TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

uçuyorum

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If we make KAAN engine, it will be stronger than the engine that powers F16. Naturally instead of two TF10k, we could make like a single engine 4.5gen F16 successor after several years after KAAN is in serial production using parts from both Özgür and KAAN because KAAN will be seriously expensive to buy large numbers, and it could even be like a carrier capable fighter. Something in the middle of F16 and F35C
 

Zafer

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Actually, what I'm talking about is not starting a completely new jet project. Developing the Hürjet program through two airframes. One is AJT focused and the other is a fighter jet with F-16 B70 level operational capability and higher lift capacity. If it is designed with the same engine /as single and dual engine variants/, perhaps 90/95% common logistics, and again almost entirely common avionics infrastructure, maybe something similar to the AESA suit that will be included in KAAN, can be integrated, thanks to higher power. If we had a 30,000 lb engine ready for KAAN, maybe things would be easier.

I think the problem may be financing the development of this aircraft, but I am not yet convinced that this will create an unbearable additional labor burden. Because TAI officials themselves have created many speculations on the possibility of Hurjet fork many times before, one of which is Hürjet Naval. And I'm sure they have a serious analysis catalog and various test designs on this subject.

Of course, I am aware that I am oversimplifying the issue for making it debatable. What I am basically talking about is, integrate the avionics mechanical systems you developed for MMU and Hurjet into a third mainframe in a different package. Not only in terms of development, but the real headache is, let's say you developed such a prototype, even production planning for it is a cost and serious headache in itself, lets aside test process.

How long will it take to develop this aircraft? 10-12 years? Then there is no such option. We can turn our entire concentration to F-16 modernization. 3-4 years? Then there may be an option that can catch the ready purchase schedule.

How much does the development cost? +10 billion dollars? It is very expensive, when you add this cost to the unit production cost you almost reach the MMU cost. A few billion dollars? It can definitely be said that the unit cost of the aircraft to be produced, including development, will still be below the purchased jet cost.

You can also offer this platform to foreign markets without asking anyone. One of the popular topics on Twitter is Argentina and the Latino market. Small African countries in the Sahel are moving towards confederation and so more solid army structures. Arms embargoes on some of the countries we support are being lifted or relaxed. In defense, the number of countries that we have strategic partners with increasingly stronger financing tools, such as Malaysia, or at least for which we are critical solution partners, is increasing.

It is forbidden to buy Russian planes, there is great pressure, buyers are canceling their contracts. However, the same group of countries are under the strict control of the USA and the states in its orbit regarding arms sales. Consider that Egypt still not have mid-range air-to-air missiles. To achieve this, Algeria relied heavily on Russian logistics and so on...

Anyway, I don't want to make it too long. The difficulties of this issue are great, I have no objection. But it promises a high risk-return ratio on return side. And it seems as if conditions will force us to do this at some point even if forget all these export possibilities. If we're heading there, I'm not a fan of wasting time.
No engine no plane, yes engine plenty plane.

We can only dream of making fighters around the engines we make, and the only engine we hope to get in a few year is the TF10k.

EDIT: Having said that, I believe we can make the TF35k engine far earlier than people speculate.
 
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Kartal1

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Actually, what I'm talking about is not starting a completely new jet project. Developing the Hürjet program through two airframes. One is AJT focused and the other is a fighter jet with F-16 B70 level operational capability and higher lift capacity. If it is designed with the same engine /as single and dual engine variants/, perhaps 90/95% common logistics, and again almost entirely common avionics infrastructure, maybe something similar to the AESA suit that will be included in KAAN, can be integrated, thanks to higher power. If we had a 30,000 lb engine ready for KAAN, maybe things would be easier.

I think the problem may be financing the development of this aircraft, but I am not yet convinced that this will create an unbearable additional labor burden. Because TAI officials themselves have created many speculations on the possibility of Hurjet fork many times before, one of which is Hürjet Naval. And I'm sure they have a serious analysis catalog and various test designs on this subject.

Of course, I am aware that I am oversimplifying the issue for making it debatable. What I am basically talking about is, integrate the avionics mechanical systems you developed for MMU and Hurjet into a third mainframe in a different package. Not only in terms of development, but the real headache is, let's say you developed such a prototype, even production planning for it is a cost and serious headache in itself, lets aside test process.

How long will it take to develop this aircraft? 10-12 years? Then there is no such option. We can turn our entire concentration to F-16 modernization. 3-4 years? Then there may be an option that can catch the ready purchase schedule.

