradigm shift occurs in the market, as was the case for the automotive sector. Or the raising of twin-engine ETOPS ranges, saving the perfectly-timed A300.

For instance, the Comac C919 now costs just slightly less than the A320neo or B737 MAX, has less range, is less efficient, doesn't have the planned composite wing, and is filled to the brim with critical western components. China can afford such a project, we cannot. CR929, SSJ, and MC-21 are even more problematic. As for the existing legitimate smaller players: Bombardier divested from the commercial civil aviation sector, and Embraer is struggling to shift E2s (now competing with Airbus).

Besides ongoing projects, I would personally like to see TAI focus on:

- Navalization. Especially in developing a modern Seahawk alternative that massively undercuts Sikorsky.
- Larger military transport jets (JV preferably with Embraer, or at least Antonov). Gain experience with larger jets.
- Following innovations in the sector like CFM's RISE or RR's UltraFan. Anticipate and prototype a next-generation commercial passenger aircraft, try to enter the market only then, and only if financially viable.
- Invest even more heavily in composite aerostructures, become (more) indispensable to the commercial and military aviation supply chain.

I would love to see Turkish Airlines fly a TAI airliner, but the financial and human resource health of TAI should be prioritized over national pride. Overextending ourselves is a recipe for failure.
 
Last edited:

I_Love_F16

Contributor
France Correspondent
Messages
722
Reactions
10 1,513
Nation of residence
France
Nation of origin
France
Hearing TAI talk about this commercial passenger aircraft (that isn't a helicopter) worries me. I think competing in the commercial civil aviation sector against the Airbus-Boeing duopoly is a fool's game. Canadian, Russian, and Chinese (state) firms either almost or literally bankrupted themselves in their attempts.

It's like trying to build a new car brand that only builds ICE vehicles. Chinese brands were never able to build a decent ICE car, but they're on their way to become major players in the EV market. The only time TAI should even consider building a commercial civil passenger aircraft is when a massive paradigm shift occurs in the market, as was the case for the automotive sector.

For instance, the Comac C919 now costs just slightly less than the A320neo or B737 MAX, has less range, is less efficient, doesn't have the planned composite wing, and is filled to the brim with critical western components. China can afford such a project, we cannot. CR929, SSJ, and MC-21 are even more problematic. As for the existing legitimate smaller players: Bombardier divested from the commercial civil aviation sector, and Embraer is struggling to shift E2s (now competing with Airbus).

Besides ongoing projects, I would personally like to see TAI focus on:

- Navalization. Especially in developing a modern Seahawk alternative that massively undercuts Sikorsky.
- Larger military transport jets (JV preferably with Embraer, or at least Antonov)
- Following innovations in the sector like CFM's RISE or RR's UltraFan. Anticipate and prototype a next-generation commercial passenger aircraft, try to enter the market only then, and only if financially viable.
- Invest even more heavily in composite aerostructures, become (more) indispensable to the commercial and military aviation supply chain.

I would love to see Turkish Airlines fly a TAI airliner, but the financial and human resource health of TAI should be prioritized over national pride. Overextending ourselves is a recipe for failure.

Spot on.
 

Spitfire9

Committed member
Messages
279
Reactions
6 358
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
United Kingdom

Menendez’s departure as chair does not guarantee that the United States will now sell Turkey F-16s, but it does open space for a fresh look at the apparent deal on the table. Since negotiations on Sweden’s accession began, it’s been widely assumed—but not openly stated—that the sale of F-16s would be a decisive factor in Turkey’s calculus. For a year, diplomats on both sides took pains to deny the two issues were linked. However, Erdoğan abandoned all pretext on September 26, stating that “if they [the United States] keep their promises, our parliament will keep its own promise as well.” In a statement at the Vilnius summit, Turkey has committed to sending Sweden’s accession to parliament and working to ensure its ratification.

