TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Sanchez]

I see Hurjet as a trainer for KAAN nothing more. Considering it is not stealthy at all just like F-16. We have stealthy ANKA III and KAAN in a 6th gen configuration for contested airspace in Aegean. And Akinci for cheap yet formidable surveillance and ground attack roles with SDBs in Syria and Iraq which are currently not contested airspaces. I fail to see how Hurjet, F-16, Akinci or even Kizilelma could possibly survive against Greek F-35s.

There are other birds in the sky other than Greek F-35s. Comparatively low cost manned platforms will be here for years to come.

 

[boredaf]

There are other birds in the sky other than Greek F-35s. Comparatively low cost manned platforms will be here for years to come.

Not to mention, with all the delays and reduced production estimates (albeit still close to 100) of F-35, we're probably going to have many more Anka-3 and/or Kızılelma, powered by TF-6000 before they get their handful of F-35s.

 

[infrared]

Not to mention, with all the delays and reduced production estimates (albeit still close to 100) of F-35, we're probably going to have many more Anka-3 and/or Kızılelma, powered by TF-6000 before they get their handful of F-35s.

Fyi 156 is the target production rate for 2023. The year end number was 142 for 2021. And production lines are technically still in LRIP.

It doesn't matter how many anka3 or Kızılelma you have against f35.

 

[boredaf]

Fyi 156 is the target production rate for 2023. The year end number was 142 for 2021. And production lines are technically still in LRIP.

It doesn't matter how many anka3 or Kızılelma you have against f35.

Projections were adjusted below 100 for 2023, that 156 figure is their target, which they will not meet this year. And it *does* matter how many Anka-3 or Kızıelma we have because Greece is not going to get 100 F-35s. And they are not even going to get all of their F-35s all at once. So, it matters a lot if we can get something with decent stealth characteristics in meaningful numbers before then.

And while it is one of the best fighters out there, it is not god. A dozen or so F-35s are not going to win a hypothetical war people, calm the fuck down.

 

[Zafer]

Fyi 156 is the target production rate for 2023. The year end number was 142 for 2021. And production lines are technically still in LRIP.

It doesn't matter how many anka3 or Kızılelma you have against f35.

Because F35 can kill itself without help

 

[infrared]

Projections were adjusted below 100 for 2023, that 156 figure is their target, which they will not meet this year. And it *does* matter how many Anka-3 or Kızıelma we have because Greece is not going to get 100 F-35s. And they are not even going to get all of their F-35s all at once. So, it matters a lot if we can get something with decent stealth characteristics in meaningful numbers before then.

And while it is one of the best fighters out there, it is not god. A dozen or so F-35s are not going to win a hypothetical war people, calm the fuck down.

Sorry, my bad. F35 production rate will actually go even lower. Lockmart is nowhere near as good as TUSAŞ when it comes to production line optimization.

Also, Anka and Kızılelma can saturate airspace and combine their radars to beat f35. Our systems are the best in the world.

 

[Spitfire9]

Sorry, my bad. F35 production rate will actually go even lower. Lockmart is nowhere near as good as TUSAŞ when it comes to production line optimization.

'Lockheed Martin has had to delay again the delivery of Technology Refresh 3 (TR-3)-standard F-35 Lightning II combat aircraft to international customers as it looks to finalise software developments.

The manufacturer announced the move on 6 September, saying that TR-2 configuration aircraft will continue to be delivered as planned.'

Source: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/...-35-deliveries-further-because-of-tr-3-issues

It sounds more like development delays to me.

 

[infrared]

'Lockheed Martin has had to delay again the delivery of Technology Refresh 3 (TR-3)-standard F-35 Lightning II combat aircraft to international customers as it looks to finalise software developments.

The manufacturer announced the move on 6 September, saying that TR-2 configuration aircraft will continue to be delivered as planned.'

Source: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/...-35-deliveries-further-because-of-tr-3-issues

It sounds more like development delays to me.

