TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Spitfire9]

View attachment 63526

Swiss Air Force's evaluation of all three Euro-canard.

I guess that dates back 10 years or more so those aircraft will have progressed in capability. American content is to be avoided, I assume. The only 2 non-Russian/Chinese types without US engines are Rafale and Typhoon. As we know, Eurofighter is unavailable at the moment. Rafale production slots are booked up for years, even if France were prepared to supply.

 

[boredaf]

The question is, between these two parallel lines, would drawing the third one be as long and costly as the other two lines, or would it be very practical and cost-effective to create a fork?

Imo, we would stretch ourselves too thin by trying to add a completely new design/production line between Hürjet and TF-x. We only have so many qualified people that can work on these things and we are probably already pushing them to their limits.

And not to mention, who is going to let us license build a jet? None of the countries that refuse to sell us the planes themselves would do it. Russia's designs are way different than what we've been used to building and on top of that, Russia is a pariah state now and making any new deals with them is not just shooting ourselves in the foot but basically shoving a shotgun up our asses and giving the trigger to US to pull. Not to mention it is Russia and I'd rather not betray Ukraine by doing business with them, because fuck Russia.

That only leaves China and frankly they have the closest thing to F-16 in J-10, but again, why would they let us license build it when they could sell it themselves and if we did buy it from them we are back to shotgun in the ass.

Our best bet right now is the continue trying to get Eurofighters and/or F-16s and powering through with Hürjet and Kaan.

 

[Quasar]

- your RCS is much smaller
-your radar is much more powerful
-you operate at more than 10000ft higher altitudes than your adversary

most probable outcome is your adversary is now bussy defending your BVR missiles

 

[Zafer]

The Hürjet project has reached a very advanced stage. With a planned delivery date of 2025, the testing and verification phases of the aircraft avionics should already be at the completion stage. So, almost all of avionics incl FCS, communication systems and related equipment, human-machine interfaces and computing systems, navigation systems and antennas etc., flight control, cockpit and commutator systems, display systems and surfaces and all related components are currently in the testing process. Mechanically: landing gears, various types of actuators for supersonic speeds and tens of hundreds of other subsystems that mostly common to the supersonic AJT and fighter jets.

I don't know if we can assume that one of the outcomes of the parallel running of the KAAN and Hurjet projects is a flexible design logic for the many subsystems developed, but basically we are currently preparing hundreds of subsystems for two different aircraft, and the design team of each system generally consists of the same engineering teams.

So I think we have two parallel lines one is Hurjet and other is KAAN. The question is, between these two parallel lines, would drawing the third one be as long and costly as the other two lines, or would it be very practical and cost-effective to create a fork?

Creating a combat jet that uses the Hurjet infrastructure, but with more than twice the combat weight, may be more beneficial than waiting at the door for the EF-T4 and F-16-B70, which are at risk of dragging on until the 2030s. Going even further, in order to avoid wasting time on a new platform design, it may not be as long a road as one might think to license a base design of any non-NATO fighter jet from a country other than those that are hesitant to give us aircraft, and equip it entirely with indigenous electronic and mechanical systems. I mean, of course, it is a long way, but it seems that for procurement within NATO will not be as shortcut as it was thought to be.

Use a pair of TF10000 to make a small fighter that can also double as a UCAV with 90% commonality and 100% Turkish made.

 

[Afif]

This doesn't reflect where the Eurofighter is right now though, so it is quite disingenuous and borderline disinformation to use this as a comparison.

Well, I didn't know it was from 2008 until @Quasar pointed out.

I thought it was from recent competition when ultimately Switzerland chose F-35.

 

[boredaf]

Use a pair of TF10000 to make a small fighter that can also double as a UCAV with 90% commonality and 100% Turkish made.

I thought about this as well, two TF-10000 would put us around the thrust of original Gripen with F404 engines (well, Volvo equivalent of that), but would be lower than Gripen E with F414. I think this could've been the better way to go instead of Hürjet from the start, but I don't think we have the capability to sustain 3 jet fighter projects at the same time.

As I said before, we are going to have to power through with Hürjet and hope that light attack configuration won't be too far behind after 2025, and wait for Kaan.

 

[Afif]

But for a start, Typhoon’s RCS is much smaller.