If Turkiye does not approve Sweden joining NATO, it will not get an F-16 deal. If it does, a deal may still not get approved by the US Congress. However, I remember reading that if Congress blocks a proposal by the president, that can be challenged. If I remember correctly, 2/3 of the members (perhaps just the senators?) would have to be opposed to the president's proposal in order to defeat it. On that basis I guess the F-16 deal would probably go through. There are other issues apart from Sweden involved, so nothing is certain.
 

boredaf

Contributor
Messages
964
Solutions
1
Reactions
11 2,716
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
Navalization. Especially in developing a modern Seahawk alternative that massively undercuts Sikorsky.
- Larger military transport jets (JV preferably with Embraer, or at least Antonov). Gain experience with larger jets.
I think these two points are extremely crucial for our military aviation. A large military transport plane that we can configure for other purposes, like maritime patrol or AEW&C or even a bomber for our larger missiles, would be indispensable for us.

And being able to produce our own naval helicopters would not only get rid of one of our worst dependencies but also open up a significant market for us.
 

Quasar

Contributor
The Post Deleter
Messages
565
Reactions
34 2,554
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
ok in relation to our ambitious plans for our Navy it seems that in addition to unmaned AEW&Cs ''eventually'' in the ''future'' a dedicated E2 Hawk eye type AEW&C will be a need especially for Navy or even may be for the Air force

1698921651280.png


1698923130277.png
 
Last edited:

Sanchez

Experienced member
Moderator
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Diplomat
Messages
1,634
Reactions
56 7,413
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Suffice to say, that will be left to drones for the navy. Something like a Merlin Crowsnest could also be interesting for T929 in the future.
 

Quasar

Contributor
The Post Deleter
Messages
565
Reactions
34 2,554
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
-Anadolu is an alreadry existing platform not the future
- agreed that unmaned AEW&Cs and T929 are most feasible soluıtions

However, it also doest mean that the most feasible solutions that you have now will be also satisfactory solutions for your future requirements or problems, for that very reason I am not directly throwing E2 type to trash can yet and I belive it is worth studying
 
Last edited:

Sanchez

Experienced member
Moderator
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Diplomat
Messages
1,634
Reactions
56 7,413
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
E-2D is the best platform that can be at that size, it’s venerable. Just think that currently we have no need for such a design on our ships and possibly will never have. There’s a reason why the French just went ahead and bought E-2s for their own carriers and will now replace them with E-2Ds.

For land based designs, sky is the limit.
 

Afif

Experienced member
Moderator
Bangladesh Correspondent
DefenceHub Diplomat
Bangladesh Moderator
Messages
3,954
Reactions
64 7,182
Nation of residence
Bangladesh
Nation of origin
Bangladesh

The 'technical' part of Turkey's F-16 Block 70 procurement is complete​



1698947357311.png


Technical negotiations between Turkey and the USA regarding Turkey's procurement of F-16 Block 70 fighter jets have been completed. Ministry of National Defense sources made the statement.

In the statement made on the subject by the sources of the Ministry of National Defense, it was stated that the technical meetings of the delegations were completed and the procedures in the USA were expected to be completed. Sources said, “We want this process to be concluded positively and quickly as soon as possible. "We express once again that this issue should not be subject to any conditions," he said.

Turkey's procurement of F-16 Block 70 fighter jets includes 40 new F-16 fighter jets and the upgrade of 79 of the existing F-16s to the Block 70 level. Additionally, it is claimed that the scope of supply includes a large number of spare parts and ammunition.

According to Reuters, the approximate cost of the supply is 20 billion dollars. However, defense industry researchers evaluate that the $20 billion claim is not very realistic.

F-16 Block 70 Viper Fighter Aircraft

1698947406672.png


Jets that have undergone F-16 Block 70/72 modernization are generally classified as 4++ generation, as they will be subject to hardware and structural upgrades compared to other F-16s. The most important step in Viper modernization is the replacement of the existing radar system with the APG-83 Active Phased Array (AESA) radar produced by Northrop Grumman.

With the integration of the APG-83 radar, the situational awareness of F-16s will increase significantly.

In addition, in F-16 Block 70/72; There will be a 6” x 8” CPD (high resolution screen), Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (GCAS) and more technological weapon stations that enable more effective use of the AESA radar and control of pod data.