Guys, if you want to believe that Lockmart's temporary delays will cause Greece get their F35s after TEI/Tusas/Baykar will test and manufacture TF6000/Anka3/Kizilelma in high numbers, believe it. But I would like to remind you that:

- Even PD170 has only recently been tested on Aksungur at 30k feet,
- Hence, even PD170 is still not used in serial production (on Aksungur),
- TS1400 tests will continue for several more years before used on Gokbey in serial production,
- Anka3 that was supposed to fly on May has still not flown,
- For some reason (probably uncertain engine supply) Kizilelma's test flights have stopped,
- The very 1st prototype of TF6000 has not even been ignited.

I understand that most of you come here to hear happy news only, but reality does not look that bright. I wish zero criticism only to our enemies.

Anyway, I will not discuss any further. I hope I turn out to be pessimistic instead of realistic.

 

[boredaf]

Sorry, my bad. F35 production rate will actually go even lower. Lockmart is nowhere near as good as TUSAŞ when it comes to production line optimization.

Also, Anka and Kızılelma can saturate airspace and combine their radars to beat f35. Our systems are the best in the world.

First of all, you need to pipe down on the attitude lad and work on your reading comprehension because I didn't say any of what your ridiculous comment suggests. You gave false information, I corrected you, that's it.

Second of all, it doesn't matter how many Lockheed can make in a year in this context. They are not solely producing and delivering to Greece. So far, deliveries are scheduled for 2028, but they are not going to get all 20 of their F-35s all at once. So, we don't have to beat the production rate of Lockheed Martin, we just have to beat their delivery schedule to Greece. And since drones are much easier to build, even complicated ones like Anka-3 or KE, it isn't impossible, it is hard of course but it is doable if the will and funding is there.

Third, you seem to think that having F-35s will suddenly make Greece the kings of the sky against us, but it is not that simple. It is one of the best planes out there, if not the best, but it is neither infallible nor unbeatable. That is why it is important to have assets that can help against them, instead of going "oh no, they have F35s we should roll over and show our bellies!!1!1" and war in general is more complicated than that. Even US itself doesn't believe their F35s are these invincible gods in the sky, otherwise Syria would've gone very differently, for one simple example, and their own predictions against a war with China wouldn't have included them losing fuck ton of planes to get control of the airspace. A war between Turkey and Greece, (without any outside interference which is of course impossible) wouldn't be decided by 20 planes, no matter how good they are.

 

[Afif]

Hellenic air force will need 75-100 F-35s to put up an effective fight against TurAF. USA may also export its collaborative combat aircrafts to complement allied F-35s. But all of these Greece probbaly cannot afford.

 

[Samba]

I am against buying new F-16s, a bit modernizing what we have is one thing but they are not good investments for the future IMHO. They have one of the biggest RCS among NATO 4th gen jet fighters. 4 times the Rafale and Eurofighter.

I would rather lower the political tensions until we have enough KAANs as mini AWACS command centers with BURFIS, each controlling several American Raider level perfected stealth ANKA-3s as missile mules from 50 km behind. Our current concept is similar, it relies on E-7ts and F-16s, alas they would be easy prey for Greece, considering very long range of Meteor. Both for air superiority and deep strike operations I believe this combination could best Greek, Israeli etc. F-35s. IF stealth part is done right.

And Akinci with Murad AESA (SAR) for peacetime routine anti terror, mobile air radar patrolling operations. I am also very skeptical about Kizilelma AI efforts. Kizilelma doesn't have 360 sensors to be aware of it's surroundings. And 360 AESA isn't something it's power plant can handle. Perhaps 3D DAS with flawless AI coding could be good enough to avoid incoming meteors but I highly doubt that.

I think America is working on a similar concept called loyal-wingman. Cheap sacrificial yet stealthy drones go first in swarms and keep manned fighter jet as far as possible from the actual fight.
View attachment 62948
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...for-air-force-loyal-wingman-drone-coming-soon

Even US Air Force is considering to buy f16s for cost efficiency...

 

[Sanchez]

Interesting language on the piece.

Erdogan will probably ask Scholz at a meeting in Berlin on Friday to lift a block on the sale of the fighter planes he needs to refresh an aging airforce, according to Turkish officials familiar with the matter.

This would be the first time it came out that Turkey had an official request of EF-2000s.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1725136873754865702

 

[Spitfire9]

The time to consider Eurofighter has passed, I think. I recall it was considered many years ago but F-35 was selected. If Germany will not agree to KSA buying it (the murder of the journalist at the consulate/embassy + bombing in Yemen), what chance is there of the current German government agreeing to Eurofighter supply to Turkiye? If F-16 does come off the rails, Turkiye will have to wait wait for KAAN, won't it, or buy something else?

 

[Zafer]

Jet engine development efforts need to be maximized, everything else is marginally important.

 

[godel44]

Interesting language on the piece.

This would be the first time it came out that Turkey had an official request of EF-2000s.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1725136873754865702

Really getting tired of all the fighter purchase initiatives that are sure to be rejected. We have 200+ well-maintained 4th generation fighters. That is more than almost anyone. The Ozgur modernization program is in progress and will update almost all of the fleet to Viper level by 2030. That ought to be enough. Any new jets we buy won't come much earlier than 2030, especially if manufactured by slow Europeans.

I can understand checking possibilities in general terms but when you constantly ask for fighters, you create a perception of weakness and people talk about Turkey's "aging fleet." When surrounded by irrational actors as we are, perceptions matter.

 

[Heartbang]

but when you constantly ask for fighters, you create a perception of weakness and people talk about Turkey's "aging fleet." When surrounded by irrational actors as we are, perceptions matter.

There's merit to feigning weakness when you're strong. Ask Sun Tzu.

 

[Afif]

There's merit to feigning weakness when you're strong. Ask Sun Tzu.

Sun Tzu didn't live in Middle East.

 

[boredaf]

At some point, I would love for someone high up in the government to come out and say something like "We need aircrafts, and since our "allies" deny us what we need for our country's security and proper continuation of our commitment to NATO, we decided to take a look at what China has to offer. Whether it is J-10 for short term solution or FC-31 for a longer term solution to work with our own fifth generation fighter, we have been left with no other choice but to explore our options. Our "allies" that sold weapons of different importance to *insert countries that committed war crimes with Western weapons here* keep grandstanding over our national security to score political points and unfortunately that is something we no longer have the luxury to allow.

Throw the ball in their court and let the chips fall where they may. They need to be reminded that an alliance works both ways, and countries that happily sell weapons to other problematic countries without any problem has to be reminded of who we are and why we are important. While I don't believe we would actually buy Chinese aircraft, nor could we afford the sever all our ties with the West, neither could they allow us to get closer to Chinese while also preparing for a confrontation with them.

 

[godel44]

There's merit to feigning weakness when you're strong. Ask Sun Tzu.

That's something that occurred to me as well. Maybe they don't actually want to buy aircraft but they are putting the idea forward as a focus point for all the anti-Turkish villainous energy that would otherwise go toward something more damaging. But still, projecting military weakness is not a good thing in Middle East. We could defeat any undeterred adversary in this neighborhood but it would cost us. Sun Tzu also said it's best to win without fighting.

 

[boredaf]

If there are 200 serviceable jets (that will remain serviceable for several more years), what is the fuss about? Will it be a problem if KAAN does not enter service for another 10 years and 200 x F-16 can be replaced 2034-2044? The ones updated in the modernisation programme will not need retiring for a long time, will they?

The problem is not our F-16s, even though they are ageing, Özgür program should take care of that. The problem is our F-4 fleet, which is why we are after 40 F-16s or EF-2000s, to replace them. While we could, in theory, do fine without them, it isn't ideal so it would be better if we don't have to test that theory.