How much does the development cost? +10 billion dollars? It is very expensive, when you add this cost to the unit production cost you almost reach the MMU cost. A few billion dollars? It can definitely be said that the unit cost of the aircraft to be produced, including development, will still be below the purchased jet cost.

You can also offer this platform to foreign markets without asking anyone. One of the popular topics on Twitter is Argentina and the Latino market. Small African countries in the Sahel are moving towards confederation and so more solid army structures. Arms embargoes on some of the countries we support are being lifted or relaxed. In defense, the number of countries that we have strategic partners with increasingly stronger financing tools, such as Malaysia, or at least for which we are critical solution partners, is increasing.

It is forbidden to buy Russian planes, there is great pressure, buyers are canceling their contracts. However, the same group of countries are under the strict control of the USA and the states in its orbit regarding arms sales. Consider that Egypt still not have mid-range air-to-air missiles. To achieve this, Algeria relied heavily on Russian logistics and so on...

Anyway, I don't want to make it too long. The difficulties of this issue are great, I have no objection. But it promises a high risk-return ratio on return side. And it seems as if conditions will force us to do this at some point even if forget all these export possibilities. If we're heading there, I'm not a fan of wasting time.
Why would we develop a third platform for this while we have KAAN which is supposed to fly this year? If we need something similar to F-16 performance why wouldn't we use a crippled version of KAAN without some of its 5th Gen capabilities? Also isn't that the logic behind the first batch which will be delivered with F110 engines after all?

Also I think the numbers of our multirole F-16s is more than enough for most of the cases. Our only problem would only be lack of air superiority fighter that will supposedly be filled with a Eurofighter purchase and a stealth deep strike capability which will be gained with Anka 3/4.
 

uçuyorum

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Why would we develop a third platform for this while we have KAAN which is supposed to fly this year? If we need something similar to F-16 performance why wouldn't we use a crippled version of KAAN without some of its 5th Gen capabilities? Also isn't that the logic behind the first batch which will be delivered with F110 engines after all?

Also I think the numbers of our multirole F-16s is more than enough for most of the cases. Our only problem would only be lack of air superiority fighter that will supposedly be filled with a Eurofighter purchase and a stealth deep strike capability which will be gained with Anka 3/4.
Using military thrust, it would cost 16000-20000$ (8000 -10000 galon for F22 ) an hour just for KAAN'S fuel. Multiply that by 100 planes and 200 hours of flight each year and that's 320 million usd
 

Aqerdf

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Unpopular thinking:

Our Air Force doesn't needed urgent advanced jet trainers, yes ? They only talk about Hürjet when there is a talk about Turkish Stars (as NF-5 replacement), Lead-in Fighter Training (F-5 2000 replacement) or Air Policing (F-5 2000 replacement).. They're happy with their modernised T-38M Arı's for now...


Our Armed Forces also doesn't urgently needed ATAK-2's. Hence they're giving priority to 11.5+ tonne General Purpose Helicopter Development and T-629 Development.

So as it looks like we don't need Hürjet as an Advanced Trainer at least to 2030s. Like Hürkuş situation (we have KT-1T so there is no need to buy for new trainer aircraft but TAİ needs to build it anyway because of gaining more experience for creating things from scratch).


What i was trying to say is, Hürjet, as an advanced jet trainer, is almost ready (4 years at most ?). Maybe we can pursue another project, like TEBDF. Like jumping from ATAK-II to T-629 & 11.5+ tonne General Purpose Helicopter Development Projects.

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Decrased Kaan (something like F-15C / EX) is too big to powering it with our own solutions, in this decade. And those mentioned crisis scenarios contains ''no F110 engine for TR'' generally. If we can secure F110s without anxiety, then there is no problem. But if we not, we need a hypothetical smaller interim fighter for our possible 10k to 20k pound output national engines.

Edit: (insert facepalm emote) dBSPL was alredy mentioned these before.. And i didn't noticed until now... ://////
 
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Saithan

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Germany blocks Eurofighter sale to Türkiye 'citing Eastmed drilling concerns'​

ANKARA​

Germany blocks Eurofighter sale to Türkiye citing Eastmed drilling concerns

Germany, a key member of the quartet consortium producing the Eurofighter Typhoon, is reportedly hesitatant to sell the advanced jets to Türkiye, citing concerns over the latter's natural gas drilling activities in the eastern Mediterranean, according to sources in local media.

Berlin's reluctance stems from decisions made by the EU Council in 2019, during a crisis between Türkiye and Greece, where sanctions were imposed on Ankara over its exploration activities in the eastern Mediterranean, showcasing the EU's support for Cyprus.