In addition, new ammunition and missile systems, especially AGM-88E, will be integrated into the aircraft. New generation electronic warfare equipment, the IRST pod and new targeting pods will be available for use on the aircraft.




Note- Looks like they are going through with the purchase. Unfortunately, if it is realized then a significant portion of Turkish air force will continue to depend on American goodwill well into the late 2030.
Unless USA allow Turkey to integrate its indeginous weapons and manufacture spare parts. Which seems very unlikely with F-16 Block 70 in the current context.

Let's hope instead of modernizing 79 old F-16s to block 70 configeration, they can also be upgraded with Ozgur program like other F-16s in the fleet.

@Sanchez @Yasar @Kartal1 et al.
 

Maximilien Robespierre

Committed member
Messages
190
Reactions
1 220
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey

The 'technical' part of Turkey's F-16 Block 70 procurement is complete​



View attachment 62555

Technical negotiations between Turkey and the USA regarding Turkey's procurement of F-16 Block 70 fighter jets have been completed. Ministry of National Defense sources made the statement.

In the statement made on the subject by the sources of the Ministry of National Defense, it was stated that the technical meetings of the delegations were completed and the procedures in the USA were expected to be completed. Sources said, “We want this process to be concluded positively and quickly as soon as possible. "We express once again that this issue should not be subject to any conditions," he said.

Turkey's procurement of F-16 Block 70 fighter jets includes 40 new F-16 fighter jets and the upgrade of 79 of the existing F-16s to the Block 70 level. Additionally, it is claimed that the scope of supply includes a large number of spare parts and ammunition.

According to Reuters, the approximate cost of the supply is 20 billion dollars. However, defense industry researchers evaluate that the $20 billion claim is not very realistic.

F-16 Block 70 Viper Fighter Aircraft

View attachment 62556

Jets that have undergone F-16 Block 70/72 modernization are generally classified as 4++ generation, as they will be subject to hardware and structural upgrades compared to other F-16s. The most important step in Viper modernization is the replacement of the existing radar system with the APG-83 Active Phased Array (AESA) radar produced by Northrop Grumman.

With the integration of the APG-83 radar, the situational awareness of F-16s will increase significantly.

In addition, in F-16 Block 70/72; There will be a 6” x 8” CPD (high resolution screen), Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (GCAS) and more technological weapon stations that enable more effective use of the AESA radar and control of pod data.

In addition, new ammunition and missile systems, especially AGM-88E, will be integrated into the aircraft. New generation electronic warfare equipment, the IRST pod and new targeting pods will be available for use on the aircraft.




Note- Looks like they are going through with the purchase. Unfortunately, if it is realized then a significant portion of Turkish air force will continue to depend on American goodwill well into the late 2030.
Unless USA allow Turkey to integrate its indeginous weapons and manufacture spare parts. Which seems very unlikely with F-16 Block 70 in the current context.

Let's hope instead of modernizing 79 old F-16s to block 70 configeration, they can also be upgraded with Ozgur program like other F-16s in the fleet.

@Sanchez @Yasar @Kartal1 et al.
We don't even have the MURAD radar yet how do you expect us to modernize everything with ozgur?
 

Afif

Experienced member
Moderator
Bangladesh Correspondent
DefenceHub Diplomat
Bangladesh Moderator
Messages
3,954
Reactions
64 7,182
Nation of residence
Bangladesh
Nation of origin
Bangladesh
We don't even have the MURAD radar yet how do you expect us to modernize everything with ozgur?

In time of course, SSB said other F16 blocks in the fleet can be upgraded with Ozgur. So I am taking their word for it.
 

Maximilien Robespierre

Committed member
Messages
190
Reactions
1 220
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Don't be surprised if the unready Özgür upgrade achieves readiness faster than the ready Viper upgrade. We are dealing with the US here.
I rather have a finished and matured project like Block 70, It will take time for özgür program to mature, We need these jets ASAP we already blown our foot with F35 procurement.
 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom