TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

godel44

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Interesting language on the piece.

This would be the first time it came out that Turkey had an official request of EF-2000s.
Really getting tired of all the fighter purchase initiatives that are sure to be rejected. We have 200+ well-maintained 4th generation fighters. That is more than almost anyone. The Ozgur modernization program is in progress and will update almost all of the fleet to Viper level by 2030. That ought to be enough. Any new jets we buy won't come much earlier than 2030, especially if manufactured by slow Europeans.

I can understand checking possibilities in general terms but when you constantly ask for fighters, you create a perception of weakness and people talk about Turkey's "aging fleet." When surrounded by irrational actors as we are, perceptions matter.
 

Heartbang

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but when you constantly ask for fighters, you create a perception of weakness and people talk about Turkey's "aging fleet." When surrounded by irrational actors as we are, perceptions matter.
There's merit to feigning weakness when you're strong. Ask Sun Tzu.
 

boredaf

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At some point, I would love for someone high up in the government to come out and say something like "We need aircrafts, and since our "allies" deny us what we need for our country's security and proper continuation of our commitment to NATO, we decided to take a look at what China has to offer. Whether it is J-10 for short term solution or FC-31 for a longer term solution to work with our own fifth generation fighter, we have been left with no other choice but to explore our options. Our "allies" that sold weapons of different importance to *insert countries that committed war crimes with Western weapons here* keep grandstanding over our national security to score political points and unfortunately that is something we no longer have the luxury to allow.

Throw the ball in their court and let the chips fall where they may. They need to be reminded that an alliance works both ways, and countries that happily sell weapons to other problematic countries without any problem has to be reminded of who we are and why we are important. While I don't believe we would actually buy Chinese aircraft, nor could we afford the sever all our ties with the West, neither could they allow us to get closer to Chinese while also preparing for a confrontation with them.
 

godel44

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There's merit to feigning weakness when you're strong. Ask Sun Tzu.
That's something that occurred to me as well. Maybe they don't actually want to buy aircraft but they are putting the idea forward as a focus point for all the anti-Turkish villainous energy that would otherwise go toward something more damaging. But still, projecting military weakness is not a good thing in Middle East. We could defeat any undeterred adversary in this neighborhood but it would cost us. Sun Tzu also said it's best to win without fighting.
 

boredaf

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If there are 200 serviceable jets (that will remain serviceable for several more years), what is the fuss about? Will it be a problem if KAAN does not enter service for another 10 years and 200 x F-16 can be replaced 2034-2044? The ones updated in the modernisation programme will not need retiring for a long time, will they?
The problem is not our F-16s, even though they are ageing, Özgür program should take care of that. The problem is our F-4 fleet, which is why we are after 40 F-16s or EF-2000s, to replace them. While we could, in theory, do fine without them, it isn't ideal so it would be better if we don't have to test that theory.
 

Lool

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At some point, I would love for someone high up in the government to come out and say something like "We need aircrafts, and since our "allies" deny us what we need for our country's security and proper continuation of our commitment to NATO, we decided to take a look at what China has to offer. Whether it is J-10 for short term solution or FC-31 for a longer term solution to work with our own fifth generation fighter, we have been left with no other choice but to explore our options. Our "allies" that sold weapons of different importance to *insert countries that committed war crimes with Western weapons here* keep grandstanding over our national security to score political points and unfortunately that is something we no longer have the luxury to allow.

Throw the ball in their court and let the chips fall where they may. They need to be reminded that an alliance works both ways, and countries that happily sell weapons to other problematic countries without any problem has to be reminded of who we are and why we are important. While I don't believe we would actually buy Chinese aircraft, nor could we afford the sever all our ties with the West, neither could they allow us to get closer to Chinese while also preparing for a confrontation with them.
This is exactly what happened with the S400s and you already saw the result. Turkey's excuse for the S400 is that they begged the West for 10 years and yet no one wanted to give them the weapons; thus, they resorted to Russia

As long as power remians within the Western sphere of influence, the narrative will always be skewed to fit their demands and actions and that is why if Turkey bought Russian or Chinese alternatives, then it would be akin to digging your own grave
 
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uçuyorum

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This is exactly what happened with the S400s and you already saw the result

As long as power remians within the Western sphere of influence, the narrative will always be skewed to fit their demands and actions and that is why if Turkey bought Russian or Chinese alternatives, then it would be akin to digging your own grave
A move like this wouldn't come without us basically becoming china's vassal and abandon west entirely. Extremely stupid but I can't rule it out sadly
 

boredaf

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This is exactly what happened with the S400s and you already saw the result

As long as power remians within the Western sphere of influence, the narrative will always be skewed to fit their demands and actions and that is why if Turkey bought Russian or Chinese alternatives, then it would be akin to digging your own grave
We asked for a ToT when we wanted to buy Patriots, I don't think Raytheon ever given ToT when they sell Patriots. This is a simple purchase being blocked for shiggles while every other country and their nan keeps getting whatever they want. If we want to be treated fairly, we have to be willing to take a risk. While I am normally much more risk averse and think we have to keep our ties to the West, at some point we have to stop bending the knee and see if they are really willing to risk Mediterranean not being a NATO lake.
 

TR_123456

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At some point, I would love for someone high up in the government to come out and say something like "We need aircrafts, and since our "allies" deny us what we need for our country's security and proper continuation of our commitment to NATO, we decided to take a look at what China has to offer. Whether it is J-10 for short term solution or FC-31 for a longer term solution to work with our own fifth generation fighter, we have been left with no other choice but to explore our options. Our "allies" that sold weapons of different importance to *insert countries that committed war crimes with Western weapons here* keep grandstanding over our national security to score political points and unfortunately that is something we no longer have the luxury to allow.

Throw the ball in their court and let the chips fall where they may. They need to be reminded that an alliance works both ways, and countries that happily sell weapons to other problematic countries without any problem has to be reminded of who we are and why we are important. While I don't believe we would actually buy Chinese aircraft, nor could we afford the sever all our ties with the West, neither could they allow us to get closer to Chinese while also preparing for a confrontation with them.
You know by now that we dont need any new fighter jets until KAAN,right?
 

boredaf

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You know by now that we dont need any new fighter jets until KAAN,right?
In theory, sure, between our F-16s and Özgür and our various drones, we should be more than covered. But I'm not sure whether that would be the case in practice as well.
 

TR_123456

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In theory, sure, between our F-16s and Özgür and our various drones, we should be more than covered. But I'm not sure if whether that would be the case in practice as well.
Why not,name a situation in which we would need new Fighter jets?
If we didnt have a mature defence industry which can compensate for the lack of fighter jets like Pakistan,Egypt,Greece etc you would be right but we are not such a country.
 

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Projections were adjusted below 100 for 2023, that 156 figure is their target, which they will not meet this year. And it *does* matter how many Anka-3 or Kızıelma we have because Greece is not going to get 100 F-35s. And they are not even going to get all of their F-35s all at once. So, it matters a lot if we can get something with decent stealth characteristics in meaningful numbers before then.

And while it is one of the best fighters out there, it is not god. A dozen or so F-35s are not going to win a hypothetical war people, calm the fuck down.

I would like to add one FACT which is very important!
Last year 2022 on UK news there were documentary video showing how UK F-35 pilot goes to plane and he try start ON the systems.
As he did not expected but F35 fighter did NOT start and was not Able to used.
Result was shown on documentary video. Pilot was shocked, issue was that pilot have OWN KEY but there are PAIR KEY. Both must be validated in order to use the F35.
So what happened is that UK pilot OWN key is validated OK by system, which did connected to the network and try to get Second Pair key validation which failed. This second pair is own by usa military organization.

Conclusion was that F35 need both keys to run. If usa do not approve then F35 fighter will stay on runway..............


Why I explain above? Any country need all time usa approval. Second key is property of usa. So what ever greece buy it is half owned and do not full control to use it
 

Ecderha

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Really getting tired of all the fighter purchase initiatives that are sure to be rejected. We have 200+ well-maintained 4th generation fighters. That is more than almost anyone. The Ozgur modernization program is in progress and will update almost all of the fleet to Viper level by 2030. That ought to be enough. Any new jets we buy won't come much earlier than 2030, especially if manufactured by slow Europeans.

I can understand checking possibilities in general terms but when you constantly ask for fighters, you create a perception of weakness and people talk about Turkey's "aging fleet." When surrounded by irrational actors as we are, perceptions matter.
It is political Approach/Behavior. usa all time doing shit play-> result is all time same.
- Embargo
- Twisting hands asking for more from Turkiye.Which do not have any ending, they ask and ask more
-Delay, Delay of the Delay, which ends to unknown. Mean nothing received
-Playing dumb. Like I understood today that Turkiye is asking for this and that, I promise to check this matter and fix this issue. They know vary well about any topics. Just playing dumb and give you empty words. Which lead to nothing. Never happened agreement.
-It is going and going ....................................

Ball is on usa side. They need to provide first then Turkiye need to received. Turkiye have to check the provided THING and if it is what Turkiye wanted and it is work as expected then Turkiye should provide back what was agreed with usa.
usa impose this behavior, so they will get it. There is no other way ANY MORE
etc.
 

Spitfire9

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In theory, sure, between our F-16s and Özgür and our various drones, we should be more than covered. But I'm not sure whether that would be the case in practice as well.
The 40 x new F-16 can come through despite Congress voting against it, I think. I believe there is a procedure in the US whereby if a proposal which comes from the president does not get majority support (in the Senate?), the president can 'appeal' and the Senate? then needs a 2/3 majority against the presidential proposal to stop it.

Hope I got that right!
 

Sanchez

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The 40 x new F-16 can come through despite Congress voting against it, I think. I believe there is a procedure in the US whereby if a proposal which comes from the president does not get majority support (in the Senate?), the president can 'appeal' and the Senate? then needs a 2/3 majority against the presidential proposal to stop it.

Hope I got that right!
No US president will use that overpowering move just before entering an election cycle for Turkey. Especially when the proposal in question has bipartisan support from both aisles.
 

Ecderha

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The 40 x new F-16 can come through despite Congress voting against it, I think. I believe there is a procedure in the US whereby if a proposal which comes from the president does not get majority support (in the Senate?), the president can 'appeal' and the Senate? then needs a 2/3 majority against the presidential proposal to stop it.

Hope I got that right!

Are you forgetting CAATSA on Turkiye!?
There are official sanction law passed via congress and signed by usa president.
This is still ACTIVE. It include many many chapters in detail describing that Turkiye can not get many things, especially military!

So it is not about some kind of small amount like you said 40x. There is LAW forbidding this.

What I am saying is that congress and president voted and signed so it is legally enforced.
Mean NO GO
 

Bozan

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The 40 x new F-16 can come through despite Congress voting against it, I think. I believe there is a procedure in the US whereby if a proposal which comes from the president does not get majority support (in the Senate?), the president can 'appeal' and the Senate? then needs a 2/3 majority against the presidential proposal to stop it.

Hope I got that right!
Seems like it won't if they are trying to buy 40 eurofighters

 

Sanchez

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MoD Güler:
"I am not in favor of buying the F-35. There is a different debate in the US about whether they should switch to another aircraft. We want to buy the Eurofighter, a very effective aircraft, Germany objects. Britain and Spain say 'we will solve it'. We are planning to buy 40 Eurofighter fighter jets from the UK and Spain."
"KAAN will hopefully take flight at the end of this year."

Seems like it won't if they are trying to buy 40 eurofighters
Not necessarily. This could be an attempt to mislead or hedging the bet as well. Too early to say anything.
 
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