Last week, Türkiye's Defense Minister Yaşar Güler declared the nation's intention to acquire Eurofighter jets, opting for them over the controversial F-35s from the United States. This decision follows Türkiye's expulsion from the F-35 program in 2019, making the modernization of the country's air force a top priority.

Güler said Türkiye aims to purchase 40 Eurofighters, asserting that the U.K. and Spain have committed to persuading Germany to agree to the deal. The Eurofighter is a collaborative effort involving Germany, the U.K., Spain and Italy.

Sources suggest that diplomatic tensions between NATO allies and Türkiye, exacerbated by the latter's acquisition of Russian S-400 missile systems, contribute significantly to Germany's decision. President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's recent condemnation of Israel as a "terrorist state" further complicates matters, as reported by Bloomberg.

Erdoğan, on his return from a recent trip to Germany, stated that he and Chancellor Olaf Scholz had not discussed the Eurofighter procurement. Erdoğan remarked, "They can give us these planes if they want. If not, do we have no doors to knock on? So many."

In another development, Türkiye and the United Kingdom have signed a blueprint to deepen security and defense ties. British Defense Minister Grant Shapps, during his visit to Ankara on Nov. 23, engaged in discussions with his Turkish counterpart on regional and security matters, along with ongoing cooperation in the defense industry.

Germany had previously criticized Turkish military operations in northern Syria, suspended the modernization of Leopard tanks in Turkish possession and halted the sale of tanks.

Similarly, Germany's attitude affected Türkiye's Altay tank project, with plans to involve a German company for the tanks' engines put on hold, citing concerns related to operations in Syria.

Meanwhile, despite Türkiye's official request to purchase 40 new F-16s and 79 modernization kits from the U.S. as an alternative to the F-35, formal approval from the Congress remains pending, facing objections that have slowed down the process.

__________________________________________

Told you guys, so unless we see the other partners buying out Germany from the consortium then we're not getting EF.

But the buyout would be a very interesting thing to see. IF it ever happens, and I don't think Europe is ready to break cooperation on that level.
 

Ripley

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But the buyout would be a very interesting thing to see. IF it ever happens, and I don't think Europe is ready to break cooperation on that level.
Thank you. So, maybe we, Turks should stop making fantastic decisions on behalf of the consortium members like “kick Germany out” or “buy them out”. Btw, I’m referring to collective ‘Turkish solution’ to this particular problem, not the general opinion of the forum at large.

Anyway, nothing new here. So, keep on keeping on.
 

Fuzuli NL

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Germany blocks Eurofighter sale to Türkiye 'citing Eastmed drilling concerns'​

ANKARA​

Germany blocks Eurofighter sale to Türkiye citing Eastmed drilling concerns

Germany, a key member of the quartet consortium producing the Eurofighter Typhoon, is reportedly hesitatant to sell the advanced jets to Türkiye, citing concerns over the latter's natural gas drilling activities in the eastern Mediterranean, according to sources in local media.

Berlin's reluctance stems from decisions made by the EU Council in 2019, during a crisis between Türkiye and Greece, where sanctions were imposed on Ankara over its exploration activities in the eastern Mediterranean, showcasing the EU's support for Cyprus.

Last week, Türkiye's Defense Minister Yaşar Güler declared the nation's intention to acquire Eurofighter jets, opting for them over the controversial F-35s from the United States. This decision follows Türkiye's expulsion from the F-35 program in 2019, making the modernization of the country's air force a top priority.

Güler said Türkiye aims to purchase 40 Eurofighters, asserting that the U.K. and Spain have committed to persuading Germany to agree to the deal. The Eurofighter is a collaborative effort involving Germany, the U.K., Spain and Italy.

Sources suggest that diplomatic tensions between NATO allies and Türkiye, exacerbated by the latter's acquisition of Russian S-400 missile systems, contribute significantly to Germany's decision. President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's recent condemnation of Israel as a "terrorist state" further complicates matters, as reported by Bloomberg.

Erdoğan, on his return from a recent trip to Germany, stated that he and Chancellor Olaf Scholz had not discussed the Eurofighter procurement. Erdoğan remarked, "They can give us these planes if they want. If not, do we have no doors to knock on? So many."

In another development, Türkiye and the United Kingdom have signed a blueprint to deepen security and defense ties. British Defense Minister Grant Shapps, during his visit to Ankara on Nov. 23, engaged in discussions with his Turkish counterpart on regional and security matters, along with ongoing cooperation in the defense industry.

Germany had previously criticized Turkish military operations in northern Syria, suspended the modernization of Leopard tanks in Turkish possession and halted the sale of tanks.

Similarly, Germany's attitude affected Türkiye's Altay tank project, with plans to involve a German company for the tanks' engines put on hold, citing concerns related to operations in Syria.

Meanwhile, despite Türkiye's official request to purchase 40 new F-16s and 79 modernization kits from the U.S. as an alternative to the F-35, formal approval from the Congress remains pending, facing objections that have slowed down the process.

__________________________________________

Told you guys, so unless we see the other partners buying out Germany from the consortium then we're not getting EF.

But the buyout would be a very interesting thing to see. IF it ever happens, and I don't think Europe is ready to break cooperation on that level.
Not surprised, thanks to the dumbest mainstream media in Europe, they've made Türkiye an enemy regardless.
Even their once respected media outlets are behaving like tabloids. A disgrace.
I hope that turns out to be to our own advantage.
 

Ryder

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Germany blocks Eurofighter sale to Türkiye 'citing Eastmed drilling concerns'​

ANKARA​

Germany blocks Eurofighter sale to Türkiye citing Eastmed drilling concerns

Germany, a key member of the quartet consortium producing the Eurofighter Typhoon, is reportedly hesitatant to sell the advanced jets to Türkiye, citing concerns over the latter's natural gas drilling activities in the eastern Mediterranean, according to sources in local media.

Berlin's reluctance stems from decisions made by the EU Council in 2019, during a crisis between Türkiye and Greece, where sanctions were imposed on Ankara over its exploration activities in the eastern Mediterranean, showcasing the EU's support for Cyprus.

Last week, Türkiye's Defense Minister Yaşar Güler declared the nation's intention to acquire Eurofighter jets, opting for them over the controversial F-35s from the United States. This decision follows Türkiye's expulsion from the F-35 program in 2019, making the modernization of the country's air force a top priority.

Güler said Türkiye aims to purchase 40 Eurofighters, asserting that the U.K. and Spain have committed to persuading Germany to agree to the deal. The Eurofighter is a collaborative effort involving Germany, the U.K., Spain and Italy.

Sources suggest that diplomatic tensions between NATO allies and Türkiye, exacerbated by the latter's acquisition of Russian S-400 missile systems, contribute significantly to Germany's decision. President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's recent condemnation of Israel as a "terrorist state" further complicates matters, as reported by Bloomberg.

Erdoğan, on his return from a recent trip to Germany, stated that he and Chancellor Olaf Scholz had not discussed the Eurofighter procurement. Erdoğan remarked, "They can give us these planes if they want. If not, do we have no doors to knock on? So many."

In another development, Türkiye and the United Kingdom have signed a blueprint to deepen security and defense ties. British Defense Minister Grant Shapps, during his visit to Ankara on Nov. 23, engaged in discussions with his Turkish counterpart on regional and security matters, along with ongoing cooperation in the defense industry.

Germany had previously criticized Turkish military operations in northern Syria, suspended the modernization of Leopard tanks in Turkish possession and halted the sale of tanks.

Similarly, Germany's attitude affected Türkiye's Altay tank project, with plans to involve a German company for the tanks' engines put on hold, citing concerns related to operations in Syria.

Meanwhile, despite Türkiye's official request to purchase 40 new F-16s and 79 modernization kits from the U.S. as an alternative to the F-35, formal approval from the Congress remains pending, facing objections that have slowed down the process.

__________________________________________

Told you guys, so unless we see the other partners buying out Germany from the consortium then we're not getting EF.

But the buyout would be a very interesting thing to see. IF it ever happens, and I don't think Europe is ready to break cooperation on that level.

The Germans

The worlds biggest laughing stock in geopolitics since 1945.
 

Brave Janissary

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Many people dont love Tranche 1 but their solid state radar almost same performance with rafale's aesa and also have less rcs than rafale with this values two fighter detect eachother almost same ranges. And in this ranges aim-120c and gökdoğan very capable range capability of meteor doesnt effect the combat. (But no escape zone and speed advantage of meteor already problem.)

Detection Capabilities of fighters via defence.pk
Opera Anlık Görüntü_2023-12-05_104156_pdf.defence.pk.png



Rcs's of fighter via globalsecurity
Opera Anlık Görüntü_2023-12-05_104242_www.globalsecurity.org.png


A little another point F-16 C B30 also have great rcs and good thrust weight ratio and more max speed than rafale also near climb rate when compared Rafale. We must focus create a capable air to air fighter from block 30 with help of özgür + aesa + irst + twin bvr launcher + gökdoğan&gökhan .
 