I read both aircraft having small RCS than the other one. I doubt Typhoon RCS is much smaller than Rafale or vice-versa. They have probbaly similar RCS. Unless there is specific verified data that I don't know about.

 

[Sanchez]

Well, I didn't know it was from 2008 until @Quasar pointed out.

I thought it was from recent competition when ultimately Switzerland chose F-35.

Full leaked report.

https://disco-legacy-data.s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/public/upload/1/2/12332.pdf

 

[Quasar]

I read both aircraft having small RCS than the other one. I doubt Typhoon RCS is much smaller than Rafale or vice-versa. They have probbaly similar RCS.

Just as an ordinary man it reminds me FA 18 hornet and Super hornet.... Rafale having smaller RCS doesnt make much sense

 

[Zafer]

I thought about this as well, two TF-10000 would put us around the thrust of original Gripen with F404 engines (well, Volvo equivalent of that), but would be lower than Gripen E with F414. I think this could've been the better way to go instead of Hürjet from the start, but I don't think we have the capability to sustain 3 jet fighter projects at the same time.

As I said before, we are going to have to power through with Hürjet and hope that light attack configuration won't be too far behind after 2025, and wait for Kaan.

We do not have a domestic engine for Hürjet, but we do have one for a twin engine Hürjet+. Talking about money, who would think we could afford making so many projects at the same time like we are making now but yet we are. Once the training version of Hürjet is copmleted which is not far away a twin engine Hürjet can be started to also match the timeline of the engine itself. This version may even be more suitable for carrier based operations.

 

[Sanchez]

Full leaked report.

https://disco-legacy-data.s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/public/upload/1/2/12332.pdf

adding on this, rereading the report again with a buyer's eye ( ) if Turkey buys EF-2000, it will be for a2a. If i remember right, tested EF here was a Tranche 2. EF came close to Rafale in every relevant test. And this report was bashed in the past for heavy Rafale support by Gripen boys, don't know how real are those claims are tho.

 

[dBSPL]

Actually, what I'm talking about is not starting a completely new jet project. Developing the Hürjet program through two airframes. One is AJT focused and the other is a fighter jet with F-16 B70 level operational capability and higher lift capacity. If it is designed with the same engine /as single and dual engine variants/, perhaps 90/95% common logistics, and again almost entirely common avionics infrastructure, maybe something similar to the AESA suit that will be included in KAAN, can be integrated, thanks to higher power. If we had a 30,000 lb engine ready for KAAN, maybe things would be easier.

I think the problem may be financing the development of this aircraft, but I am not yet convinced that this will create an unbearable additional labor burden. Because TAI officials themselves have created many speculations on the possibility of Hurjet fork many times before, one of which is Hürjet Naval. And I'm sure they have a serious analysis catalog and various test designs on this subject.

Of course, I am aware that I am oversimplifying the issue for making it debatable. What I am basically talking about is, integrate the avionics mechanical systems you developed for MMU and Hurjet into a third mainframe in a different package. Not only in terms of development, but the real headache is, let's say you developed such a prototype, even production planning for it is a cost and serious headache in itself, lets aside test process.

How long will it take to develop this aircraft? 10-12 years? Then there is no such option. We can turn our entire concentration to F-16 modernization. 3-4 years? Then there may be an option that can catch the ready purchase schedule.

How much does the development cost? +10 billion dollars? It is very expensive, when you add this cost to the unit production cost you almost reach the MMU cost. A few billion dollars? It can definitely be said that the unit cost of the aircraft to be produced, including development, will still be below the purchased jet cost.

You can also offer this platform to foreign markets without asking anyone. One of the popular topics on Twitter is Argentina and the Latino market. Small African countries in the Sahel are moving towards confederation and so more solid army structures. Arms embargoes on some of the countries we support are being lifted or relaxed. In defense, the number of countries that we have strategic partners with increasingly stronger financing tools, such as Malaysia, or at least for which we are critical solution partners, is increasing.

It is forbidden to buy Russian planes, there is great pressure, buyers are canceling their contracts. However, the same group of countries are under the strict control of the USA and the states in its orbit regarding arms sales. Consider that Egypt still not have mid-range air-to-air missiles. To achieve this, Algeria relied heavily on Russian logistics and so on...

Anyway, I don't want to make it too long. The difficulties of this issue are great, I have no objection. But it promises a high risk-return ratio on return side. And it seems as if conditions will force us to do this at some point even if forget all these export possibilities. If we're heading there, I'm not a fan of wasting time.

 

[Aqerdf]

What if future TF-10k engine would become online not 10k, but instead 10k and 15k or just 15k pound output?

With this, we could create our own Rafale, similar to Kaan's IOC date but with FOC capability (being 4.5 gen / easier collabs with foreign suppliers like Hürjet)

A bit far fetched idea (creating TF-15000), i know.. :/

 

[Samba]

I think our road map should follow having 2 fighter jets (one being KAAN and the other one is HürJet+) 1 training (Hürjet itself) and 4 tf engines (tf6000, tf10000, tf16000 or alike and tf35000).

Tf6000 and tf10000 would be of great use for Kızılelma, Anka3 and similar models. Tf16000 or alike would be sufficient for HürJet training model, 2xtf10000 or 2xtf16000 or alike would be perfect for HürJet+ light fighter. Tf35000 is for KAAN obviously.

For now we are working on HürJet and KAAN as well as tf6000, tf10000 and tf35000. Once these projects are mature enough, progression will be faster and easier to fill remaining gaps. This is why next 5 years is crucial and not so many F35s will be delivered to change the balance in a day.

We have time but we need to know what to do and continue working hard determinantly.

 

[uçuyorum]

If we make KAAN engine, it will be stronger than the engine that powers F16. Naturally instead of two TF10k, we could make like a single engine 4.5gen F16 successor after several years after KAAN is in serial production using parts from both Özgür and KAAN because KAAN will be seriously expensive to buy large numbers, and it could even be like a carrier capable fighter. Something in the middle of F16 and F35C

 

[Zafer]

Actually, what I'm talking about is not starting a completely new jet project. Developing the Hürjet program through two airframes. One is AJT focused and the other is a fighter jet with F-16 B70 level operational capability and higher lift capacity. If it is designed with the same engine /as single and dual engine variants/, perhaps 90/95% common logistics, and again almost entirely common avionics infrastructure, maybe something similar to the AESA suit that will be included in KAAN, can be integrated, thanks to higher power. If we had a 30,000 lb engine ready for KAAN, maybe things would be easier.

I think the problem may be financing the development of this aircraft, but I am not yet convinced that this will create an unbearable additional labor burden. Because TAI officials themselves have created many speculations on the possibility of Hurjet fork many times before, one of which is Hürjet Naval. And I'm sure they have a serious analysis catalog and various test designs on this subject.

Of course, I am aware that I am oversimplifying the issue for making it debatable. What I am basically talking about is, integrate the avionics mechanical systems you developed for MMU and Hurjet into a third mainframe in a different package. Not only in terms of development, but the real headache is, let's say you developed such a prototype, even production planning for it is a cost and serious headache in itself, lets aside test process.

How long will it take to develop this aircraft? 10-12 years? Then there is no such option. We can turn our entire concentration to F-16 modernization. 3-4 years? Then there may be an option that can catch the ready purchase schedule.

How much does the development cost? +10 billion dollars? It is very expensive, when you add this cost to the unit production cost you almost reach the MMU cost. A few billion dollars? It can definitely be said that the unit cost of the aircraft to be produced, including development, will still be below the purchased jet cost.

You can also offer this platform to foreign markets without asking anyone. One of the popular topics on Twitter is Argentina and the Latino market. Small African countries in the Sahel are moving towards confederation and so more solid army structures. Arms embargoes on some of the countries we support are being lifted or relaxed. In defense, the number of countries that we have strategic partners with increasingly stronger financing tools, such as Malaysia, or at least for which we are critical solution partners, is increasing.

It is forbidden to buy Russian planes, there is great pressure, buyers are canceling their contracts. However, the same group of countries are under the strict control of the USA and the states in its orbit regarding arms sales. Consider that Egypt still not have mid-range air-to-air missiles. To achieve this, Algeria relied heavily on Russian logistics and so on...

Anyway, I don't want to make it too long. The difficulties of this issue are great, I have no objection. But it promises a high risk-return ratio on return side. And it seems as if conditions will force us to do this at some point even if forget all these export possibilities. If we're heading there, I'm not a fan of wasting time.

No engine no plane, yes engine plenty plane.

We can only dream of making fighters around the engines we make, and the only engine we hope to get in a few year is the TF10k.

EDIT: Having said that, I believe we can make the TF35k engine far earlier than people speculate.

 

[Kartal1]

Actually, what I'm talking about is not starting a completely new jet project. Developing the Hürjet program through two airframes. One is AJT focused and the other is a fighter jet with F-16 B70 level operational capability and higher lift capacity. If it is designed with the same engine /as single and dual engine variants/, perhaps 90/95% common logistics, and again almost entirely common avionics infrastructure, maybe something similar to the AESA suit that will be included in KAAN, can be integrated, thanks to higher power. If we had a 30,000 lb engine ready for KAAN, maybe things would be easier.

I think the problem may be financing the development of this aircraft, but I am not yet convinced that this will create an unbearable additional labor burden. Because TAI officials themselves have created many speculations on the possibility of Hurjet fork many times before, one of which is Hürjet Naval. And I'm sure they have a serious analysis catalog and various test designs on this subject.

Of course, I am aware that I am oversimplifying the issue for making it debatable. What I am basically talking about is, integrate the avionics mechanical systems you developed for MMU and Hurjet into a third mainframe in a different package. Not only in terms of development, but the real headache is, let's say you developed such a prototype, even production planning for it is a cost and serious headache in itself, lets aside test process.

How long will it take to develop this aircraft? 10-12 years? Then there is no such option. We can turn our entire concentration to F-16 modernization. 3-4 years? Then there may be an option that can catch the ready purchase schedule.

How much does the development cost? +10 billion dollars? It is very expensive, when you add this cost to the unit production cost you almost reach the MMU cost. A few billion dollars? It can definitely be said that the unit cost of the aircraft to be produced, including development, will still be below the purchased jet cost.

You can also offer this platform to foreign markets without asking anyone. One of the popular topics on Twitter is Argentina and the Latino market. Small African countries in the Sahel are moving towards confederation and so more solid army structures. Arms embargoes on some of the countries we support are being lifted or relaxed. In defense, the number of countries that we have strategic partners with increasingly stronger financing tools, such as Malaysia, or at least for which we are critical solution partners, is increasing.

It is forbidden to buy Russian planes, there is great pressure, buyers are canceling their contracts. However, the same group of countries are under the strict control of the USA and the states in its orbit regarding arms sales. Consider that Egypt still not have mid-range air-to-air missiles. To achieve this, Algeria relied heavily on Russian logistics and so on...

Anyway, I don't want to make it too long. The difficulties of this issue are great, I have no objection. But it promises a high risk-return ratio on return side. And it seems as if conditions will force us to do this at some point even if forget all these export possibilities. If we're heading there, I'm not a fan of wasting time.

Why would we develop a third platform for this while we have KAAN which is supposed to fly this year? If we need something similar to F-16 performance why wouldn't we use a crippled version of KAAN without some of its 5th Gen capabilities? Also isn't that the logic behind the first batch which will be delivered with F110 engines after all?

Also I think the numbers of our multirole F-16s is more than enough for most of the cases. Our only problem would only be lack of air superiority fighter that will supposedly be filled with a Eurofighter purchase and a stealth deep strike capability which will be gained with Anka 3/4.

 

[uçuyorum]

Why would we develop a third platform for this while we have KAAN which is supposed to fly this year? If we need something similar to F-16 performance why wouldn't we use a crippled version of KAAN without some of its 5th Gen capabilities? Also isn't that the logic behind the first batch which will be delivered with F110 engines after all?

Also I think the numbers of our multirole F-16s is more than enough for most of the cases. Our only problem would only be lack of air superiority fighter that will supposedly be filled with a Eurofighter purchase and a stealth deep strike capability which will be gained with Anka 3/4.

Using military thrust, it would cost 16000-20000$ (8000 -10000 galon for F22 ) an hour just for KAAN'S fuel. Multiply that by 100 planes and 200 hours of flight each year and that's 320 million usd

 

[Aqerdf]

Unpopular thinking:

Our Air Force doesn't needed urgent advanced jet trainers, yes ? They only talk about Hürjet when there is a talk about Turkish Stars (as NF-5 replacement), Lead-in Fighter Training (F-5 2000 replacement) or Air Policing (F-5 2000 replacement).. They're happy with their modernised T-38M Arı's for now...