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Afif

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The problem is old EF2000 PESA radar can be deceived with Spectra's DRFM jamming. (As shown with Gripen's performance against EF2000 in Red flag)

And these open source RCS values are often contradictory.
 
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DBdev

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Many people dont love Tranche 1 but their solid state radar almost same performance with rafale's aesa and also have less rcs than rafale with this values two fighter detect eachother almost same ranges. And in this ranges aim-120c and gökdoğan very capable range capability of meteor doesnt effect the combat. (But no escape zone and speed advantage of meteor already problem.)

Detection Capabilities of fighters via defence.pk
View attachment 63595


Rcs's of fighter via globalsecurity
View attachment 63594

A little another point F-16 C B30 also have great rcs and good thrust weight ratio and more max speed than rafale also near climb rate when compared Rafale. We must focus create a capable air to air fighter from block 30 with help of özgür + aesa + irst + twin bvr launcher + gökdoğan&gökhan .
F-16 RCS is 4-5 m2 not 1.2. That number could be for the American F-16s alone. Since they have various advanced coatings against both IR and radar called HAVE GLASS up to v5. Our F16s either completely lack or just have some very basic anti radar paint which doesn't make any meaningful difference.

1 Greek Rafale can in theory carry 10 meteors and could take out 10 Turkish F16s. Easily...
 
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boredaf

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1 Greek Rafale can in theory carry 10 meteors and could take out 10 Turkish F16s. Easily...
Sure kid, Turkey sucks, our engineers and airforce is the worse and we are fucked. Happy?

Fucking hell can't believe you really said "Easily..."
 

dBSPL

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(...) Going even further, in order to avoid wasting time on a new platform design, it may not be as long a road as one might think to license a base design of any non-NATO fighter jet from a country other than those that are hesitant to give us aircraft, and equip it entirely with indigenous electronic and mechanical systems. I mean, of course, it is a long way, but it seems that for procurement within NATO will not be as shortcut as it was thought to be.
Coincidence. Or the forum has a close following. I don't know who Colonel Igor Korotchenko is or which institution he is an analyst for, but he mentioned that the production license (for the SU-35?) could be granted. Conflict and a few other X accounts also shared this information on the same day.

 

boredaf

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Coincidence. Or the forum has a close following. I don't know who Colonel Igor Korotchenko is or which institution he is an analyst for, but he mentioned that the production license (for the SU-35?) could be granted. Conflict and a few other X accounts also shared this information on the same day.

It would be just like us to license build the plane, Su-35, that Ukraine shot down using Western aa systems 6 months ago. I desperately hope this is a just Russian bullshitting to muddy the waters and nothing more.
 

BaburKhan

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It's just an Offer from Russia, I don't think Turkey will go for SU-35. Maybe Turkey is facing more CATSAA than for S-400.
 

boredaf

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It's just an Offer from Russia, I don't think Turkey will go for SU-35. Maybe Turkey is facing more CATSAA than for S-400.
Forget CATSAA, if we are stupid enough to go for a Russian plane after their invasion of Ukraine we could say goodbye to every single part, from engine to chips, we get from any country in the West. It would be one of the single stupidest things we could do and it would be over a subpar jet.

But again, I think, well more like hope, this is just a Russian hardliner trying to stick bullshit at the wall.
 

BalkanTurk90

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Forget CATSAA, if we are stupid enough to go for a Russian plane after their invasion of Ukraine we could say goodbye to every single part, from engine to chips, we get from any country in the West. It would be one of the single stupidest things we could do and it would be over a subpar jet.

But again, I think, well more like hope, this is just a Russian hardliner trying to stick bullshit at the wall.
Bro its not anymore 1990/2000 , Chips and other parts can be easy produced in east aslo 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
 

boredaf

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Bro its not anymore 1990/2000 , Chips and other parts can be easy produced in east aslo 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
There is a reason China has been getting ready to invade Taiwan and its not because of their nationalism. There are certain things, especially the highest tech chips among them, that "the East" cannot produce yet. It isn't 2000s yes, the gap is even wider.
 

BalkanTurk90

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There is a reason China has been getting ready to invade Taiwan and its not because of their nationalism. There are certain things, especially the highest tech chips among them, that "the East" cannot produce yet. It isn't 2000s yes, the gap is even wider.
So small china (taiwan) can produce high tech chips while huge superpower china cant? Bro how u finds those kinds of infro?
 

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