Our Armed Forces also doesn't urgently needed ATAK-2's. Hence they're giving priority to 11.5+ tonne General Purpose Helicopter Development and T-629 Development.

So as it looks like we don't need Hürjet as an Advanced Trainer at least to 2030s. Like Hürkuş situation (we have KT-1T so there is no need to buy for new trainer aircraft but TAİ needs to build it anyway because of gaining more experience for creating things from scratch).


What i was trying to say is, Hürjet, as an advanced jet trainer, is almost ready (4 years at most ?). Maybe we can pursue another project, like TEBDF. Like jumping from ATAK-II to T-629 & 11.5+ tonne General Purpose Helicopter Development Projects.

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Decrased Kaan (something like F-15C / EX) is too big to powering it with our own solutions, in this decade. And those mentioned crisis scenarios contains ''no F110 engine for TR'' generally. If we can secure F110s without anxiety, then there is no problem. But if we not, we need a hypothetical smaller interim fighter for our possible 10k to 20k pound output national engines.

Edit: (insert facepalm emote) dBSPL was alredy mentioned these before.. And i didn't noticed until now... ://////

 

[Saithan]

Germany blocks Eurofighter sale to Türkiye 'citing Eastmed drilling concerns'​

ANKARA​

Germany, a key member of the quartet consortium producing the Eurofighter Typhoon, is reportedly hesitatant to sell the advanced jets to Türkiye, citing concerns over the latter's natural gas drilling activities in the eastern Mediterranean, according to sources in local media.

Berlin's reluctance stems from decisions made by the EU Council in 2019, during a crisis between Türkiye and Greece, where sanctions were imposed on Ankara over its exploration activities in the eastern Mediterranean, showcasing the EU's support for Cyprus.

Last week, Türkiye's Defense Minister Yaşar Güler declared the nation's intention to acquire Eurofighter jets, opting for them over the controversial F-35s from the United States. This decision follows Türkiye's expulsion from the F-35 program in 2019, making the modernization of the country's air force a top priority.

Güler said Türkiye aims to purchase 40 Eurofighters, asserting that the U.K. and Spain have committed to persuading Germany to agree to the deal. The Eurofighter is a collaborative effort involving Germany, the U.K., Spain and Italy.

Sources suggest that diplomatic tensions between NATO allies and Türkiye, exacerbated by the latter's acquisition of Russian S-400 missile systems, contribute significantly to Germany's decision. President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's recent condemnation of Israel as a "terrorist state" further complicates matters, as reported by Bloomberg.

Erdoğan, on his return from a recent trip to Germany, stated that he and Chancellor Olaf Scholz had not discussed the Eurofighter procurement. Erdoğan remarked, "They can give us these planes if they want. If not, do we have no doors to knock on? So many."

In another development, Türkiye and the United Kingdom have signed a blueprint to deepen security and defense ties. British Defense Minister Grant Shapps, during his visit to Ankara on Nov. 23, engaged in discussions with his Turkish counterpart on regional and security matters, along with ongoing cooperation in the defense industry.

Germany had previously criticized Turkish military operations in northern Syria, suspended the modernization of Leopard tanks in Turkish possession and halted the sale of tanks.

Similarly, Germany's attitude affected Türkiye's Altay tank project, with plans to involve a German company for the tanks' engines put on hold, citing concerns related to operations in Syria.

Meanwhile, despite Türkiye's official request to purchase 40 new F-16s and 79 modernization kits from the U.S. as an alternative to the F-35, formal approval from the Congress remains pending, facing objections that have slowed down the process.

Germany blocks Eurofighter sale to Türkiye 'citing Eastmed drilling concerns' - Türkiye News

Germany, a key member of the quartet consortium producing the Eurofighter Typhoon, is reportedly hesitatant to sell the advanced jets to Türkiye, citing concerns over the latter's natural gas drilling activities in the eastern Mediterranean, according to sources in local media.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com

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Told you guys, so unless we see the other partners buying out Germany from the consortium then we're not getting EF.

But the buyout would be a very interesting thing to see. IF it ever happens, and I don't think Europe is ready to break cooperation on that level.